I am getting ready to trade for the Manton .470 listed on Guns America. The Manton is listed as a sidelock action. I noticed while going through some old books that the 1995 Edition 86 of Shooters Bible had a 1930's Heym sideplate action in .405 on the cover. In comparing the engraving on the Manton to the engraving on the Heym they appear identical. Additionally the rear sight on the Manton is not filed in a shallow V like most English guns, but is more of a German design. It appears to me that the Manton was probably built by Heym. The real question I have is looking at the photographs of the Manton can you tell for sure if it's a sidelock action or is it a sideplate boxlock action. My H&H and the Merkels I have that are sidelocks have visible pins which I don't see on the Manton. The difference between price in a sidelock and sideplated boxlock is considerable. The owner will be out of town until next week to prevent any discussion on the action type until then. I know many of you are experts on this type of thing and might be able to tell me exactly what type action the Manton has from the photographs of the rifle on Guns America. Thanks in advance.

Are you referring to the one at First Stop? Mark there is a great guy, and prices used guns quite aggressively. You mention the "owner" is away. Do you mean Mark, or the actual owner of the rifle, if it's a consignment.?

Thanks Biebs, The gun is a consignment and Mark will be away until Monday so I can't ask about the gun until then. Mark is a great guy and I have traded guns with him many times over the years. I became curious about the gun when I saw the one on the old issue of Shooters Bible and wondered if it was a pinless sidelock, a sidelock or a sideplated boxlock and if Heym made it. I just don't know enough about them to tell for sure. All the sidelocks I have had over the years have had pins.

Yes, I know what you mean....pin-less sidelocks are a rarity.

This is one of those guns that I have come to covet. I have looked at it for at least 2 years. I remember Peter Hathaway Capstick saying that about one of the hunter's guns he guided. It was a 475 #2. Double rifle do something to you, especially extremely beautiful ones like the Manton.

With no pins and two large screws my vote is for a plated box lock. Pinless sidelocks are as rare as hen's teeth as memntioned above. If indeed a box lock, 30K seems quite high. The engraving pattern is a standard pattern sold by Manton. I've seen it on several doubles over the decades.

Thanks Cal. I can't believe that I was just getting ready to send you a message about the gun because I knew you would know. I want the gun but I could probably deal on a boxlock .577 at this price instead of a .470. The double rifle market is complicated.

I find it unusual that there are residual stamps on the barrels ahead of the shoe lump.
Almost as if the barrels themselves were stamped and then the shoe lump soldered and itself stamped for proof.

This model of Manton does show up occasionally and they tend to be priced lower than an English Manton - I don’t know why it’s at $28K - about $10K overpriced IMO.

If you’re a Ghost In The Darkness fan, this is the model rifle that Michael Douglas used in the movie, not an H&H.

Wow. This is something from what you have at the bottom of your post about the Ghost In The Darkness fan. I almost sold my Army/Navy Lee Speed in .303 which was just like the one in the movie on this very site. I want the Manton but it appears I have opened up a real can of worms about the rifle. I want it to be what it is listed as so I can buy it and have what I have always wanted,

You can get a box lock .577 nitro for that price or a .577 bpe for 10K less (I know as I have one for sale). I am in Africa now so my reply may be a bit slow.
Cal

Thanks Cal, You guys are certainly a wealth of information and probably saved me a lot of money by your observations. I'm very thankful. I'll have the shop owner touch base with the consigner and see if they can determine exactly what the rifle is. I hope you have a wonderful time in Africa Cal, you certainly have lived a wonderful life with all the adventures you have lived.

Mark's shop can take the sideplate off to be sure. A true pinless sidelock would be awesome!

Thanks Biebs, I sent Mark an email to check with the owner of the rifle and see if he could determine what action it has.

It looks German to me, and I also think the engraving is sub par, while still beautiful.

With that budget I could give you a list of ten much cooler doubles.

Yes this is an interesting gun when you look at it. Huvius brought out a really interesting point in his comment about the barrels partial stamping ahead of the shoe lump which appears to have been covered when the shoe lump was installed.

I received three close up photographs of the Manton to try and determine if the gun is a sidelock or sideplated boxlock. The gun is currently away from the shop consigning it so the dealer can't take off the side plate to examine the lock. If anyone thinks they can look at the new photographs and make a determination as to what type action it is I would be most appreciative. I don't know that much about this type of thing and it might be impossible to tell what the action is without removing the side plate.

quote:

Hide Post
I received three close up photographs of the Manton to try and determine if the gun is a sidelock or sideplated boxlock. The gun i

Let's see the three photos.
Cal

Thanks Cal. I loaded the photographs onto an email but don't know where to send it. I also have no idea how to post a photographs on the site.

quote:

Originally posted by Tpr.1919:
Thanks Cal. I loaded the photographs onto an email but don't know where to send it. I also have no idea how to post a photographs on the site.

<pappas@mtaonline.net>

Thanks Cal. I just sent the photographs.

I don't know how the Moderators put the stars in the column for a good guy report but Cal certainly deserves all the stars you can put in the rating. He is in Africa right now and thought nothing about giving me his expert guidance on this rifle. Cal truly stands tall among the best there is in the gun world.

Here is the gun as listed in the 1926-1927 Manton Catalog. If you do a search on this forum for "Manton" you'll find several threads on this rifle.

Thanks Evans470. This sure looks like the rifle I am talking about. This is probably a stupid question but the listing says Action, Side clip, does that mean box lock with side clip or is it some type of sidelock?

Sideclips can be found on either a box lock or sidelock action, although they are much more common on a sidelock. Sideclips are the ears coming off the side of the standing breech which have been filed to engage the side of the barrels. They clearly show on the catalog picture.

Thanks squeezenhope, I have been a little confused on double rifle terminology. You can search the internet and it's hard to find a clearly defined description. More common things are clear pertaining to double rifle actions like boxlocks without plates, backactions or guns with Jones Underlever actions.

Cal’s book on double rifles will answer a lot of those questions.

Thanks Colin, I'll see if I can't order a copy from Cal.

I will be home by Sunday if all goes to plan. I printed 2000 and have 25-30 remaining. 70$ plus 16 priority post.
Cal

Thanks Cal, Let me know when you get home because I want a copy. I want one signed by you and will pay a premium for it. I have a pretty extensive library of African books I put together over the last 35 years. I want yours with all the other great hunters because you might be one of the only few ones left. You truly need to be with John Taylor and Fletcher Jamison in my collection.

Thanks for the kind words.
Email or PM anytime.
With Zimbabwe on near lockdown I will be home Saturday evening.
Cal

Cal, Could you send me a message with your mailing address and cost of your double rifle book along with shipping cost and I will send you a money order. Thanks Tpr. 1919

Thanks. I'm at:

Cal Pappas
HC 89 Box 397
Willow AK 99688

Book is $70 and 16 for priority post.
cheers,

Thanks Cal, I'll send it out today.

quote:

Originally posted by Tpr.1919:
Thanks Cal, I'll send it out today.

Check came today and book will go out Monday.I will send a tracking number.
Cal

Thanks Cal, I look forward to getting your book so I can put it in my library with the other great hunters. In going through everything I already had in those books I was able to answer my original question. There is no doubt in my mind that the Manton is a side plated boxlock and not a sidelock. I found four (4) other examples of this same gun retailed by Manton and made by Heym in other publications with photographs. These rifles had the exact engraving patterns and were in the same serial number range. Odd thing is all the other rifles were in .405 Winchester and not .470. I guess Manton being in India made these rifle for hunters looking for tigers. The double rifle market is certainly an interesting endeavor especially now 100 years after the fact. I sent the photographs to the owner so he could figure out if he now wants to sell the gun given these facts. It takes nothing away from the beauty of the gun because, it is beautiful, but not a sidelock. In any event I'm now out on a limb working another crazy deal on an A. Hollis (not and Isaac Hollis) double hammer rifle with Jones Underlever action in 500/450. We will see how that goes. The double rifle market is really something.

The Mantons I've seen with the same engraving pattern have all been .405. Winchester promoted the .405 heavily and the five major retailers in India sold them in the model 1895. I have a .405 1895 takedown, in a Westley Richards case with ammo and accessories. It has a shotgun butt, sling eyes, and the Winchester four-leaf rear sight. It was retailed by Coombes and Co. in Rangoon in the early-mid 1920s.

I have the following double rifles remaining for sale as I am selling out(over 40 already sold): 12 bore Rodda, 10-bore Manton, 577-500 no2, .577 3" bpe, and nitro in 450-400 and 450 no2. Also a few double shotguns in 12-10-and 8 bore. If anything sparks an interest, PM me your email for pics.

I remember reading an article that Dig wrote on a similar rifle but couldn't remember where....

A quick email to Dig and he pointed me in the right direction.

The write up is in the Winter 2008 Double Gun Journal. The Manton 470 in the article is described as a "sideplated boxlock ejector".

The gun in the article wears the original pre war German proof marks.

The gun for sale appears to have been reproofed in 1979 in London. I suspect the German proof marks were wiped off when the gun was reproofed.

Thanks Cal & Evans470, You have all been a big help trying to unravel the Manton. I am paring down some of my handguns too, and was using them as partial trade of the doubles I have been dealing on.

Book went out today.
Tracking is:
9505 5100 2171 1193 2275 17
Let me know when it arrives.
Cheers,
cal

Thanks Cal. I look forward to reading it.