What does Butch have set up for a regulation shooting range?

The desert

Since I live in the Sonoran Desert I think I could build me one from your detailed description-

It's probably a lot like the setting on the Roadrunner and Wile E Coyote cartoons. I've heard rifles don't leave the shop until they shoot minute of roadrunner, whatever that is. don't quote me though.

I've been to Butch's 'shooting range'. It is the desert as correctly described by Frank.

Glad to hear we are like thinkers. I do take along sticks, of course Butch has probably shot 1,000 rounds with a double to my one. hahah

Actually, I think Butch uses a rifle rest that he straps the doubles into. I don't believe he shoulders the rifle.

I believe that you are correct.

quote:

Originally posted by scutulatus:
Since I live in the Sonoran Desert I think I could build me one from your detailed description-

Just make sure there are no "Migrants" hiding in your backstop--

quote:

Originally posted by pagosawingnut:
Actually, I think Butch uses a rifle rest that he straps the doubles into. I don't believe he shoulders the rifle.

quote:

Originally posted by Use Enough Gun:
I believe that you are correct.

Many years ago Butch told me he used a rig/rest that took all human out of the process. He didn't go into detail, but many such mechanical rigs have been tried over the last century with very little success! Judging from how well the Searcy doubles regulate I have my doubts of his rig being anything like any other ones tried before!

The rig would have to simulate the way a human holds the rifle with the rifle allowed to recoil and give proper muzzle flip to work as if being held by a human shooter.
It would be my guess that if in fact he does use one, it would be only for the premary few shots then fine tuned in the normal mannor!
I would certainly love to watch his process, and examine his rig if it is true that he does use some sort of fixture!
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His setup must include a 180 pound human-like, digitally (ten) controlled apparatus which grasps the barrels firmly and allows, but subtly controls, the rifle whilst in recoil. Given how well my 450 Searcy shoots, that can only mean one thing. And you know what that is... ..a robot.

I have been there when he has shot a double rifle to check accuracy (mine). It is as pagosawingnut says.

quote:

Originally posted by Use Enough Gun:
I have been there when he has shot a double rifle to check accuracy (mine). It is as pagosawingnut says.

UEG did you take pictures or can you discribe the so-called rest/rig/jig,you chose a name, and how it works? Maybe it is a trade seceret!

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LOL,
I haven't put a rifle on my shoulder or touched the forearm in 30 years while regulating.
Just thought I'd give you all something to think about. I have a video on my phone of me regulating a 600 NE, if I get time to figure it out I'll post it here.

You could always ask Shootaway but as Quartermain recently stated, he might not have time to answer as he has too much on his mind with just a hat on!

quote:

Originally posted by BLS:
LOL,
I haven't put a rifle on my shoulder or touched the forearm in 30 years while regulating.
Just thought I'd give you all something to think about. I have a video on my phone of me regulating a 600 NE, if I get time to figure it out I'll post it here.

Thanks Butch, that I'm sure, will be an eye opener!
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I am speechless, at best, to hear of such double rifle sorcery. Three hundred years ago, you would have been burned at the stake for even saying that someone used a "fixture" to regulate a double rifle.
Mr Searcy is a genius, many of whom have been misunderstood throughout history.

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:
You could always ask Shootaway but as Quartermain recently stated, he might not have time to answer as he has too much on his mind with just a hat on!

50yds-3from the bench and one off hand-2 left barrel and 2 right

Well, George, that's as good as "minute-of-road-runner," anyway. Thanks for the post!

If I remember correctly, I think Butch uses an early model of the Lead Sled...at least that's the way I remember our shooting session...

If you go to Youtube and do a search under "double rifle regulation" you will see several regulators who work for large European companies doing their regulation using fixtures. I have a similar one and have used it successfully to regulate with, especially in the early stages.
Many times that is all that is needed. One secret is not to put much weight on it while using it to regulate. Even 5 or 10 pounds on it helps a lot. Bob

Do you hold the forend or let it free recoil?

It will be interesting to see Butchs’ film because what ever he uses, it works because his rifles regulate as well as any double rifle I have ever owned, and better than many of those were the best names from the UK.

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quote:

Originally posted by Dulltool17:
Well, George, that's as good as "minute-of-road-runner," anyway. Thanks for the post!

Thanks Doug!

Rockdoc,
I have actually done it both ways, and contrary to popular belief, if the gun is a heavy one, I have not detected any difference in the points of impact. I rest the forend on the pad of the front support but usually also hold onto the forend behind the fixture's pad.

On lighter or very heavy recoiling guns, I have to hold onto the forend, and do it very tightly, or else the gun will get away from me.

Many of the professional regulators I have watched on YouTube never touch the forend at all. Many of them even remove the forend while regulating the gun and that is the part I do not understand. Why would they do it that way? Surely the forend being on the gun should not affect the overall regulation of the gun, or does it? Bob

quote:

Originally posted by birdhunter50:
Rockdoc,
I have actually done it both ways, and contrary to popular belief, if the gun is a heavy one, I have not detected any difference in the points of impact. I rest the forend on the pad of the front support but usually also hold onto the forend behind the fixture's pad.

On lighter or very heavy recoiling guns, I have to hold onto the forend, and do it very tightly, or else the gun will get away from me.

Bob

I have found the same thing you have! The heavier a rifle is combined with a slower barrel time, the easier it is to regulate!

H&H a few years ago was contracted to build a double rifle for an American customer chambered for the, then new, 225 win mag cartridge! They said that was the hardest rifle to get regulated they had ever made. The recoil was there but the movement during barrel time was to tiny, combined with a very fast barrel time, that it was almost imperceptible. It was so hard to measure that they burned a lot of ammo and time in the process!
The 225 Wim Mag is a rimmed center fire .22 cartridge built on 30-30 case and does develop some recoil but is very quick when compared to larger rounds hence the vary fast barrel time, making the adjustments very tiny. On the other hand the same rifle chambered for .22 LR would develop almost no recoil at all. Because the weight of the rifle in conjunction with the slower barrel time. the rifle would be easier to regulate. Much the same way a heavy rifle shooting a comparatively slow barrel time that ratio makes the regulation easier.

The lighter the rifle combined with a very fast barrel time accentuates the effect of how the rifle is held and/or rested. Less effect is exhibited on a heavy rifle with a slower barrel time.

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Mac,
What you stated agrees exactly with my past experiences with regulating different calibers of guns, including 12 and 20 gauge slug guns. The big ones were easy to get regulated but some of the others have been a real chore. The hardest one to date has been a Baikal 30-06 over/under.
One of the .405's was also very picky about what I loaded in it. Bob

BLS,
I am really looking forward to seeing your regulating video. I think many here will find it to be very interesting and informative. Bob

quote:

Originally posted by birdhunter50:
Many of them even remove the forend while regulating the gun and that is the part I do not understand. Why would they do it that way? Surely the forend being on the gun should not affect the overall regulation of the gun, or does it? Bob

BOB, I think the removal of the fore-end wood could very well influence the regulation. I have an idea, however, that what you saw was for the initial patterning. Many regulators will solder the front wedge in by educated guess, fire two or three rounds from each barrel to get a starting indication to see which way adjustments need moving! Of course stranger things have happened where regulation is concerned, some even regulate with a Drimmel tool!

Mac,
That's true, but I don't think it is the recommended method. Several of the regulators i watched were doing the final regulation, the one from Sabatti was supposedly shooting the target that would be sent with the gun. He and several other, including one from Holland & Holland were shooting regulating targets with the forend removed? If the forend is fitted tightly and correctly, I can't figure out what the benefit would be unless they are just trying to protect the forend wood from damage.
Bob

quote:

Originally posted by birdhunter50:
Mac,
That's true, but I don't think it is the recommended method. Several of the regulators i watched were doing the final regulation, the one from Sabatti was supposedly shooting the target that would be sent with the gun. He and several other, including one from Holland & Holland were shooting regulating targets with the forend removed? If the forend is fitted tightly and correctly, I can't figure out what the benefit would be unless they are just trying to protect the forend wood from damage.
Bob

It certainly could be to reduce wear on the hook-up and/or protect the wood, but My guess is it was most likely to simply save time in the process. I don't think regulating without the whole rifle is the best idea, but who am I to second guess Holland&Holland!

P.S.:
On second thought, the forend iron at least would be needed to be attached to facilatate re-cocking of the rifle on opening for the next rounds. SO! like you I can't think of a advantage to regulating without the forend attacthed!

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Butch uses one of those complicated tie on rests, I think the big one from Cabellas and has the plunger trigger, best I recall..His bench is out in the desert as stated..As many as he has to shoot, I would definatly opt for his type of bench rest..

I have a stand up bench rest that I use. its a two by four braced to a telephone pole at my house, heavily wrapped in toe-sack material, I use my hand under the forend..I only use this rest for double rifles, on a 50 or 75 yard target..It works well and is compatible with off hand shooting keeping the correct zero off hand as from the rest, its the same rest, more or less, as the English use..It takes up a lot of recoil and makes shooting easier on the body..Easy to build for sure, but only if you can hammer a nail.

I am fairly new to this site as Ya know but quite an old shooter, lads you have me a bit confused. Seems now, the members here that belong to the forum's "League of Extraordinary Gentlemen" give conflicting opinions of using a "sled" or "fixture" type rest with a double. I know there are many variables to consider in the actual machine and in the rifle being shot, I also have a fair understanding of the physics involved and the rather complicated dynamics of a recoiling double. After extensive reading in the archives and now with the new insight presented above, the overall opinions on the practice are seemingly inconsistent at the least. As a new guy I was satisfied with the consensus of "Butch shoots in the desert" Imagining that there might just be some deeply guarded trade secrets involved, but now seems like the cat may be at least peering out of the bag. hahahah I am pleased to continue watch and learn. Just in passing, all my years on the bench with a bolt gun have been against a loosely filled leather bag of reclaimed #7&1/2s and 8s.

quote:

Originally posted by scutulatus:
I am fairly new to this site as Ya know but quite an old shooter, lads you have me a bit confused. Seems now, the members here that belong to the forum's "League of Extraordinary Gentlemen" give conflicting opinions of using a "sled" or "fixture" type rest with a double. I know there are many variables to consider in the actual machine and in the rifle being shot, I also have a fair understanding of the physics involved and the rather complicated dynamics of a recoiling double. After extensive reading in the archives and now with the new insight presented above, the overall opinions on the practice are seemingly inconsistent at the least. As a new guy I was satisfied with the consensus of "Butch shoots in the desert" Imagining that there might just be some deeply guarded trade secrets involved, but now seems like the cat may be at least peering out of the bag. hahahah I am pleased to continue watch and learn. Just in passing, all my years on the bench with a bolt gun have been against a loosely filled leather bag of reclaimed #7&1/2s and 8s.

Do not know if I am "extraordinary" or just old
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I have seen double rifles stocks broken at the wrist from " fully weighted lead sleds" and other such similar appliances.

I presume that a "less weighted" lead sled perhaps might not have fractured the wrist--but that is merely a presumption, one with expensive consequences if incorrect .

I too use a "custom" leather pad than contains lead shot for bench work with any "big bore".

Doubles I tend to only fire from the standing bench. It is how I was instructed by " experts" many now long dead , who whether absolutely correct or not --were "there" at some of the British regulation work of the pre and post war era. All of which was done while held by Man.

That is not to say , some improved recoil absorbing hydraulic, air, elastic or other moving recoil absorbing apparatus could not be used to "properly" regulate a modern DR; just that I am unaware of such a device.

So, for those of us developing loads for our precious rifles, who do not possess this purported device-- shoot from the hands, preferably from a standing bench; that is my council-- and yes with the heavy pad over the shoulder.

hey butch,

shoot me the video via text (or email from your phone for better quality) and I can upload and post it for you if you'd like.

bobby n.

I did the shooting myself in Boron when my .450 N. E. was regulated... from the first two shots out of the barrels until my satisfaction. My express sight picture is different than most (including Butch's) as to elevation so I shot and Butch adjusted.

After I fired the first right and left from Butch's rest, I then shot two offhand shots at the same target to make sure my offhand technique was mirrored using the rest. It was.

Three trips to the shop for adjustments after using the bench only for a quick two shots and when the penultimate two were both almost touching a 1"dot at 50 yards I again shot an offhand left and right. I called those shots as a wee bit low and left for the right barrel and spot on for the left. And that's where the bullets went.

Worked for me perfectly though a couple of elephants might say too damn well.

Aside from the obvious knock on Sabatti's earlier use of a Dremel, I'll toss in my 2 cents.I believe that if a rifle is loosely set in some type of 'sled', when the gun recoils against the rear of the sled, the effect might be similar to the weight of the shooters shoulder in effect trying to stop the rearward movt. of the gun. It also allows the piece to lift from the forward support just as holding the forearm would if you hold it with your hand. I find in my case when I bench my guns, I very lightly touch the pad with the back of my hand and relax my upper body so the gun recoils naturally. This makes it look like the gun really kicks and impresses onlookers/girlfriends/Shootaway. Shooting this way, I also find the POI the same when I shoot off-hand, sitting or from one knee.

ya gota shoot it basic

quote:

Originally posted by bobby7321:
hey butch,

shoot me the video via text (or email from your phone for better quality) and I can upload and post it for you if you'd like.

bobby n.

Bobby, it is quite evident from the way the Searcy doubles shoot to a very regulated grouping, what ever method Butch uses works! I have never seen a double rifle brand that regulates across the board better than a Searcy.

That may be the reason he is reluctant to display trade secrets, by detailed exhibition of his method. He may have discovered what everyone else has been trying to find for 100 years!

I know he uses some sort of unconventional rest because he told me that many years ago at the Dallas safari show. His words were "I have a my own set-up that removes the human factor for regulation!"

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I have seen a lead sled ruin two stocks on double rifles, unfortunately one was mine, I suggest you not put a full load of lead on one, and your better off not using the lead sled with a heavy recoiling rifle. I have also known them to split out some bolt action big bores.

I have one, but I don't put much lead, if any , on mine and I strap it down with at least an inch of space between the forend and the strap, and don't use it with anything larger than a 300 H&H or .338 win. My stand up rustic bench rest is for the big bore bolt guns and definatly the doubles.