I don't know anything about this, however, a fellow from Germany was getting off the plane coming into camp in Zimbabwe as we were leaving. Forgive me, I forget names, very nice chap, very proud to be carrying this rifle. As stated, I know crap about it, but he says it's an H&H Royal, 450 Nitro, made in 1889 as I recall. I imagine it's a rather expensive toy. He was shooting low power black powder also as I recall, hunting buffalo! ANyway, here it is. Also forgive the photos, not as good as I would like, but my camera was packed, and was using another that I am not so familiar with.












Just thought you guys would like to see.

Michael

Thank you for posting the photos. That is an absolutely gorgeous hunters rifle.

Beautiful rifle. Odd I've never seen that safety slide on the side of the locks before. Would someone inlight us on that? I sure wouldn't hand that gun over to a tracker to carry!

quote:

Originally posted by srose:
Beautiful rifle. Odd I've never seen that safety slide on the side of the locks before. Would someone inlight us on that?

Might have been a Scott gun. I'm not sure when H&H started making their own guns but Scott made a hell of a lot (or even most / all) before a certain date.


Any ideas if that is Nitro or Nitro for Black gun ?

.

Nigel

If you mean black powder, I think so? As I recall he had low power loads, 1500-1600 fps or so? I think black powder loads.

I am pretty ignorant on some matters, this is one, so please forgive, going on memory!

Michael

Michael

I got the fact that you said he was using BP loads. No problems with that.


I was referring the gun itself, whether it was a Nitro for Black gun or a BP gun.

I am just trying to find my notes as a mate was using a similar gun this year with me in Aus.

Flattened a few Buffalo.

.

Nigel

Well you are out of my area of expertise, I don't know!
M

Michael

Not saying it is not a 450 Nitro, but everything has to "align" as I say.

The 450 Nitro came out about 1898. You mentioned the gun was made 1889 (or so you said from memory).

Now I am not an expert of the gradual change from hammer guns to Top lever Hammerless and some early Top lever Hammerless were made before 1900 but 1889 is very early.

Then the fact he is shooting BP loads.

And the gun does look "light" for a full Nitro gun - quite a few of the early FULL Nitro guns were quite heavy until they realised they didn't have to be that big. Just my HO.

.

quote:

Originally posted by 500N:
Michael

Not saying it is not a 450 Nitro, but everything has to "align" as I say.

The 450 Nitro came out about 1898. You mentioned the gun was made 1889 (or so you said from memory).

Now I am not an expert of the gradual change from hammer guns to Top lever Hammerless and some early Top lever Hammerless were made before 1900 but 1889 is very early.

Then the fact he is shooting BP loads.

And the gun does look "light" for a full Nitro gun - quite a few of the early FULL Nitro guns were quite heavy until they realised they didn't have to be that big. Just my HO.

.

500N you are quite correct, the rifle is not a nitro rifle if made in 1889, and I doubt it is Nitro for Black either, but full Black powder EXPRESS!

The rifle is a very early hammerless double rifle, and is a back action side lock and the side safeties are internal stalking safeties! They are exactly like the sliding stalking safeties on a hammer rifle only inside the action plates. These are in addition to the real safety on the top tang which safes both barrels while the stalking safeties on the sides are to avoid doubling much like intercepting sears



This is a fine looking rifle but I suspect it has been completely re-finished!The barrel butts seem to be smaller diameter than the fences indicating fileing down to get rid of pitting, making the chamber walls even thinner than when new! IMO this rifle is not up to Cape buffalo hunting, and the rifle was designed for roe deer, and red stag hunting in England. I have a Westley Richards 500/450#1 Express hammerless, top lever selective ejector double rifle made in 1892 that is full black powder and I think 1889 is early for an NFB rifle. I hope that guy has a good back-up and is not using Nitro loads in that rifle. If he is using Nitro loaded 450NE in that rifle the rifle may get him before the buffalo has a chance at him!

Mac

Yes, I agree.

It's a very nice gun indeed.


OK then, on the "if it's been refinsihed"

The close photo looks like the action hasn't been refinished but the others, because of the light reflection look like it has been - sharp engraving.

Barrels re struck and re blued ?

Do you think it has been restocked ?
Doesn't seem to be any marks on it at all.


Anyway, I'd own it !!! LOL

.

quote:

Originally posted by 500N:
Mac

Yes, I agree.

It's a very nice gun indeed.


OK then, on the "if it's been refinsihed"

The close photo looks like the action hasn't been refinished but the others, because of the light reflection look like it has been - sharp engraving.

Barrels re struck and re blued ?

Do you think it has been restocked ?
Doesn't seem to be any marks on it at all.


Anyway, I'd own it !!! LOL

.

You posted while I wa editing my post above! The engraving has, IMO, been very well done recut, and as I said in my edit above if you look closely at the picture the barrels butts seem smaller that the fences indicating fileing down to remove pitting. This makes the chamber walls even thinner than when new!

quote:

Originally posted by 500N:
Michael

Not saying it is not a 450 Nitro, but everything has to "align" as I say.

The 450 Nitro came out about 1898. You mentioned the gun was made 1889 (or so you said from memory).

Now I am not an expert of the gradual change from hammer guns to Top lever Hammerless and some early Top lever Hammerless were made before 1900 but 1889 is very early.

Then the fact he is shooting BP loads.

And the gun does look "light" for a full Nitro gun - quite a few of the early FULL Nitro guns were quite heavy until they realised they didn't have to be that big. Just my HO.

.

Well boys, I can't tell you anything except what the guy told me. Now there is the possibility, him being German, my hearing not so great, that I might have heard something incorrect, no doubt about it. But I remember he said 450 Nitro, Black Powder, and 1889. Or that is what I thought I heard anyway. I never touched it, or held it. Just took photos. I have to say that it was in awfully GOOD shape to have been made in 1889. Not a mark on it anywhere that I could see, nor worn blue, nothing, looked like it rolled off the show floor to me and had never been out. Refinished? Would not be surprised at all.

But, I can't really tell you much more.

Michael

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:

Well boys, I can't tell you anything except what the guy told me. Now there is the possibility, him being German, my hearing not so great, that I might have heard something incorrect, no doubt about it. But I remember he said 450 Nitro, Black Powder, and 1889. Or that is what I thought I heard anyway. I never touched it, or held it. Just took photos. I have to say that it was in awfully GOOD shape to have been made in 1889. Not a mark on it anywhere that I could see, nor worn blue, nothing, looked like it rolled off the show floor to me and had never been out. Refinished? Would not be surprised at all.

But, I can't really tell you much more.

Michael

Thanks Michael, you are correct the rifle is beautiful, and is definantly an early rifle! I just hope the guy wasn't sold the rifle as a full Nitro rifle. If he is useing nitro for black cartridges he may well be OK even if the rifle is proofed for BLACK POWDER, but I believe he is pushing the rifle a little even with the NFB rounds! Let's hope not! It would be interesting to see the proof marks on that rifle!

Very fine gun !
Is this what my old COTW refers to as .500/.450 Magnum BPE , 3 1/4" ? Later made in nitro loadings.

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:

You posted while I wa editing my post above! The engraving has, IMO, been very well done recut, and as I said in my edit above if you look closely at the picture the barrels butts seem smaller that the fences indicating fileing down to remove pitting. This makes the chamber walls even thinner than when new!

OK, This is where you and I will disagree (re the barrels struck below the fences).

Some (English) guns were built like that. Don't know why but I have seen a few.



METE
"Is this what my old COTW refers to as .500/.450 Magnum BPE , 3 1/4" ? Later made in nitro loadings."

I don't think so based on what was said, I think it is the 450 BPE that was later made into the
450 Nitro.

.

What a lovely old girl! A prize indeed. Good that she is hunting.

quote:

OK, This is where you and I will disagree (re the barrels struck below the fences).

Some (English) guns were built like that. Don't know why but I have seen a few.

I agree.
I have seen other Hollands of this vintage with the vestigal knobs on the tops of the fences with barrels much smaller than the action. I also agree that it looks goofy.
One Holland I have seen had the edges rounded out to meet the breeches of the barrels. Not very sleek looking...

Other than that, I say too that it is most likely a BPE rifle based on era and size. Of course it could have been re-proved for nitro but I wouldn't have risked it. The .450 doubles are great standard duty rifles but not dangerous game rifles by any standard. Not saying you can't kill a buff with one, just saying not the best choice if facing a charge. Suspect no hunter faces DG these days without a backup PH though.

quote:

vestigal knobs

I think it was a throw back to the days of hammers !!!

I had a gun with them on but they looked OK on that. From memory it was also a Scott type.


As someone else said, I'd like to know the proof marks but also the serial numbers / records on it to see if it was a Scott gun.

Any clues anyone ?

Also, when did the first Holland sidelock (the AB action) come out ?

.

What a nice rifle. Lucky fellow!

quote:

Originally posted by mete:
Very fine gun !
Is this what my old COTW refers to as .500/.450 Magnum BPE , 3 1/4" ? Later made in nitro loadings.

No, the 450 3 1/4" BPE is very different from the 500/450 3 1/4" BPE.

quote:

Originally posted by 500N:
OK, This is where you and I will disagree (re the barrels struck below the fences).

Some (English) guns were built like that. Don't know why but I have seen a few.



METE
"Is this what my old COTW refers to as .500/.450 Magnum BPE , 3 1/4" ? Later made in nitro loadings."

I don't think so based on what was said, I think it is the 450 BPE that was later made into the
450 Nitro.

.

You are no doubt correct on the fences! And you are copmpletely correct on the 500/450 3 1/4 inch being a different cartridge from the 450BPE 3 1/4 inch both in BLK, NFB, and Nitro!

There is another 500/450#1 BP Express 2 3/4 inch which was never offewred in BPE, or Nitro, only black powder. That is the Westley Richards I have!

In any case the rifle pictured in this thread has all the signs of a BLP, or NFB rifle, haveing the 28 inch barrels is a hold over from the black podwer days where long barrels were needed. All the Nitro proofed doubles I have seen with 28 inch barrels are very early rifles, later they were mostly made with 26 in barrels, and now most are made with 24 in barrels! All the black powder doubles I've ever owned have had 28 in barrels, except one which had 30 barrels. My 500/450#1 bp EXPRESS Westley has 28 in barrels. To my knowledge the 500/450#1 Express was never offered in either NFB, or Nitro versions, only full black powder!


I still would have loved to have seen the proof marks on that H&H rifle! If, in fact, the rifle was BP proofed, and the guy is loading NFB he may be safe, but if he is loading full Nitro loads in either a BP, or NFB rifle he is asking for trouble!

The back-action hammerless side-locks are my favorite of all actions, ever. They are so elegant, classy, beautiful. The Fahrquarson comes in a close second.

Regardless of the calibre of this rifle, the owner is fortunate to have shot/and owned a gun of such provenance, and beauty.

These guns are why we fall in love with doubles. If only we all could afford an H&H of that era.

Thanks for the pictures and to reflect upon the best of fine gunmaking.

Mike

Lovely rifle, but I wonder what possessed the owner to take a deer rifle after buffalo?