quote:

Originally posted by LegioX:
Hello Gents.
I'm new to the forum and thought I'd introduce myself. My shooting background includes hunting game in Alaska, highpower competition and as of 5 yrs ago, long range precision rifle. Now that this awesome place has popped up on my radar apparently a DR is in my future. After lurking and searching for a couple months a few questions are in order.

Can one reload the CEB #13's and closely match the results of the builders regulation, providing the bullets are the same weight?
Usually, if you like to experiment you most likely can match or do better than the factory regulation. Some builders will regulate the rifle with a scope on at 100 yards but they charge extra for doing this.


If one orders a DR from the builder, can you request how tight the regulation grouping is and where the shots impact as far as POA/POI?
You can always ask to have it sighted in for a certain range, high, low, etc. If you get lucky they listen to you. But I doubt any builder will grant a request as to regulation size unless you want the rifle to group larger than normal



Its apparent to me that some DR's print nicely and some are lucky to be in the next ballpark, namely the Sabatti's as seen on the Cabela's site. NEVER EVER go by a test target. They mean absolutely nothing.


I heard or read somewhere that one of the popular builders uses laser bore sighters to regulate their rifles, is there any truth to this and if so, which builder is it?

A big thanks to the folks who started and run this site, its a fantastic source of information and is greatly appreciated.
Thanks for your time and input.
LX

quote:

Originally posted by Snowwolfe:

quote:

Originally posted by LegioX:
Hello Gents.
I'm new to the forum and thought I'd introduce myself. My shooting background includes hunting game in Alaska, highpower competition and as of 5 yrs ago, long range precision rifle. Now that this awesome place has popped up on my radar apparently a DR is in my future. After lurking and searching for a couple months a few questions are in order.

Can one reload the CEB #13's and closely match the results of the builders regulation, providing the bullets are the same weight?
Usually, if you like to experiment you most likely can match or do better than the factory regulation. Some builders will regulate the rifle with a scope on at 100 yards but they charge extra for doing this.


If one orders a DR from the builder, can you request how tight the regulation grouping is and where the shots impact as far as POA/POI?
You can always ask to have it sighted in for a certain range, high, low, etc. If you get lucky they listen to you. But I doubt any builder will grant a request as to regulation size unless you want the rifle to group larger than normal



Its apparent to me that some DR's print nicely and some are lucky to be in the next ballpark, namely the Sabatti's as seen on the Cabela's site. NEVER EVER go by a test target. They mean absolutely nothing.


I heard or read somewhere that one of the popular builders uses laser bore sighters to regulate their rifles, is there any truth to this and if so, which builder is it?

A big thanks to the folks who started and run this site, its a fantastic source of information and is greatly appreciated.
Thanks for your time and input.
LX

If you want to see examples of a Heym, Searcy, or Chapuis and live close to Eagle River shoot me a PM and you can make arrangements to take a look at mine. Quite a few Alaskans on here who own doubles and bet they make the same offer. If it ever warms up maybe we can have a double Rifle shoot at Birchwood

quote:

Originally posted by Snowwolfe:
. Quite a few Alaskans on here who own doubles and bet they make the same offer.

quote:

Originally posted by Mike Brooks:

quote:

Originally posted by Snowwolfe:
. Quite a few Alaskans on here who own doubles and bet they make the same offer.

Ditto from Anchortown. Searcy, ChapuisJP Sauer
Some Austrian and English and Scotch older ones

quote:

Originally posted by LegioX:
Hello Gents.
I'm new to the forum and thought I'd introduce myself. My shooting background includes hunting game in Alaska, highpower competition and as of 5 yrs ago, long range precision rifle. Now that this awesome place has popped up on my radar apparently a DR is in my future. After lurking and searching for a couple months a few questions are in order.

Can one reload the CEB #13's and closely match the results of the builders regulation, providing the bullets are the same weight?

If one orders a DR from the builder, can you request how tight the regulation grouping is and where the shots impact as far as POA/POI?

Its apparent to me that some DR's print nicely and some are lucky to be in the next ballpark, namely the Sabatti's as seen on the Cabela's site.

I heard or read somewhere that one of the popular builders uses laser bore sighters to regulate their rifles, is there any truth to this and if so, which builder is it?

A big thanks to the folks who started and run this site, its a fantastic source of information and is greatly appreciated.
Thanks for your time and input.
LX

....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1
DRSS Charter member
"If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982

Hands of Old Elmer Keith

quote:

Originally posted by cal pappas:
LegioX:
Welcome.
At times in the warm weather like minded gents come to my home in Willow for a doubles shoot. However this summer we may go to Birchwood and reserve the range as it is closer to where most folks live. Come on up and join us. Also, should you drive to the city and Eagle River to see some new and European doubles, keep driving to north of Willow to see a few vintage English doubles.
Also, there is some info on doubles on my website: <calpappas.com>
Cheers,
Cal

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:

quote:

Originally posted by LegioX:
Hello Gents.
I'm new to the forum and thought I'd introduce myself. My shooting background includes hunting game in Alaska, highpower competition and as of 5 yrs ago, long range precision rifle. Now that this awesome place has popped up on my radar apparently a DR is in my future. After lurking and searching for a couple months a few questions are in order.

Can one reload the CEB #13's and closely match the results of the builders regulation, providing the bullets are the same weight?

If one orders a DR from the builder, can you request how tight the regulation grouping is and where the shots impact as far as POA/POI?

Its apparent to me that some DR's print nicely and some are lucky to be in the next ballpark, namely the Sabatti's as seen on the Cabela's site.

I heard or read somewhere that one of the popular builders uses laser bore sighters to regulate their rifles, is there any truth to this and if so, which builder is it?

A big thanks to the folks who started and run this site, its a fantastic source of information and is greatly appreciated.
Thanks for your time and input.
LX

LegioX, Here is an old post I made way back that may explain some of the myths you have read in magazines and on the internet. Many who have doubles that they think are properly regulated that shoot little 1 inch groups at 50 yds are sadly mistaken. If each barrels center of bore is one inch apart then it is imposible for the rifle to be properly regulated and shoot a 1 inch composite group. Because the rifle is crossing at that range, and will shoot more corssed as the range increases down range. The double rifle is actually two rifle sitting side be side, and when reguleted properly they shoot side by side.

FIRST OFF a double rifle should never touch anything but your hands, shoulder and face while being fired. You can rest the front of the rifle in your hand with the back of your hand on a sand bag but not the rifle. Also to change point of impact it is better to change the load rather than the bullet weight. Most double rifles are regulated to use a standard weight bullet at a particular speed, and that is the proper way to proceed.

Many new to double rifles have expressed the idea of using a laser and a jig to simply adjust the barrels to be perfectly parallel, but that simply does not work! The barrels have to be converging, and pointing low so they will shoot side by side under recoil flip. The right barrel moves UP and To the RIGHT while the bullet is traveling down the bore, and the left barrel moves UP and to the LEFT while the bullet is traveling down to bore. When the regulation is correct both the barrel’s center will be on it’s own side of the composite group of both barrels. Lasers are used by regulators just to place the barrels line of sight through the bore crossing and pointing low as a STARTING POINT only. After that the regulation process can begin by shooting and adjusting by trial and error!


What you are looking for is not bullet holes but the center of each barrels individual four shot group. The center of each barrel’s individual four shot group should be half the distance between the centers of the bores of both barrels. With the aiming point on the target half way between those two group centers, with the centers of each barrel’s individual group being on its own side of the aiming point. In other words the CENTERS of the two groups should never cross. Some shots will comingle in between the centers but the center should remain on its own side of the aiming point.

The comingling between the barrels is what forms the composite group, but the centers never cross. If the barrels centers are each on their own side of the aiming point but too wide, they will usually be high as well, then the load is too slow. Conversely if the centers cross they will usually be low as well, and the load is too fast.

The load needs to be either slowed or speeded up till the centers of a four shot group from each barrel is on its own side of the aiming point, with the aiming point half way between the two groups centers you have perfect regulation.

To properly get these two barrel groups, each shot from each barrel should be fired from cool barrels. IOW, you fire one shot from the right barrel, and within 8 seconds fire one shot from the left barrel. Let the barrels cool, then repeat the RT/LFT the same way, and again let the barrels cool, and so on till you have two four shot groups one from each barrel. The reason for the cooling between each two shots is because a double rifle is a hunting rifle and designed to fire the first two shots from a cool barrel set, to find a proper regulating group of four shot each two have to be fired from cool barrels. This is a step that is often not followed and the result is proper regulation is usually not found. The reason is after the first shot from each barrel the barrels heat progressively hotter with each two fired changing the impact point on the target. This fine when shooting animals but not for finding a regulating load. Once the load is found this process is not needed again.

Now find the center of each barrel’s individual four shot group in relation to the aiming point. This is easiest and best done on two separate identical targets placed side by side on the target backboard, with the aiming point in the exact center of each target.
I find two pieces of printer paper with a line drawn vertically and horizontally through the center of the paper with a two inch pyramid shaped aiming point with it’s top point at the apex of those two lines works best. Hold on the top of the pyramid.

This way the bullet holes are not intermingling, and it is easy to find the center of the group. Once the centers of the group on each target is found you can place on target on top of the other, and with a red marks-a-lot draw through the hole in the top target onto the target below. Now you have a clear idea of what each barrel is doing so you can make adjustments in your load accordingly.

This sounds like a lot of trouble, but it only has to be done once and when you find the proper load for your rifle, you are done. I go through this process with each new double rifle I buy, and once I find the load, I load 100 rounds with this load, and put it away for hunting, and in most cases this will be more than you will need for hunting for the next few years. For practice get about three 20 round boxes of brass and re-load the 60 rounds of brass till it wears out, but use the 100 rounds in new brass strictly for hunting.

The above is the way the regulator physically regulates your rifle at the factory and is one of the big costs of building a double rifle. Finding a proper load to match that regulation is the same process, and like the physical regulator, once you have done it you have the proper load for that rifle.

I recommend you cut and paste this to a word file and store it in your computer, or print it out and save it for further use next time, or to pass on to others who may need the information!

Hope any of this makes sense to you!

.......................................................................................................................................................................

quote:

Originally posted by dpcd:
What he said. LegioX, I am getting ready to regulate this 9.3 I am building, so come on down and you can see how frustrating it can be and in this case, we will be moving and soldering the barrels to get the bullets to fall in the right place, with a predetermined load. Held in the hands from a standing rest position. as stated above. Many DR shooters have locked their rifles into sandbags at the bench and then wondered why they wouldn't shoot. and why they kicked so much.