Okay gurus another questions for those in the know,, was running thru Cabelas listing and drooling over the doubles when I happened apon the 450-400 3" with hammers and the stalking safety,

How does it work?

What are you referring to as a stalking safety? Stalking safeties on hammer guns are used on the non-rebounding type. The only .400 I see there is a Rodda with rebounding hammers. A full nitro hammergun with non-rebounding hammers would be an odd duck indeed, as that type was long gone by the time the nitro expresses appeared.
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"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

quote:

Stalking Safety

Stalking Safety - A safety catch fitted to a hammer gun where a sliding bar moves into a slot in the inner wall of the hammer base, locking it in place in the cocked position. The safety can then be released silently by sliding the tab, avoiding the game-startling sound of the hammer cocking.

http://www.hallowellco.com/abbrevia.htm

click on the letter S, and scroll down to "stalking safety" to see a picture of them

The hammer rifle without stalking safeties can be silently cocked as well, by simply holding the trigger back till the hammer is all the way back, and while holding the hammer back releasing the trigger! No sound at all. These rifles were the choice of many old time ele hunters, because of this feature, and the fact that most did not have ejectors, or the self cocking clicks when opening the rifle, to re-load, or the change the cartridges in the chambers, when in close proximity to elephants!

re stalking safetys

most of the ones i've seen were on alex henry double rifles but they worked differently. they kept the hammer in the half cock position. the other style listed would be more practical for getting the rifle into action quickly.'

re hammers -and their silence -
i once owned an osborne 600 top lever hammer double rifle. plain finish it was a working rifle. and whoever ordered it knew what he wanted regarding hammers as it was well into the hammerless era.

Stalking safeties weren't just for hammer guns though were they? I ask because of this picture If these aren't stalking safeties what are they?

Bill

Well, yeah, they were sometimes used on early hammerless sidelocks where "frogeyes" made them possible, such as the Woodward "Automatic". Initial resistance to hammerless double guns was enormous because you couldn't see the hammers to see if they were cocked. Lots of weird things were done in that transitional period.

Yes, the hammer safeties on A. Henry rifles locked the hammers in the half-cock position.
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"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

I was just wondering. This is the only one I have seen, but then I haven't seen nearly the number of guns as most of you guys have seen.

I'm guessing that this wasn't the norm on the Woodwards either. I beleive that Curl's 450-400 is an earlier rifle than the one pictured and his doesn't have the stalking safeties.

I don't know something about these Woodwards that makes me want to rob a bank to afford one .

Bill

quote:

Initial resistance to hammerless double guns was enormous

Some of us still keep up the fight All my doubles have the hammers out where you can see'em!

Cheers, Bob

quote:

Originally posted by banzaibird:
I was just wondering. This is the only one I have seen, but then I haven't seen nearly the number of guns as most of you guys have seen.

I'm guessing that this wasn't the norm on the Woodwards either. I beleive that Curl's 450-400 is an earlier rifle than the one pictured and his doesn't have the stalking safeties.

I don't know something about these Woodwards that makes me want to rob a bank to afford one .

Bill

Actually, these things wouldn't ba a bad feature on modern hammerless double rifles. The tang safeties only block the triggers, in most cases, and the sliding "STALKING SAFETIES" are a physical steel block that is inserted into the stud that is dirrectly connected to the tumbler inside. When a hammerless is carried, loaded, it depends only on the trigger block to make it safe. The Hammer double rifle, however, not cocked till you are ready to shoot. Addtionally, one can see if another shooter's rifle is cocked from a distance, and the shooter can tell if it is cocked in total darkness, by feel, and it can be cocked silently as well. Another thing to offer by the hammer rifle is that there are no "CLIKS" of any kind when the rifle is opened or closed, because there are no cocking levers for auto cocking, and most hammer guns are extractor only, so ejectors are not cocked either!

I love a sleek hammerless double rifle, and I like the looks of a box lock with side plates, but true side lock hammer rifles have many advantages, that most never think about. A good double rifle that is a hammer rifle, and locked up with a Jones under lever is one of the quietest double rifles in existance! NO clicks, snicks of pops till the trigger is pulled!

As long as we are talking safeties, what is a bolted safety? I see them mentioned in ads but have never actually seen one. Guessing a mechanism to lock safety out?
Thanks.
C.G.B.

Pics of bolted safety.

Bill

Bill:

There weren't that many "Automatics" made to begin with, so it's kinda hard to tell. Maybe the stalking safeties were offered as an option for the nervous? I certainly have seen them without them.

CGB:

The above is the most common version, but there were variations. Rigby's had a stud on top the of safety slide that had to be depressed in order to push the safety forward.
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"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

400,

I don't know if they were an option a special request and thus one a kind or even if they were added later. As I said this is the only one I've seen. I tracked down pics of 5 Woodward automatics (rifles, quite a few more shotguns out there)on the net. This is the only one with them that I've found so far.

CGB,

I beleive this is a pic of the push button on the Rigby that 400 was talking about.

Bill

ohh, I should note that it is best seen in the second pic in the sequence. Also thsi is from the Champlin site.

Bill

quote:

Originally posted by banzaibird:
400,

I don't know if they were an option a special request and thus one a kind or even if they were added later. As I said this is the only one I've seen. I tracked down pics of 5 Woodward automatics (rifles, quite a few more shotguns out there)on the net. This is the only one with them that I've found so far.

CGB,

I beleive this is a pic of the push button on the Rigby that 400 was talking about
Bill

Bill the button on the Jef was a custom touch, and not unique to Jeffery, as similar types are on many double rifles, and shotguns. However,these features are most times on up grade examples of these rifles. There is no doubt the stalking, and barred safeties are customer requested touches, and add considerable to the cost of the rifle, for the origenal owner, and are worth a premium in a used rifle, as well.

As to what purpose they serve, like any custom feature on a custom made rifle, they serve the purpose the customer wants them to serve. However, the reason the button, and the barred safeties were made is to avoid the safety being accidently slipped to fire possition, by the owner, or a gun bearer.

The stalking safeties for Hammer rifles, was for the owner only. They were designed so the hammers could be cocked in advance of close procsimity to the target being gained, and the actual shooting, mostly when hunting Elephant,who are so sencitive to any matalic click! So that no noise would be made when close to the target, giveing away the shooter's possition, when he readied the rifle to fire. The same thing could be effected by other means, if these stalking safeties are not available, but these methods are not as effecient as the stalking safeties on a hammer rifle. The hammer safeties shown on the hammerless rifle,are extremely rare,in the post,of Bazaibird, were simply an early safety system, that not only kept the rifle from fireing accidently,but avoided doubleing, when one of the barrels was fired on early hammerless rifles without rebounding tumblers. This was needed then because a single safety would let the other barrel sometimes fire from the recoil of the first shot! The two look like the same thing, but serve two distinctly different purposes!

As Mark (400 Nitro express says ) there were many things tried during the transition period from black powder, and from exposed hammers to hammerless configuration, but the ones mentioned today are the ones that made some sense, and worked the way they were dsigned to work!