It is common to read on these threads that the 450 / 400 is a very popular cartridge. There is is also quite a bit of descrepency and conflict on discussion with regard to performance characteristics this cartridge has to offer.

1) It is stated about every where that a velocity of 2150 FPS to 2200 FPS is noticeable on game compared to 2000-2050. This is where the 458 WIN got a bad rap.
2) It is said the 450 / 400 has great SD with the 400 gr. bullet (.330). It is not as good as 500 gr 458 calber SD (.341)

Relative to comments on this forum, the 450 / 400 would suffer the same stigma as the old 458 win mag.

This all comes down to my final question. Can you safely reload a 450 / 400 (3") to 2150 - 2200 fps and have it regulate in a double rife?
To be optimum, it would appear that it could use another 100-150 FPS velocity.
This might also flatten out the trajectory a little for longer shots with a scope.
I know lot of folks are going to reply just use a 416 / 500 but that is not the question.
Anyone have any loads out there they might want to share?

EZ

In principle you could have a 450/400 regulated to any handload, if it stays below the max. allowable pressure. However, the rifle company could refuse to regulate your DR to cartridges which are handloaded and not from an official cartridge manufacturer. This happened to me here in Germany, the DR company claiming they were not covered by their insurance if the used handloads.

Hans

I would say you get more of a noticeable effect on game when you get above 2300 - 2400 fps.

I haven't seen game not die just because the bullet was going at 2050 fps.

2050, 2150 fps, 100 fps is not going to make that much difference.

As much as anyone, I understand the desire to "improve" things, but the 400 has been working just fine for over 100-years.

Hans is right - you won't find a manufacturer (in a CIP country) that's going to regulate the rifle with your loads.

That's the whole idea behind CIP regulation - to assure the customer that both the rifle and ammo are safe.

I shot two buffalo last year with a new 450/400. This one ran @ 30-yards.



This one ran @ 20.


Neither had anything to say about the need to increase the velocity.

quote:

Originally posted by eezridr:

This all comes down to my final question. Can you safely reload a 450 / 400 (3") to 2150 - 2200 fps and have it regulate in a double rife?
To be optimum, it would appear that it could use another 100-150 FPS velocity.
This might also flatten out the trajectory a little for longer shots with a scope.
EZ

One of my 450/400's shoots at 2150 fps anyway.

Flatten trajectory - why ? What ranges were you thinking of,
I'd shoot them out to 150 yards no problems, 200 yards on a
follow up shot, again, not a problem as long as I could do
my job.


Also, didn't the 458 WM suffer from a fair bit more than just
fps ? Like compressed loads that didn't go off properly and
a few other things as opposed to just 2000 fps.

Gentlemen,

I realize there are numerous vintage 450 / 400's out there that require ammo loaded in a mild manner in order to ensure the hunters safety.
Chris, I suspect a modern Heym is easily capable of handling a "little" extra pressure. Quite a few of the modern SXS rifles offer 458 win and 375 H&H chamberings. These are significantly higher pressure than the vintage African calibers. I "think" Heym may be included in those manufacturers?
This all goes back to trying to achieve that (magical) 2150-2200 fps.
It is just a question!
I do not know how many times I have heard on this forum what a difference that 100 FPS makes (2050-2150 fps); albeit it is in regard primarly to elephant hunting. Not that this cartridge was designed for that purpose.

quote:

Originally posted by eezridr:

This all comes down to my final question. Can you safely reload a 450 / 400 (3") to 2150 - 2200 fps and have it regulate in a double rife?
To be optimum, it would appear that it could use another 100-150 FPS velocity.
This might also flatten out the trajectory a little for longer shots with a scope.
I know lot of folks are going to reply just use a 416 / 500 but that is not the question.
Anyone have any loads out there they might want to share?

EZ

In answer to your first question,
Yes, if the DR is regulated for 2150 - 2200 fps.


You talk about flatten out trajectory for longer shots, then say
it is predominantly regarding Elephant ???

All I ever seem to read is Elephant shots are close, not long.

Why the bent on the velocity ??? velocity doesn't equal penetration.

quote:

Originally posted by eezridr:
Chris, I suspect a modern Heym is easily capable of handling a "little" extra pressure.

It's not really a pressure issue. I'm sure there's a combination of powders that will get the 400 to a higher velocity and still be under pressure, but there is no factory ammo loaded to these higher velocities. All ammon makers are trying to stick to the historical velocities.

500N,

I am not trying to enter a debate. However, you are going to stir up a hornets nest on this thread when you bring up penetration and velocity, momentum, SD, flat point vs. round nose; OH BOY!!
I am trying to visualize the best capability of the cartridge and piece together the comments from this forum.
I do not own a double in this caliber as yet; I do have a 470 Nitro; 88B Safari and very much like the gun.
If I were to purchase another double in the future, It would be a classic caliber such as the 450 / 400.
I would leave off the scope. I have bolts for extended range applications.

It just so haens that my British 450/400 3 1/4" regulates with 400gr Woodleighs at 2200fps.

I have taken, deer & wild pigs in Texas, black bear in montana, 2 caribou in Alaska, one caribou at @185 yards.

Before I tool it ot Zimbabwe, I scoped it with a S&B 1.1-4 With illuminated flash dot.

In Zum I shot baboon, warthog, zebra, and lion with the scope, cape buff and bull elephant with the irons.

My wife killed a cape buff with it as well.

Many of the original 450/400 3" Jeffery doubles were regulated with the Tropical Load, 55 gr of Cordite instead of 60.

There velocities were probably around 1950 to 2050fps.

I have never seen anything in print in the old African books where ANYONE complained about the 450/400's killing power.

quote:

Originally posted by eezridr:
500N,

I am not trying to enter a debate. However, you are going to stir up a hornets nest on this thread when you bring up penetration and velocity, momentum, SD, flat point vs. round nose; OH BOY!!
I am trying to visualize the best capability of the cartridge and piece together the comments from this forum.
I do not own a double in this caliber as yet; I do have a 470 Nitro; 88B Safari and very much like the gun.
If I were to purchase another double in the future, It would be a classic caliber such as the 450 / 400.
I would leave off the scope. I have bolts for extended range applications.

You are all over the place with your questions and answers on this thread.

"This might also flatten out the trajectory a little for longer shots with a scope."

So since the first post of your,
- you are now you are going to leave out the scope as you have BA's for longer shots.
- it's now About Elephant which AFAIK are mostly close shots

You were the one who bought up velocity, not me.

As a number of people have posted, it will make FA difference whether it is 2050, 2100, 2150 or 2200 fps and some guns will shoot 2200, some 2150, some 2100 but no cartridge company will make 2200 fps ammo.

Why would they - the majority of the market for this ammo is older guns, not new one's.

Chris,
were you shooting factory ammo or handloads? how fast was your ammo?

quote:

Originally posted by new_guy:
As much as anyone, I understand the desire to "improve" things, but the 400 has been working just fine for over 100-years.

Hans is right - you won't find a manufacturer (in a CIP country) that's going to regulate the rifle with your loads.

That's the whole idea behind CIP regulation - to assure the customer that both the rifle and ammo are safe.

I shot two buffalo last year with a new 450/400. This one ran @ 30-yards.



This one ran @ 20.


Neither had anything to say about the need to increase the velocity.

500N,

It was never about anything other than; Can you get 2150 FPS out of the 450 /400 by hand loading. Does anyone have any load data?
Just a simple question.

Chris,

Nice Bulls, what country did you shoot them?

quote:

Originally posted by eezridr:
500N,

It was never about anything other than; Can you get 2150 FPS out of the 450 /400 by hand loading. Does anyone have any load data?
Just a simple question.

I expect with 28" bbls the HORNADY AMMO for the
450/400 3" yields 2150 fps. With 24" bbls I'd expect
2050 fps from the same box of ammo.

quote:

Originally posted by eezridr:
Chris,

Nice Bulls, what country did you shoot them?

Those were both shot with Gordon Duncan in Zim last August.

Bal - the loads were my own. Softs were 400 gr Swifts at 2090 (IIRC) and Hornady DGS solids at about the same. The Hornaday's shot well enough, but that rifle LOVED the Swifts and shot them "lights out."

quote:

Originally posted by 500N:
I would say you get more of a noticeable effect on game when you get above 2300 - 2400 fps.

I haven't seen game not die just because the bullet was going at 2050 fps.

2050, 2150 fps, 100 fps is not going to make that much difference.

In my experience, all with the 458, the difference, using 500gr Woodleigh solids at 2050fps and then at 2145fps - what I get from my rifle, is tremendous. Remarkable on buff and more so one elephants. This in regard to both the effect on the animal when the bullet strikes and on penetration.

The difference is a hell of a lot more than one would expect with only 100fps difference. It seems that the 2050fps mark in just this side of sufficient, while 2145fps isoffers a leque of improvement.

Not critical on buff, imo, but noticable, critical for eles though, since even on the internet not every brain shot is going to be perfect. For a body shot on an ele, a North Fork offers a tremendous penetration avantage, as would a GS Custom.

JPK

EZ,

Confidence in your rifle is a very important requirement for hunting eles close, in the thick stuff. I do not know where or how you will hunt them, but when the visibility drops and you are close to eles, especially cows, and they are hard to avoid at times, your rifle starts feeling awfully small, even when you have great confidence in it.

As worried as you are about the 450/400, maybe you ought to be looking into a 450NE or a 470NE instead; they are in an entirely different league. Of it is the 40's for you, maybe a 500/416, which offers performance a big step or two greater than the 450/400, with real world velocity of 2250-2300fps with 400 or 410gr solids and softs.

JPK

I loaded my 450/400 rounds to around 2130fps give or take 20fps.
A bloody nice setup!

JPK and Oz Hunter; Thank you for your insight.
1) JPK; I do have a 470, 88 B. I was looking perhaps for a little brother. Also have a Lott and 416 Remington.
2) OZ hunter; thank you for the tip!

EZ

Also,the US manufacturer recommended 2150fps for that particular rifle.
I would be happy to get 2100+fps in this round, and was.

The Hornady's (softs) go 2050 from my 450/400....max was 2070 and min was 2040. 24" barrels.

Gary
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