Looking for a load for my .450 No 2 using IMR 3031. I am using 83.5 grains of 3031 in my 475 No. 2's but don't know a starting point for the .450 No 2.

Same thing. Maybe 2-3 grains less to start.
Cal

quote:

Originally posted by Dutch44:
Looking for a load for my .450 No 2 using IMR 3031. I am using 83.5 grains of 3031 in my 475 No. 2's but don't know a starting point for the .450 No 2.

Dutch;

I do not have a .450 #2, but I ran the virtual ballistics software program using 83.5 grs of 3031 with a Woodleigh 480 gr RN SP projectile, .458" dia, bullet length of 1.26", seating depth of 0.255", cartridge OAL of 4.330",and 26" barrel length. This produced a virtual ballistic of 2080 fps, 4612 lbs energy (both at muzzle), with a chamber pressure of 29,750 psi.

I suspect that you have a great deal of experience with 3031 and know that 3031 is heat sensitive as I learned the hard way. I have also learned that 3031 is very pressure (chamber pressure) sensitive to increased bullet seating depth, even slight increased depth. However, I like 3031 and use it in one of my favorite loads.

I agree with Cal and I believe starting at 80 or less grains of 3031 would be prudent and very prudent to measure the velocity when firing that load to establish a basis to work with. As a matter of fact in my case, I would start with 75 grains of 3031 and measure the velocity.

I do have a concern that the data above could be in question as Graeme Wright says in his book that 107 grains of 4831 with 24 inch barrel and same Woodleight bullet produces 2050 fps for the .450 No. 2 NE. I have found in the past that it takes more 4831 propellant to produce the same velocity as 3031, however the difference between 107 grains of 4831 and 80 grains of 3031 seems odd.

Kindest Regards

Thank you both for the replies. I used 115 grains of IMR 4831 in my .475 but JJ thought this too much. I'm going to start with 80 grains of 3031 for the .450 and go from there, as suggested. Thanks again. Will keep you updated.

Dutch;

The virtual ballistic software shows that at 80 grains of 3031 for the .450 No 2 cartridge case you will only fill 59.2% of it. A fill on top of the propellant would be prudent.

I will be interested in knowing if you are able to get 2,000 fps with 80 grains of 3031.

Kindest Regards

quote:

Originally posted by Dutch44:
Thank you both for the replies. I used 115 grains of IMR 4831 in my .475 but JJ thought this too much. I'm going to start with 80 grains of 3031 for the .450 and go from there, as suggested. Thanks again. Will keep you updated.

Woodleigh manual shows 105-107 grains of H4831SC for the .450 No.2
Personally I am uncomfortable with IMR3031 in the big case Nitro Express cartridges given the reports of aforementioned pressure excursion problems that have damaged a few rifles. One may note that Woodleigh and Graeme Wright do not use it in their loadings, though back in the 1980’s it was used and published by Jack Lott and Elmer Keith.

In the 1980s several reports surfaced of 3031 and a secondary explosion (hang fire?) that damaged a few vintage doubles. This was when I was first developing an interest in double rifles. I searched, called, wrote and could find only secondary information (...I heard...). I could not find any concrete information. No photos, no one what it happened to, etc. Yes, doubles (and other firearms, too) have been damaged by over loading, too heavy projectile, too large a projectile in diameter, etc.

I use 3031 in my nitro doubles where the case is too small for 4831, such as the .280 and .300 flanged, and the .350 no2, and others of like size (case capacity).

IMR 4831 has served me so well I have kept using it even though others, such as RL 15, will produce the same velocity at safe pressures with less recoil.

I used 3031 in black powder express cases but it was a bit too slow to burn 100% with lighter express bullets so I switched to 4198 in the late 1980s. 3031 will work in the larger nitro cases with a filler to keep the powder next to the primer for positive ignition. Since I prefer not to use fillers if I don't have to, that is also why I keep using IMR 4831.

That said, almost all powders will work, such as 4895 and 4350 with adjustments made for burn rate. But, if something works, I don't experiment further.

Just my two cents (or 100 trillion Zim) worth.
Cal

I don’t know Cal, I guess to each his own as to the decision to use IMR3031 in Large Case Nitro Express Rifles.
Yes, Elmer Keith and Jack Lott used it in the ‘60’s & ‘70’s, however both Graeme Wright and Sherman Bell are wary of using it and have published their reasoning and findings.

Even as far back as 1982 when I started with my 1st double rifles I read of the anecdotal evidence that 3031 was a risk and so never used it. I was happy with IMR4064 and Dacron filler in the .470 and IMR4831 in the .450/.400 3”

Graeme Wright mentions in his book “Shooting the British Double Rifle” Volume III, Chapter 5, page 86 of having examined 1st hand a double that blew a chamber on a load of IMR3031.

I figure “why chance it” with my nice old Nitro rifles, as well as my body parts, when there are more modern well tested alternative powders published and easily available.
I leave 3031 for my .308/7.62

- Mike

Yes back in the 70s, double rifles were relatively cheap and there was very little data on how to load them, except the articles on using 3031. (Most of which I still have). BPEs were easily available for less than $1K and even Nitro guns were cheap. But no brass, or data.
But, there is one thing I always did; use a filler. Not a wad; that can be like a bore (chamber) obstruction if it is tight. I used to use Kapok. I now use foam filler rod. Those will compress and won't form an obstruction. A friend ringed the chamber of his 405 on the first shot using a hard wad over a less than 100 fill load. Point is, don't have a half full case of powder laying on its side.

JJ is old school on double rifle powder and always regulates with 3031 and swears by it..

I much prefer H4831 and 4350..4350 creates less recoil Ive noticed..I also used RL-15 for years in the 450-400s and 470..All good enough powders.

My only complaint with 3031 was it could really spike with very little increase in powder, so you had to be on the watch..

quote:

Originally posted by dpcd:
Yes back in the 70s, double rifles were relatively cheap and there was very little data on how to load them, except the articles on using 3031. (Most of which I still have). BPEs were easily available for less than $1K and even Nitro guns were cheap. But no brass, or data.
But, there is one thing I always did; use a filler. Not a wad; that can be like a bore (chamber) obstruction if it is tight. I used to use Kapok. I now use foam filler rod. Those will compress and won't form an obstruction. A friend ringed the chamber of his 405 on the first shot using a hard wad over a less than 100 fill load. Point is, don't have a half full case of powder laying on its side.

JJ does still use 3031,& I have heard him say that he has seen a lot of ringed chambers & such by the use of 3031,the use of wads will get you in trouble real quick,just as dpcd describes,any air space while using a wad or even a filler = ringed chamber unfortunately.

When I bought my 450Ne it came with a 3031 load that shot very well but chronied at 1900fps. Searching for the magical 2150fps I started to increase the load 1 grain at a time. If I remember correctly after at least a 10% increase in powder I was showing no increase in velocity, I had read about "flat spots" with increasing pressures and thought it would be better to quit there then see if I could work through it. I had also received my copy of G Wrights British Doubles which probably kept me from harming my 100 year old double.
I do continue to use the 3031 load as a practice load

An article appeared in Magnum Magazine in SA a few years ago of a man who blew his vintage .360 No 2 up with 3031. It is very much NOT the powder to use in high-capacity bottle-neck NE cartridges! It burns way too fast, and there are better choices of propellants available today.

I know Graeme Wright personally and I can attest to the fact that he will warn all and sundry of the dangers of using 3031 in certain cartridges.

How can JJ use so much 3031 and describe it as ringing chambers which it does on occasions..That sounds like a double edged sword.

In a double use H4831, or RL-15 is what Ive done for years without any problems..It keeps thigs simple.

Keep in mind that there are more old wives tales in the world of the double gun than anywhere else in Gundome!!