quote:

Originally posted by crbutler:
I just think stating shoot 2, load 2 more rounds in the rifle and shoot 2 more is a test that the double will win.

How about shoot 3 from a spot, then on the run load the rifle, and at a second spot shoot 3. If the gun doesn't hold 3, you will do a standing reload at that point. 2 extra reloads will eat you up.

I can wager that most of us would have a better time score with a bolt gun than a double doing that "test" drill...

I just don't think a double is the only way to hunt DG- or that only DR shooters are really good at shooting.

Again, point missed. The scenario did not dictate shoot 2 load 2 and therefore was not biased towards doubles. It dictated, shoot as many at each target as you want with a minimum of 2 on each target. Then the score would be divided by time. If a guy was fast and accurate with the bolt, and could load on the move afterword, it would have benefited him to shoot 4 then load 4 on the move. But, for some reason, everyone of the shooters I watched fired 2 and only 2 at each target.

CRB, in your previous post, you stated this course was biased toward doubles. But it really wasn't because the shooters were encouraged to shoot as many as they wanted to at each target. But taking that statement, how often do we hear about how superior the bolt gun is for 3 shots? Well, is that test not biased in favor of the bolt gun?

I think Walt posted the "wisest" comment of the thread and that is "You need to know the weak points of each type and try to stay out of situations where that weakness could be a problem".

I agree that doubles are not the only way to hunt DG. I've hunted Buff, Lion, Leopard, and Hippo with a bolt gun and did fine with each. Except that the trigger on my 416 Ribgy CZ disconnected when I first tried to shoot my Buff. Had to repair it before we could continue hunting and lost a day in the process. If I'd had a double, I would have had another option. Come to think of it, maybe that's why I prefer doubles now for DG!

Sounds an awful lot to me like an in/under experienced shooter with the bolt guns.


I can run my 375 ICL fast enough that I've twice had people comment on the "semi auto" after a couple of close range encounters with furry, toothed animals.

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

quote:

Originally posted by crbutler:
I just think stating shoot 2, load 2 more rounds in the rifle and shoot 2 more is a test that the double will win.

How about shoot 3 from a spot, then on the run load the rifle, and at a second spot shoot 3. If the gun doesn't hold 3, you will do a standing reload at that point. 2 extra reloads will eat you up.

I can wager that most of us would have a better time score with a bolt gun than a double doing that "test" drill...

I just don't think a double is the only way to hunt DG- or that only DR shooters are really good at shooting.

Again, point missed. The scenario did not dictate shoot 2 load 2 and therefore was not biased towards doubles. It dictated, shoot as many at each target as you want with a minimum of 2 on each target. Then the score would be divided by time. If a guy was fast and accurate with the bolt, and could load on the move afterword, it would have benefited him to shoot 4 then load 4 on the move. But, for some reason, everyone of the shooters I watched fired 2 and only 2 at each target.

CRB, in your previous post, you stated this course was biased toward doubles. But it really wasn't because the shooters were encouraged to shoot as many as they wanted to at each target. But taking that statement, how often do we hear about how superior the bolt gun is for 3 shots? Well, is that test not biased in favor of the bolt gun?

I think Walt posted the "wisest" comment of the thread and that is "You need to know the weak points of each type and try to stay out of situations where that weakness could be a problem".

I agree that doubles are not the only way to hunt DG. I've hunted Buff, Lion, Leopard, and Hippo with a bolt gun and did fine with each. Except that the trigger on my 416 Ribgy CZ disconnected when I first tried to shoot my Buff. Had to repair it before we could continue hunting and lost a day in the process. If I'd had a double, I would have had another option. Come to think of it, maybe that's why I prefer doubles now for DG!

Was everyone shooting together?


Fairly common, at least IME, if the guys were running through the course together, to shoot the same number of shots as the other guys you're with.....

No, they shot one at a time and it was each shooter's first time through the course. The others waited about 300 yards away, on the other side of a pond (or tank, depending on where you are from) so they couldn't see what targets appeared or at what point in the course.

Yeah, your probably right. ALL the bolt shooters were beginners and ALL the double shooters were experts! That's the difference!

I've shot enough 3 gun and IPSC to realize that if you have to shoot 2, reload 2 more, you are going to kill your score by taking more time. With your test here, your score goes up by addition, and gets divided by time (ie multiples). Not quite apples/oranges, but close enough.

Yes, my point was that if you mandated 3/3 your double shooters would now all be behind the average bolt shooter because of the manual of arms involved.

I would not consider myself "good" with a double, but so far, I would call myself competent with a bolt gun. I fumble around way too much trying to drop the 2 rounds into the chambers with a double to say the same here with that gun.

I have done the drill you described with a .470 double, and a .308 scout rifle for a bolt- thus giving the bolt gun several advantages I would not get in a real DG hunting situation, and while I have yet to put 100 rounds through the double, I was roughly 3-5 seconds faster with the double than the bolt gun.

Walt is right that each has strengths and weaknesses. My point is that the test involved is not showing that, it is showcasing one of the reasons that a double is a great stopper when SHTF.

You are right for you in that the double is what you prefer.

In my case, both have their advantages and disadvantages, and I need to work a lot more with the double to feel as comfortable with it as a bolt rifle, notwithstanding doing that particular drill and beating the pants off my bolt rifle scores with the double.

Its just that the whole test and the commentary on the relative strengths and weaknesses have to be judged from the position that the test has biases.

Or to put it another way, how would you have felt about your chosen gun if you went to a firearms training center, they tested you with a bunch of others, and the guys with a gun that was favored all score better? Would you be starting to have doubts about your ability to perform, or your safety? Would you be saying I need a different rifle, these guys just showed me why what I have is not going to be optimal?


Now, to be fair, I think that this particular test is a good practice drill for both guns. I do it myself in trying to improve my skills; its just not a fair way to compare the various advantages of the two differing weapons systems in and of itself.

Maybe a semantic argument, but ain't that what the net is for?

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:
No, they shot one at a time and it was each shooter's first time through the course. The others waited about 300 yards away, on the other side of a pond (or tank, depending on where you are from) so they couldn't see what targets appeared or at what point in the course.

Yeah, your probably right. ALL the bolt shooters were beginners and ALL the double shooters were experts! That's the difference!

Thats what I mean, they were all shooting together. As in they could hear and/or see each other shooting. Fairly common to fire the same amount of ammo in that sort of "stage" or "event"


That said, if the shooters of the bolt guns were fumbling reloads, and having issues working the bolt, they were obviously lacking proficiency. Though I would also wonder if shooting bottle neck cartridges didn't also offer up some of the issues. I know my 375's just about fall right into battery.

Over on africahunting.com they've reported on a survey of African PHs about what kinds of rifles they want their clients to bring. There are separate categories for plains game and dangerous game.

For “Dangerous” Game (Buffalo, Lion, Elephant, Rhino, or Hippo):

1st. Choice is 375 H with 54 votes
2nd Choice is 416 Rem with 11 votes
3rd Choice is the 458 Win or Lott, and Misc. Double Rifles.

Doesn't speak too highly for doubles among those who actually see a lot of game shot.

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:
No, they shot one at a time and it was each shooter's first time through the course. The others waited about 300 yards away, on the other side of a pond (or tank, depending on where you are from) so they couldn't see what targets appeared or at what point in the course.

!

quote:

Originally posted by AK_Stick:

Thats what I mean, they were all shooting together. As in they could hear and/or see each other shooting.

There seems to be some misscomunication here!

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:
No, they shot one at a time and it was each shooter's first time through the course. The others waited about 300 yards away, on the other side of a pond (or tank, depending on where you are from) so they couldn't see what targets appeared or at what point in the course.

!

quote:

Originally posted by AK_Stick:

Thats what I mean, they were all shooting together. As in they could hear and/or see each other shooting.

There seems to be some misscomunication here!

BINGO!

quote:

Originally posted by crbutler:
With your test here, your score goes up by addition, and gets divided by time (ie multiples). Not quite apples/oranges, but close enough.

Well, not exactly. The score goes up by multiples as well. Remember, a kill shot does not score 1 point, it scores 5 points. So putting more kill shots on target in a timely manner will result in a higher score, even when divided by time!

Two kill shots are not 1+1 but rather 2X5; 4 shots are not 1+1+1+1 but rather 4X5!

That being the case, and with the consensus being that 3 or 4 shots with a bolt gun are faster than 3 or 4 shots with a double, would it not make sense for the bolt users to try and get off at least 3 rounds before walking to the next target while the double shooters should stick with 2 rounds?

Remember also that the score was not divided by the time to shoot but the total time through the course from start to finish. There was plenty of time for the bolt shooters to load 3 or 4 instead of just 2 between each station. Why they chose to only shoot 2 at each target, I don't know. But what killed the bolt shooters' scores was their time through the course was significantly slower than the double shooters, due to the amount of time it took them to reload while walking or correct loading mistakes made while walking and reloading.

Here is a little clip of what I'm talking about. The first is one of the class clients. Why he chose to reload after 2 shots, I don't know. He could have just loaded no. 3 then 4. But he didn't. He reloaded.

The second is me shooting the charge simulator 4 times with my double.

We were both shooting from the exact same location. Difference is that I shot the simulator all 4 times and he shot it twice, then switched to the other buff target next to the simulator which was stationary. The bolt shooter reloaded from his belt while I reloaded from loops on my shirt. The only other variable I can think of is that I had seen the charge simulator before and he had not. However, I shot 4 times at a moving target while he shot 2 at a moving target and 2 at a stationary target.

Again, if you go back to my original post, I was trying to keep as much opinion out of the statement of observation. Why the bolt shooters shot 2 and reloaded each time is a mystery to me. I'm only stating that this is what I witnessed, not explaining why it went this way.

Click here to view.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mmAOF3KtR9M

The most dangerous game in the world is man, I can't think of any army around the world who have been, or are, equipped with double rifles.

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:
No, they shot one at a time and it was each shooter's first time through the course. The others waited about 300 yards away, on the other side of a pond (or tank, depending on where you are from) so they couldn't see what targets appeared or at what point in the course.

!

quote:

Originally posted by AK_Stick:

Thats what I mean, they were all shooting together. As in they could hear and/or see each other shooting.

There seems to be some misscomunication here!

There's no miss communication.

The whole group was shooting together. They went through the stage separately, but they were all there at the same time. Standing 300 yards away, is certainly within hearing distance, unless yards have a different measurement in the lower 48. It wasn't like it was one shooter per day, and no one was around to hear/see the others shooting.

Just hearing the shooting of a lane, is enough to influence people. If everyone is firing two shots, reloading, two more etc. The shooters will naturally, after hearing 2-3 repetitions of that, do the same thing when they get to the stage. See it all the time with our training lanes in the .mil.

Eagle27, this subject has been debated and will be for many more years but your post explains EXACTLY why people spend a lot of money on doubles to hunt with. It is the ONLY rifle action developed SOLELY for hunting and therein for me is the romance. First two shots quicker than anything else, after I guess the bolt has it but after two I am hoping if the chips are down my PH is going to start helping. As I have said elsewhere, you never really own a fine double, you merely look after it for another generation, much the same in my opinion as fine art, I could never feel that way about a bolt action, best, Mike

quote:

Originally posted by Mike Bailey:
Eagle27, this subject has been debated and will be for many more years but your post explains EXACTLY why people spend a lot of money on doubles to hunt with. It is the ONLY rifle action developed SOLELY for hunting and therein for me is the romance. First two shots quicker than anything else, after I guess the bolt has it but after two I am hoping if the chips are down my PH is going to start helping. As I have said elsewhere, you never really own a fine double, you merely look after it for another generation, much the same in my opinion as fine art, I could never feel that way about a bolt action, best, Mike

Mike, I was being a bit tongue in cheek and not intending to take my statement too seriously.
I know how and why the double was invented or developed and it really was for a specialist role in hunting, not as many would have us believe today, as an all round rifle suitable for any and every type of shooting, that is really the realm of the bolt action.

Despite the romance and specialist role of the double, not even the professionals of yesteryear stuck by it in all the hunting they did. Many of them used bolt actions, some exclusively, and among those that did use doubles it was usually not to the exclusion of using bolt actions too.

Today, cost would be the main inhibiting factor for many who may want to own and use double rifles but back in the days of ivory hunting or safari guiding those hunters of old, and not so old e.g. Harry Selby, could afford both and very often chose or at least used bolt actions for much of their hunting.

Of course the dynamics of hunting in Africa have change now and I think the concept of a foreign hunter protecting himself and his party from danger through using a double with it's two fast and reliable shots is just not relevant anymore. More often than not the PH is in action after the very first shot fired if it is a life threatening situation. I take nothing away from those that own and use doubles and they are as entitled to romanticise as much as any of us as we face DG. Down to earth though there is always someone at our shoulder who will have far more experience and skill under those particularly circumstances to ensure we are kept safe and return to our homes.

As for having an affinity with particular rifles and looking after them for future generations, I think my Type A 404 Mauser easily falls into that category. Coming from Africa I'm sure there are many a good tale this rifle could tell and in my own hands it has slayed a few Aussie buffalo. I hope one day soon it will return to Africa and once again perform as a classic DG Mauser rifle does. My oldest son will continue the ownership of this fine example of craftmanship when I no longer hunt.
I don't know that I would go so far as to describe the 404 as fine art, I regard it more as a trusted friend who gets the job done without frills and without question. That's my kind of rifle.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
I knew it was just a poor sample group. Several posts on this thread prove the point that had the AR bolt action shooters been there the result would have been far different.

Sorry Eagle27, I wasn´t being flippant and for sure your PH is more likely to have a bolt and, as you say, a lot of pros used them in the old days too, I know that for 99% of situations a bolt is better but I´m hoping that next year I am on an ele hunt in N Mozambique. If I couldn´t do it with my double, I wouldn´t want to do it and that, I know is crass stupidity and stubborness, but there we go best, Mike

quote:

Originally posted by eagle27:


Of course the dynamics of hunting in Africa have change now and I think the concept of a foreign hunter protecting himself and his party from danger through using a double with it's two fast and reliable shots is just not relevant anymore. More often than not the PH is in action after the very first shot fired if it is a life threatening situation. I take nothing away from those that own and use doubles and they are as entitled to romanticise as much as any of us as we face DG. Down to earth though there is always someone at our shoulder who will have far more experience and skill under those particularly circumstances to ensure we are kept safe and return to our homes.

I just can't buy this. It is often stated but the simple fact is that the PH, as skilled as he is, is still human. He is capable of missing a shot. He is capable of finding himself out of position. Many times, he can't afford or does not have access to a top quality rifle. He may be shooting reloads that a client left in camp, and those loads may be too hot for his rifle causing the bolt to stick or any number of other problems. There is a very well known and respected PH who posts here on this forum that has had his bolt rifle jamb several times, and on video. He has a 500 double but has been unable to get it into the country as of yet, and that is after trying for 2 or 3 years now. On his latest video, he points out 2 distinct instances where a double would have prevented the situation that developed. If you think the PH is going to "ensure we are kept safe and return to our homes" 100% of the time, you're dreaming! Yes, DG hunting is really "potentially" DG hunting today. But make no mistake, that "potential" can turn to "reality" in a heartbeat.

I really think guys that go on DG hunts with the attitude that the PH is going to save their bacon should SHTF are not doing themselves or the PHs any favors. IMO, the real skill of the PH is in accessing the situation and then maneuvering the party in a way that controls the risk of danger. How to approach a herd of Elephant, select the one to take, take it and get out without being turned into toe jam is something I don't have a clue about. The PH does and that is what I rely on the PH for! Even so, sometimes things happen that go against the plan. At this point, when the SHTF, I want to be able to shoot as well as any PH, and with the largest weapon that I can become proficient with, regardless of how much time and dedication it takes to achieve that level of proficiency. After all, the range time working up to a DG hunt is a large part of the fun.

If you aren't willing to put in the time necessary to become proficient with true DG cartridges and prefer to take the old scoped 375 out to the range a couple of times prior to boarding the jet, placing all of your butt saving faith in the PH, so be it. But truth be told, you're putting undue responsibility on the PH and I dare say that you aren't getting the most out of what DG hunting is all about if you undertake that adventure without having 100% confidence in your own ability to handle the shooting part of deal.

And again, nothing in what I just said suggests an advantage of double guns over bolt guns. Rather an attitude of not relying on the PH to do your shooting for you if the situation becomes uncontrolled. If you poll DG PHs, I'll wager their preference will be for a competent rifleman standing next to them shooting a large rifle proficiently over a guy with his 375 shouting "Save Me, Save Me" should the need arise!

Todd, how I envy you guys in the States ! We have ONE range in Spain, near Madrid, a 7 hour drive for me. It is ILLEGAL to practice anywhere else despite the fact that about 30% of Spaniards hunt ??! So they do it illegally but if you get caught you lose your license for 5 years and your firearms are impounded. My only serious practice option is to fly to the UK and visit a shooting school for a day. I would love to be able to visit a range once a week for the day but it isn´t going to happen. I do practice with a .22 air rifle in my garden but it isn´t quite the same ! Eagle27, if it were absolutely sure we were "kept safe and returned to our homes" I´m not sure I´d bother ! best, Mike

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

quote:

Originally posted by eagle27:


Of course the dynamics of hunting in Africa have change now and I think the concept of a foreign hunter protecting himself and his party from danger through using a double with it's two fast and reliable shots is just not relevant anymore. More often than not the PH is in action after the very first shot fired if it is a life threatening situation. I take nothing away from those that own and use doubles and they are as entitled to romanticise as much as any of us as we face DG. Down to earth though there is always someone at our shoulder who will have far more experience and skill under those particularly circumstances to ensure we are kept safe and return to our homes.

I just can't buy this. It is often stated but the simple fact is that the PH, as skilled as he is, is still human. He is capable of missing a shot. He is capable of finding himself out of position. Many times, he can't afford or does not have access to a top quality rifle. He may be shooting reloads that a client left in camp, and those loads may be too hot for his rifle causing the bolt to stick or any number of other problems. There is a very well known and respected PH who posts here on this forum that has had his bolt rifle jamb several times, and on video. He has a 500 double but has been unable to get it into the country as of yet, and that is after trying for 2 or 3 years now. On his latest video, he points out 2 distinct instances where a double would have prevented the situation that developed. If you think the PH is going to "ensure we are kept safe and return to our homes" 100% of the time, you're dreaming! Yes, DG hunting is really "potentially" DG hunting today. But make no mistake, that "potential" can turn to "reality" in a heartbeat.

I really think guys that go on DG hunts with the attitude that the PH is going to save their bacon should SHTF are not doing themselves or the PHs any favors. IMO, the real skill of the PH is in accessing the situation and then maneuvering the party in a way that controls the risk of danger. How to approach a herd of Elephant, select the one to take, take it and get out without being turned into toe jam is something I don't have a clue about. The PH does and that is what I rely on the PH for! Even so, sometimes things happen that go against the plan. At this point, when the SHTF, I want to be able to shoot as well as any PH, and with the largest weapon that I can become proficient with, regardless of how much time and dedication it takes to achieve that level of proficiency. After all, the range time working up to a DG hunt is a large part of the fun.

If you aren't willing to put in the time necessary to become proficient with true DG cartridges and prefer to take the old scoped 375 out to the range a couple of times prior to boarding the jet, placing all of your butt saving faith in the PH, so be it. But truth be told, you're putting undue responsibility on the PH and I dare say that you aren't getting the most out of what DG hunting is all about if you undertake that adventure without having 100% confidence in your own ability to handle the shooting part of deal.

And again, nothing in what I just said suggests an advantage of double guns over bolt guns. Rather an attitude of not relying on the PH to do your shooting for you if the situation becomes uncontrolled. If you poll DG PHs, I'll wager their preference will be for a competent rifleman standing next to them shooting a large rifle proficiently over a guy with his 375 shouting "Save Me, Save Me" should the need arise!

A well known and respected PH, who continues to use a gun that does not function properly...does not matter bolt or double, that's just plain foolishness and dangerous...

With proper shot placement and well constructed bullet a 375, assume that you are speaking of a 375 H&H, is certainly adequate for taking DG.

There are reports, stories, etc even here on AR with poor shots from Bolt and Double rifles (even a 577 NE, VC) that resulted in charges / dangerous situations.

It's really about shot placement once you start with adequate caliber, bullet weight (construction) and proper functioning rifles.....

I shared a camps with 2 different guys, at different times, one using a 470 Double Rifle and another using a Weatherby Bolt. The fellow with the Double Rifle could not use it reliably and ended up wounding 2 Buffalo, both lost. The fellow with the Weatherby was using poorly constructed bullets that blew up on the shoulder shot, he lost a Buffalo as well.

It is up to the hunter to make sure his equipment works, that should include the rifle functioning properly, etc and the hunter should know how to use his equipment.......

quote:

Originally posted by Mike Bailey:
Todd, how I envy you guys in the States ! We have ONE range in Spain, near Madrid, a 7 hour drive for me. It is ILLEGAL to practice anywhere else despite the fact that about 30% of Spaniards hunt ??! So they do it illegally but if you get caught you lose your license for 5 years and your firearms are impounded. My only serious practice option is to fly to the UK and visit a shooting school for a day. I would love to be able to visit a range once a week for the day but it isn´t going to happen. I do practice with a .22 air rifle in my garden but it isn´t quite the same ! Eagle27, if it were absolutely sure we were "kept safe and returned to our homes" I´m not sure I´d bother ! best, Mike

Mike,

Man, 1 range 7 hours away and it's illegal to practice anywhere else? That is HARSH! Sometimes we forget how lucky we are in the US. We also have to remember we can loose our rights.

Must be tough not to be able to shoot that H&H Royal on a regular basis!

quote:

Originally posted by Mike Bailey:
Sorry Eagle27, I wasn´t being flippant and for sure your PH is more likely to have a bolt and, as you say, a lot of pros used them in the old days too, I know that for 99% of situations a bolt is better but I´m hoping that next year I am on an ele hunt in N Mozambique. If I couldn´t do it with my double, I wouldn´t want to do it and that, I know is crass stupidity and stubborness, but there we go best, Mike

Mike you are being too hard on yourself, taking your double on elephant will be the pinnacle of African hunting and if I was in your shoes I wouldn't want to do it any other way. Wish you all good luck and fortune and hope you can get in close and use that double to good effect. I'm sure you will.

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

quote:

Originally posted by eagle27:


Of course the dynamics of hunting in Africa have change now and I think the concept of a foreign hunter protecting himself and his party from danger through using a double with it's two fast and reliable shots is just not relevant anymore. More often than not the PH is in action after the very first shot fired if it is a life threatening situation. I take nothing away from those that own and use doubles and they are as entitled to romanticise as much as any of us as we face DG. Down to earth though there is always someone at our shoulder who will have far more experience and skill under those particularly circumstances to ensure we are kept safe and return to our homes.

I just can't buy this. It is often stated but the simple fact is that the PH, as skilled as he is, is still human. He is capable of missing a shot. He is capable of finding himself out of position. Many times, he can't afford or does not have access to a top quality rifle. He may be shooting reloads that a client left in camp, and those loads may be too hot for his rifle causing the bolt to stick or any number of other problems. There is a very well known and respected PH who posts here on this forum that has had his bolt rifle jamb several times, and on video. He has a 500 double but has been unable to get it into the country as of yet, and that is after trying for 2 or 3 years now. On his latest video, he points out 2 distinct instances where a double would have prevented the situation that developed. If you think the PH is going to "ensure we are kept safe and return to our homes" 100% of the time, you're dreaming! Yes, DG hunting is really "potentially" DG hunting today. But make no mistake, that "potential" can turn to "reality" in a heartbeat.

I really think guys that go on DG hunts with the attitude that the PH is going to save their bacon should SHTF are not doing themselves or the PHs any favors. IMO, the real skill of the PH is in accessing the situation and then maneuvering the party in a way that controls the risk of danger. How to approach a herd of Elephant, select the one to take, take it and get out without being turned into toe jam is something I don't have a clue about. The PH does and that is what I rely on the PH for! Even so, sometimes things happen that go against the plan. At this point, when the SHTF, I want to be able to shoot as well as any PH, and with the largest weapon that I can become proficient with, regardless of how much time and dedication it takes to achieve that level of proficiency. After all, the range time working up to a DG hunt is a large part of the fun.

If you aren't willing to put in the time necessary to become proficient with true DG cartridges and prefer to take the old scoped 375 out to the range a couple of times prior to boarding the jet, placing all of your butt saving faith in the PH, so be it. But truth be told, you're putting undue responsibility on the PH and I dare say that you aren't getting the most out of what DG hunting is all about if you undertake that adventure without having 100% confidence in your own ability to handle the shooting part of deal.

And again, nothing in what I just said suggests an advantage of double guns over bolt guns. Rather an attitude of not relying on the PH to do your shooting for you if the situation becomes uncontrolled. If you poll DG PHs, I'll wager their preference will be for a competent rifleman standing next to them shooting a large rifle proficiently over a guy with his 375 shouting "Save Me, Save Me" should the need arise!

Todd with respect you are reading me a little wrong. I have not suggested that anyone goes to Africa 'relying' on their PH to keep them out of trouble. Like going hunting in any situation, everyone should go prepared with what ever rifle they are taking to use in good operating condition, ammunition and accessories likewise, and have a decent skill level up to the standard required for that particular hunt. Like it or not Todd, it is a fact of life that you will have a PH or two on your shoulder ready and willing, some say too willing, to shoot at the first sign of trouble. You make a point that they may have faulty firearms, old or reloaded ammo, be out of position etc, etc, but the facts don't seem to bear that out. Much of the video we see and if the stories on AR and other like forums are representative of African hunting today, then we do not see or hear of hunters not returning home despite the facts of fluffed shots and poor handling and use of firearms on the continent by many visiting hunters.

I have seen the video you probably refer to where the PH suffers a non ejection problem with his bolt action but for all that he remains calm and collected to reload and knock the charging buffalo down while his clients shot/s do not seem to have any effect. Just exactly what a good experienced PH will do. I have probably been fortunate in that with my hunting of buffalo I did not have a PH at my shoulder and my hunting mate, although a very good shot, only had a 7x57 relying on head shots to put the animals down. Although we had animals facing off and the odd one coming in at close quarters I never doubted that my bolt action 404 would not do the job. It was almost too easy to place that front blade on target, pull the trigger, and see the 400gr solids knock them down. I'm a lefty too but the Mauser feeds like a hot knife through butter and ejects as surely as night and day and installs a confidence that a classic DG gun should. Had I had a double 450/400 I'm absolutely sure the result would have been the same.

So,like you Todd, I don't profess in anything I say to promote a double over a bolt or vice versa, in the hands of anyone with at least some skill appropriate for the hunt, either type of rifle will be perfectly adequate for the job

Todd, it is fantastically frustrating, even on private land it is illegal, behind my house is 12,000 hectares of forest, thats about 30,000 acres and they won´t let me set up a trap for clays. Our local clay shoot has closed as the guy who runs in won´t pay the insurance (the economy here really is bad, 30% unemployment), I have offered to buy the machine and pay the insurance but have spent 2 years in red tape ! best, Mike

quote:

Originally posted by eagle27:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Todd Williams:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by eagle27:


You make a point that they may have faulty firearms, old or reloaded ammo, be out of position etc, etc, but the facts don't seem to bear that out. Much of the video we see and if the stories on AR and other like forums are representative of African hunting today, then we do not see or hear of hunters not returning home despite the facts of fluffed shots and poor handling and use of firearms on the continent by many visiting hunters.

I have seen the video you probably refer to where the PH suffers a non ejection problem with his bolt action but for all that he remains calm and collected to reload and knock the charging buffalo down while his clients shot/s do not seem to have any effect.

I'd say that I can point to numerous video episodes that bare this out. There are also posts on this forum that bare this out. Begno had an encounter with a charging Buff that got to him and the PH. IIRC, it was Butch, the client that shot the Buff off the PH. The video I'm referring to was not an episode with a Buff but rather a Charging Tuskless Cow when the PH shot a left behind 416 Rigby hand load that locked up his action. Luckily, the first shot turned but did not stop the Cow. He finally got the action opened by hitting it repeatedly with the palm of his hand, then finished the Cow as she ran off. On the same DVD, his action jammed as he jacked the second round into it. The Cow Elephant (not tuskless) broke through the party and got the observer down on the ground. Luckily, she tossed him before getting him with a tusk, and the PH was finally able to shoot it off of him.

Take a look at Aaron Neilson's latest DVD. He and his PH got into a scrape with a charging buff. The PH got in one shot before being backed into a tree but Aaron turned it with a 577 shot to the Boss, then another to the shoulder.

Yep, for most situations, it is a "POTENTIALLY" dangerous game hunt. But it can turn real and you'll never know if your hunt will be that one. If it does turn real, I don't want to rely on the PH to save the day. He may very well be the one that DOES save the day, and in most instances, I'm sure he is fully capable of doing so. But I count on myself first.

An unfair question, I know. But how many dangerous game hunts have you been on in Africa with a PH Eagle? On a DG hunt in 09, my then 18 year old son and I were hunting Cape Buffalo. Our PH didn't have a gun of his own as he had been out of the business for awhile and had just gotten re-qualified. He borrowed a different gun from the outfitter each of our 5 days together. He started out with a Scoped Remmington Pump Actioned 30-06 for his stopping rifle! By day 4 he had a Brno 458 that looked like it had been used to take tires off rims at the local tire repair station. After we got my son's buffalo, he asked if he could shoot my 500NE. I said "sure". He's a PH right? Why would I need to instruct him on using a double? He proceeded to put both fingers into the trigger guard, pulled the front trigger and promptly doubled the rifle. It hit him square in the nose, he dropped the rifle, and fell on his ass, shaking his bloody face as if just hit by Mike Tyson. Bloodied his nose real good.

On that particular hunt, I felt assured having my 500NE double in my hands. I also had more confidence in my son with his 375 than our PH.

This thread has now drifted quite a bit but again, I'm not stating that there is anything wrong with bolt guns vs doubles. But when this issue came up again about relying on the PH to do the heavy lifting should SHTF, I had to say something about it.

When you leave your home in the morning the odds of you being involved in a serious traffic accident are very low and the odds of a police officer having to fire his side arm while on duty is even rarer. I doubt anyone one would advise you to not wear your seat belt or that a police officer leave his side arm home. The odds of having to use your rifle to defend yourself while on a DG hunt are higher than either of these.

465H&H

This reminds me of the old revolver /autoloader pistol debates back in the mid 70's when the so-called combat pistol matches got started.

It all boils down to the man behind the gun and tactics. He who hits first ( with enough gun makeing a telling shot, with a proper bullet) wins, Combat or dangerous game it’s the same.

You got to have good gear , and train to use it until it’s becomes automatic. It does't matter if it is mechanical problem or shooter induced, for every bolt gun that does not feed, there is a double that has doubled, they both become clubs at that point. If it happens it is bad either way.

The value of match shooting is that you train. A botched reload is a botched reloads a miss a miss! It doesn’t matter if it is a bolt gun, double, revolver, pistol. I know guys who can run their revolvers faster than they can run their autos. They can run their revolvers faster than you can run your auto. Same for boltguns and doubles. They are few but they are out there. They were not born that way! They trained to get there!

What’s faster shooting 3 shots vs. 4 shots is silly. In a dangerous contact man or beast if you can't get it done in two, you need more guns not a faster reload. Everybody has to carry their weight!!!

Out past 50 yards and futher bolt guns offer more accuracy and enough speed to have a slight advantage. The bigger the round the less advantage a bolt gun has. It takes more skill to run a 458 or 505 faster than a 308 (longer and bigger actions make for bigger rifles. More bolt travel and blunter bullets make it harder).

In close where there is less time to get it done and more stress, the double has the advantage. The bigger the round and the more dangerous the game, the more this is true.

In close if both guns fit well and shoot to were you look, first shot will be as fast with either bolt gun or double. 2nd shot with a double will be faster and easier to get back on target! It just is.

In close reloads don't count as much as being able hitting fast and hard and more importantly having more guns. Two rifles fire 2 or 4 shots faster than 1 rifle of any kind three rifles are faster than two!!!.


If you need the aid of sticks to make a killing shot at 50 yards, it doesn’t matter what you shoot you are not ready, the beast has the edge.


JD

It all boils down to the simple fact that as with any piece of mechanical equipment, the more movement of parts and/or the more repetitive movements needed to make the machine work properly, the more likely a malfunction will occur!

Being proficient with that mechanical tool, will not mitigate the likelihood of a malfunction caused by those more parts or movements. IOW, the more movement of parts, or more repetitive human moves needed, to accomplish the same goal, the higher instance of something being FU-BARed because of those extra parts or repetitive movements.

You know that this will likely be at the absolute wrong time, where dangerous game is concerned! This fact is what caused the outcome of the exercise witnessed by Todd at the Flying-B stopping rifle exercise.

On the wrong idea of expecting the PH to pull your nuts out of the fire:……………….

IMO, one should never leave home for a Safari even for plains game with a rifle that doesn’t work properly, or one he doesn’t know how to work properly, and not being capable of taking on anything he may encounter in the area he is to hunt.

This should be taken as if you would be hunting ALONE, and so be capable of protecting yourself and adequately armed.

As Todd says there is no guarantee that the PH will not be the first one hit, leaving you to shoot something off him! It makes little difference that you were not hunting dangerous game when a lion is chewing up your PH, nor will it make a difference to that PH that you are simply a client with an adequate rifle in your hands assuming his legal responsibility. Protecting yourself and others is everyone’s responsibility!

........................................................................................................................

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:


An unfair question, I know. But how many dangerous game hunts have you been on in Africa with a PH Eagle?

I don't mind the question, as I have referred often enough to the fact that I am still hoping to get to Africa for the first time one day. In saying this though, how many times would one have to hunt in Africa with a PH to get a picture of how good or bad they really are. Some who post here seem to strike a bad PH on their first trip while others who have been to Africa numerous times, never have a problem and never have a close shave when hunting. I guess Saeed would have been to Africa more than most and I don't recall him speaking of any bad or poorly prepared PH's that he has hunted with.

I suppose my point has been, and it started with a tongue in the cheek comment that where you need a fast, accurate operating firearm, easily reloaded and with a high reliability factor, wartime use has shown the bolt action to reign supreme (now taken over by the semi auto, although for many not the answer). Generally acknowledged as one of the best battle rifles ever produced and used in both wartime and peacetime was the 303 SMLE, nowadays looked down on when comparing the modern rifle. The reason for it's status is that it did exhibit all the factors needed to give the user the best chance of surviving in dangerous situations, speed, reliability, accuracy for purpose and ease of use.

Now go back to when the double rifle was first made, made by the European man to protect the white hunter almost always operating alone going about his business of hunting dangerous game for specimens, skins, ivory or horns with cartridges of the day generally too big to fit the bolt actions of the day. Things quickly changed, led by Mauser and the British gunmakers, and the big game magazine rifle then came to being with cartridges that could compete every bit as well with any of the double rifle cartridges. The double still had it's place back then and for those today owning them, still has it's place in Africa. However it is a clear fact that times and circumstances have changed and it is no longer a lone white hunter against that dangerous beast. Not knowing the statistics but I would bet that the large majority of hunters hunting dangerous animals in Africa or Australia today take bolt actions and all return home.

As I think everyone who posts here would acknowledge, it is the nut behind the butt and his or her ability to place a bullet in a killing spot that really counts. Personally from what I have observed over years of hunting and shooting both in my own country and others, if a hunter cannot accomplish that, it will not matter whether it is a bolt or a double being used, the animal will not be put down. In the case of dangerous game, then someone else has to do it for the hunter or it will take multiple shots, from all in the party to accomplish it.

I state again that nowhere have I advocated that any one goes hunting anywhere poorly prepared with sub-standard rifles or equipment and places their faith in someone else to keep them out of trouble.

quote:

Originally posted by eagle27:

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:


An unfair question, I know. But how many dangerous game hunts have you been on in Africa with a PH Eagle?

I don't mind the question, as I have referred often enough to the fact that I am still hoping to get to Africa for the first time one day. In saying this though, how many times would one have to hunt in Africa with a PH to get a picture of how good or bad they really are. Some who post here seem to strike a bad PH on their first trip while others who have been to Africa numerous times, never have a problem and never have a close shave when hunting. I guess Saeed would have been to Africa more than most and I don't recall him speaking of any bad or poorly prepared PH's that he has hunted with.

For me, it was Safari Number 5, and the ninth dangerous game animal hunted. Story related in the previous post.

PM sent Eagle.

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:
It all boils down to the simple fact that as with any piece of mechanical equipment, the more movement of parts and/or the more repetitive movements needed to make the machine work properly, the more likely a malfunction will occur!

Being proficient with that mechanical tool, will not mitigate the likelihood of a malfunction caused by those more parts or movements. IOW, the more movement of parts, or more repetitive human moves needed, to accomplish the same goal, the higher instance of something being FU-BARed because of those extra parts or repetitive movements.

You know that this will likely be at the absolute wrong time, where dangerous game is concerned! This fact is what caused the outcome of the exercise witnessed by Todd at the Flying-B stopping rifle exercise.

On the wrong idea of expecting the PH to pull your nuts out of the fire:……………….

IMO, one should never leave home for a Safari even for plains game with a rifle that doesn’t work properly, or one he doesn’t know how to work properly, and not being capable of taking on anything he may encounter in the area he is to hunt.

This should be taken as if you would be hunting ALONE, and so be capable of protecting yourself and adequately armed.

As Todd says there is no guarantee that the PH will not be the first one hit, leaving you to shoot something off him! It makes little difference that you were not hunting dangerous game when a lion is chewing up your PH, nor will it make a difference to that PH that you are simply a client with an adequate rifle in your hands assuming his legal responsibility. Protecting yourself and others is everyone’s responsibility!

........................................................................................................................

I agree totaly. Lets look at each design and the weakness of each.


Bolt gun

A control round feed type of bolt action is a solid design. The mag box, bolt rails and claw extractor are very reliable when set up properly they work. They are not very mechincal in nature. The box and rails are static, the extractor moves very little The parts are not prone to wear.

Major weakness is ammo. You can load a round in the box, that will not fit the chamber locking up the action. ( every round needs to be checked before departing for the trip). If a misfire occurs, you have to cycle the action. When a round sticks in the chamber during loading or extraction you have less leverage to get it unstuck and may be total out of action. Bullet movement do to recoil can cause a failure to feed. Shortstroke the bolt under stress is way too common.

Bolt guns have about the same # moveing parts as a double at fireing. Trigger trips sear -striker impacts primer round fires . The striker and trigger parts are more exposed than with a double, they can feeze up or gum up do to poor maintance, and are more subject to dirt. The parts generly have to move less than in a double and but are easier to service.

The bigest weakness in a bolt gun is that it can be short stroked and that the sear may not trap the striker leaving the rifle uncocked. They are more prone to locking up than doubles.

Stocks on bolt guns can be made bulletproof. Scope mouts are much stronger

Double rifle

The trigger release the hammer , Hammer rotates and strikes the fireing pins. Pins inpact primer -round fire. By design you have two guns, if you have a round fail to fire you just move your finger to the next system. Trigger and hammer move more than in bolt guns but they are better protected. less exposed and require less maintance. It does require more skill to service the trigger/hammer /safety group. Doubles are not prone to locking up, but if the action does get tired up you have more leverage to get it open. You can break break a double open over your knee if need. If a double has one weakness, it is too easy to double the rifle by touching the second trigger during recoil.

With sound quailty rifle it boils down to :

With a Bolt gun it's all about strokeing the bolt full lengh and ammo quailty.





with Double guns it is all about keeping your finger out of the second trigger.

JD