I've decided to sell/trade some of my high-end shotguns that I don't use any more. If I don't put it back into guns I'll spend it on something less satisfying. I'd like to get a DR that can be used for American game, for which ammo is easy to get and reload, and which will hold its value. I don't want some heavy stopping rifle, but rather a hammerless medium bore rifle like a 9.3X74R weighing under 8.5 pounds. I don't know much about the availability of ammo of English calibers, but availability and reasonable cost of ammo is critical. I would like the gun to appreciate in value, based upon past history. Your recommendations on makers and calibers would be extremely useful. Thanks in advance for your input. Oh yes, in terms of value, a ceiling of about $15K should be used.

Well, Hornady produces both 9.3x74R and 450/400NE now, I think either one would fit your needs well. I see a LOT of 9.3x74 rifles on the net though, most of them on the lower end of DR pricing scales, so maybe its not the best caliber choice to try and hold/gain value.

Be aware, as I am sure your are, that double rifles appeal to a minority of hunters in the USA. Then ask how many of this minority can afford to spend $15K on a gun? Just buy a gun that you enjoy looking at, fondling and shooting. I suspect that any appreciation will be due to increased cost of a new gun. Bear in mind that doubles are typically in rimmed rounds, most of which are European.
Peter.

I have a Merkel 160 in 9.3x74 which I like a lot. Do a search for First Stop Guns on Guns America and I believe they have a 160 in 8x57R with ejectors that looks really nice. You can get it for well under your budget and I think it would be great for North America.

A medium bore that is usable and appreciates and is under $15K....

That could be a double in .303 British from one of the London makers. But nobody except Kynamco is making .303 Brit with 215 grain bullets and Kynamco is not exporting that round to the USA.

Some of the old .350 Rigby No. 2 doubles have been bored out to 9.3x74R and command the prices of their makers on some dealers' sites. I've noted that some .375 H&H flanged magnums, for which Kynamco ammo is said to be available,
are for sale, but even the Grade 2 H&H double can go for around $25K. Boxlock Brit double rifles would be cheaper, but maybe not appreciate as much, and you MUST get a target shot at 100 yds AND someone knowledgeable to look any of these old doubles over. New these British guns are very, very expensive with H&H in their lowest model more than $50K.

Of the modern, cheaper guns, that may hold their value, seems like Heym is good and so is Searcy, at least the newer model Searcy doubles. Might find something used and interesting in those under $15K.

Regards

Vol717, the 9.3X74R is a very good rifle, and ammo is readily available..

Another great choice is a 450/400 which has a really mild recoil compared to the 45 caliber doubles and bigger ones... I have only shot one and it is real sweet to shoot...
Heym makes one it works well Boddington and wife used it on elephants...
As for weight an 8lb double in my opinion is too light.. A 9.5 lb rifle would be well balanced and a pleasure to shoot..


Mike

I would go with a Searcy, in 450-400. They are regulated with the Hornady ammunition these days.
Get as much wood as you can afford and a bit or scroll engraving.

Rich
Buff Killer

Let's see:

quote:

Originally posted by Vol717:
1. I'd like to get a DR that can be used for American game,

2. I don't want some heavy stopping rifle, but rather a hammerless medium bore rifle like a 9.3X74R weighing under 8.5 pounds.

3. for which ammo is easy to get and reload....availability and reasonable cost of ammo is critical.

4. I would like the gun to appreciate in value, based upon past history.

5. Oh yes, in terms of value, a ceiling of about $15K should be used.

So you want an investment grade medium bore double rifle suitable for North American use. That's easy. Not sure about what you've said in No. 3 above. If you require easy reloadability with easily available components at reasonable cost, that's easy. If you require easily available factory ammunition at reasonable cost, please don't buy a double rifle. Obtaining all of the above at $15K or less is a push in today's market.

True investment grade double rifles available at anywhere near that price range today are pre-war British, or perhaps high-quality pre-war European. At that price, these will be boxlocks. New rifles in this price range available today (Merkel, Chapuis, Heym, Krieghoff, Searcy, etc.) are far from investment grade. For example, 20 years ago, a Heym 88B Safari in .470 sold for $12,500. On the used market today, this rifle in excellent condition would bring $15 to 16K. At that time, you could have bought TWO nice boxlock British rifles instead - for an investment of 20% less than the cost of the one Heym - and they'd be worth $40K+ today.

A good quality pre-war European rifle might be found in that price range in 9.3X74R, 7X57R, 7X65R, 8X57R, etc. Factory ammunition is available - 9.3 more readily than the others - but none are available from Wally World and none are really cheap. All are readily reloadable.

The British chambered a plethora of medium bore cartridges that are superb for N. A. use. The .303 that Tim mentioned would be a good choice. Be aware that British .303 DRs tend to be quite old as orders for new .303 doubles fell way off after the .303 was banned in India in 1899. The range of mediums introduced by the British trade to replace it are also fine choices. These include .375 2 1/2" Flanged (Elmer Keith's favorite), .400/.350 NE, .350 No. 2 NE, and .400/.360 Purdey NE (there were also versions from Westley Richards, William Evans and Fraser). British rifles in 9.3X74R are rechambered/rebored .350s and .360s and aren't good for investment on this side of the pond.

Factory ammunition is available for all of these from Kynoch, but isn't cheap. Brass for the .375 is available from Bertram, but for some reason rifles in this caliber haven't done quite as well in the market as the others. The two .350s and the .400/.360 Purdey are superb. All three use the same case (I use 9.3X74R brass) which is readily available, and bullets are .358" and 9.3mm, which are readily available. These three calibers are a snap to reload economically. I've used the .360 extensively for deer, boar, black bear and elk and love it. A nice rifle in the .375 shouldn't be a problem within your price limit, but the others will be a push.

I would second what 400 has said. One of my former rifles, a William Evans 400/360, is for sale at Cabelas. It's a very nice rifle that could be had for close to your price range.

http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas...sp?hierarchyId=10473

This rifle is extremely accurate and I have some correct brass available as well as the load information if someone would like.

I've shot 3 hogs with this gun and all 3 dropped in their tracks. I ended up with 2 doubles in this caliber or this one would have never left my safe.

There's no comparison between a "new" rifle and a quality, good condition vintage British rifle.

If you are looking for an investment in a medium bore, a vintage British double is the only place to look.

I found a Gibbs 400/360 that may fill the bill. At the risk of introducing a different topic here, I would like know of a source of brass. It has a .367 bore, so I'm hoping I can use my large stash of 9.3mm (.366) bullets. I have read horror stories as well as happy endings about load development for doubles, so the future might be interesting....

quote:

Originally posted by Vol717:
At the risk of introducing a different topic here, I would like know of a source of brass. It has a .367 bore, so I'm hoping I can use my large stash of 9.3mm (.366) bullets.

The .400/.360 with a nominal bore diameter of .367" is the Purdey version. It was indeed loaded with .367" diameter bullets. SLUG THE BORES. My .400/.360 Purdey is .3635". Two friends also have .400/.360 Purdeys, .364" and .365". The point is, groove diameters in these British doubles can vary, and you need to know what you actually have. Whatever it is, no problem. I size down off the rack .366" bullets to .363" in a Corbin die, and it isn't a pain at all. I used off the rack .366" for years before I started doing that. Your stash of 9.3 bullets should work just fine, as long as they're the right weight, and not monos.

The various .400/.360s I've loaded for seem forgiving about bullet weight. It will have been regulated for 300 grain over 40 grains Cordite. Everything from 270 grain to 300 grain has worked well for me, and there's a wide selection.

With regard to brass, DON'T buy Bertram. I have some that will not work. Horneber makes good quality properly headstamped .400/.360 brass. I have some, but don't use it much. Forming .400/.360, .400/.350, and .350 No. 2 from easily available 9.3X74R is too easy to resist. No forming dies needed. Just run the 9.3 case into a standard .400/.360 FL sizing die, and trim from 2.94" to 2.74" and you're ready to go. One friend's rifle (the one at Cabela's above) has tight chamber necks, and wants neck turning with brass formed from 9.3, but I've not encountered another rifle that needed this.

Don't skip an important step when buying a used double rifle. Make the deal contingent on a pre-purchase inspection by a fully qualified gunmaker experienced in double rifles. I use J. J. Perodeau in Enid, OK at (580)237-7388. He'll give you the bottom line, warts and all, no matter who the seller is.

I'm too old to get used to being without my .400/.360. It keeps my freezers full.

quote:

Originally posted by 400 Nitro Express:
Heym 88B Safari in .470 sold for $12,500. On the used market today, this rifle in excellent condition would bring $15 to 16K. At that time, you could have bought TWO nice boxlock British rifles instead - for an investment of 20% less than the cost of the one Heym - and they'd be worth $40K+ today.

The above quote by 400 is very true for that time period, except that the Heym 88B sold in 1989 for $7K, not $12.5K. However, you will never see that type of gain again! Any investment grade Britt rifle you buy today will cost you a pot full of money, and will be hard to find! Most of the investment grade Britt rifles are in collections today, and are rarely for sale. The supply of the between the wars , and earlier Britt rifles are becomeing scarce. The one that are on the market require some real inspection to avoid pigs under silk skirts!

On the other hand any of the new rifles of today will increase in value over time, just not as much as the Britts that were bought cheap back 20 yrs ago.

There are certain models of the new rifles that have increased in price considerably. One is the model 140E Merkel chambered for 9.3X74R! This rifle sold new in 2001 for $4600 US, in a fitted case. It is no longer imported into the states, since the mod 141 came out. If you find one of the 140Es used but in new shape, it will set you back close to $8K. I have a 140E 9.3X74R and $8K wouldn't get mine for sure, nor would $10K. Merkel still makes the 140 but for the Euro market, but you might get someone to import one, but hold your hat because it will likely set you back over $10K. You can buy the Merkel Safari big bores for around $8K -$10K, but not the 140E!

Any thing you get in a chambering that is easy to get ammo for, and is perfect for North American game will gain in value, but not greatly! Personally I would buy a New Heym chambered for 450/400NE 3", enjoy it, shoot it, and I doubt you will ever sell it anyway. It is a nice chambering for North America, but will handle anything you want to hunt in Africa as well. They are well made, and will outlast you and your grandchilderen, with proper care.

400 NITRO EXPRESS has two double rifles that have increased in value greatly in the time he has owned them, and they are true investment grade rifles! Ask him if will ever sell them! I have been trying to buy his 400/360 for years, and he just smiles and rolls his eyes! This has become the fate of most collector grade double rifles. So just buy something you want to shoot, and hunt with, and you will not loose money, you just will not make a ton of profit!

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:

quote:

Originally posted by 400 Nitro Express:
Heym 88B Safari in .470 sold for $12,500. On the used market today, this rifle in excellent condition would bring $15 to 16K. At that time, you could have bought TWO nice boxlock British rifles instead - for an investment of 20% less than the cost of the one Heym - and they'd be worth $40K+ today.

The above quote by 400 is very true for that time period, except that the Heym 88B sold in 1989 for $7K, not $12.5K. However, you will never see that type of gain again! Any investment grade Britt rifle you buy today will cost you a pot full of money, and will be hard to find! Most of the investment grade Britt rifles are in collections today, and are rarely for sale. The supply of the between the wars , and earlier Britt rifles are becomeing scarce. The one that are on the market require some real inspection to avoid pigs under silk skirts!

If anything your points agree with 400 Nitro Express and lead one to believe that prices of rare high quality Brit rifles will continue to go up at a good rate since they are rare items with lots of guys chasing them and vitually no supply.

Things that would cause Brit double rifles to come down would be, the economy, increased difficulty in bringing rifles overseas to hunt, aging owners looking to cut back in retirement, continued increase in the cost of DG hunting, etc.

Besides the economy I think the possible restriction on overseas firearm travel would be the biggest items to hurt DG prices.

Can you imagine how many double rifles, especially the newer ones, would hit the market if you could no longer take your rifle to Africa? Same thing for bolt actions over 375.

How about a new Chapuis UGEX 9.3x74R, ejectors, cheekpiece, AAA circasian walnut, new for under $5,000.? Beautiful little rifle, a pleasure to look at and to shoot. Will it appreciate in value? Too many variables to determine that. Exchange rate, inflation rate in USA and Europe. Double rifle buyers from 5 years ago are well ahead on their investment but that is hindsight. Maybe in 5 years it will be illigal to even sell or even own a firearm.

quote:

Originally posted by Charles Prince:
How about a new Chapuis UGEX 9.3x74R, ejectors, cheekpiece, AAA circasian walnut, new for under $5,000.? Beautiful little rifle, a pleasure to look at and to shoot. Will it appreciate in value? Too many variables to determine that. Exchange rate, inflation rate in USA and Europe. Double rifle buyers from 5 years ago are well ahead on their investment but that is hindsight. Maybe in 5 years it will be illigal to even sell or even own a firearm.

Though the Chapuis rifles are nicely finished, they have never held the resale value as well as other brands!

For some time now, many buyers have been experiencing some problems with Chapuis doubles, mostly with them going off regulation, for some reason. I have talked to several people who have had problems, and asked what the factory said was the problem, but none were given reasons.

I don't know the answer to the down the road appreciation in value on any of the new doubles, but the cheaper you buy them new retail, the less they will appreciate down the road percentage wise. If the brand has any bad press, then they may drop out of sight.

It is true that the Britts will continue to rise in price for the forseeable future, but the percentage of gain will decrease, because of the high price paid to begine with. The days of the Britt double rifle appreciateing 200% are gone. That was because there was a flood of panic selling to avoid a confiscation time limit, glutting the market. No such thing looms in the offing today!