OK guys – don’t crucify me please, I am just drooling.

We all know that using 9,3 in thick stuff after wounded ele or buff would be a bad choice, but lets just say it is the only thing you have at hand at the moment. So when shit hits the fan aka charge happens – how about not pulling two separated shots, but double that pea shooter on purpose at point blank putting two 300 gr 1-3 inches apart at the same moment?

This was a tactic that the Late great Sten Cedergren often used with his big double rifles on the Elephant of the thick Palm forest which fringe the rivers of east Kenya.

I think it was Bell that said one in the right place will do, and two in the wrong place won't do.

Obviously, it would be no big deal recoil wise, so you should go try it and report back. I would be interested in how far apart they hit the target at say 10 feet.

I would guess that one would have to jank the two triggers quite aggressively to make sure both go off semi-simultaneously.

Since my double only has a single trigger, I am exempt from the tests.

My contention is that you had better practice that technique thoroughly as I am doubtful that when under attack many would actually have the presence of mind to pull it off, so to speak!

And after all the hoopla about the irreproacable benefits of double rilfes, such as the quick second shot, which is appropriate to this topic, why bother shooting both cartridges simulatneously?

hum - with all cards down - a "swan's song" in duet sounds more courageous - JAL I was thinking of a well aimed (probably) shot, not a spray and pray typo (tho it may be just that after all) .

Pulling both triggers simultaneously would be the tricky part no doubt - how about with set first trigger - is it possible if one would set the first one on and only pull the second trigger - hoped for a doubling to occure? - sounds sh@ty but I think I might be able to pull it off .

quote:

Originally posted by mouse93:
OK guys – don’t crucify me please, I am just drooling.

We all know that using 9,3 in thick stuff after wounded ele or buff would be a bad choice, but lets just say it is the only thing you have at hand at the moment. So when shit hits the fan aka charge happens – how about not pulling two separated shots, but double that pea shooter on purpose at point blank putting two 300 gr 1-3 inches apart at the same moment?

Mouse93,to answer your question, I suggest you fire both barrels simultaneously on a paper target, at 10 yds, aiming very carefully. I think you will answer your own question quite nicely, and I think, as well, you will quite surprised, at answer you get!

Mac I was thinking more of a distance as Will proposed ~ 10 feet or so. I guess the difference at 10 yds would be closer to 1 foot than couple of inches?

mouse
I would not recommend it. You will be much better off giving your self 2 chances at making a good shot.

Also it would be next to impossible to consistantly pull both triggers at the same time.

Bell wired the two triggers of his 400 together to try what you suggest.

That just shows me that Bell either didnot understand anything about doubles, and/or wished he had a bigger gun for wounded elephants, and or he was really afraid of them up close, which is why he shot them from a distance on a ladder.

Two shots in the wrong place will not be any better than one.

Then what pray tell is the point of having two triggers?

quote:

Originally posted by mouse93:
Mac I was thinking more of a distance as Will proposed ~ 10 feet or so. I guess the difference at 10 yds would be closer to 1 foot than couple of inches?

Then try it at 10 feet!

How will the rifle hold up if this is done very often ? Wouldn't it cause the rifle to go "off face" rather quickly, or maybe even damage the solder between the barrels ?

OK - so not such a good idea when/where there is a room and space for two separate shots, but with absence of those two and fat lady allready sings I guess I would try to pull it off.

BTW - could we compare terminal balistics between such a doubling (just in theory) of 9,3 cal with a single shot from one of 450's (energy, KD effect...)?

I think Bob Brister tried this with a side-by-side shotgun. I don't recall the details about distance etc but as I recall he had to shoot at the side of an old, abandoned barn to find both patterns....... one was always quite a bit higher than the other and they were more than a few feet apart horizontally.

As a side issue, I bought a used Win Model 21 quite a few years back and due to the previous owner trying to "adjust" the triggers it doubled on me one day .... recoil was significant. I took it to a good gunsmith who fixed the problem but after about 2o shots it doubled again. I sold it to a friend who knew about it's doubling but was convinced he could fix the problem --- he got a great deal as I never wanted to shoot the damn thing again.

I remember when I was a kid of 10 years or so, when my father pulled a shot at hare with 16ga (CZ combo - O/U - 7x57R/16) the rifle doubled on him - poor hare got a full share of pellets and bullet - spot on from a distance of 30 m.

However I have abandoned any thought of doing any air-raid drill with doubling on purpose at the range - gives me creeps.

Oh, come on. It ain't going to kill you or anything.

I had a cheap Spanish 10 ga. I used for geese that used to double on me. I'm still alive.

I believe you are morally commited to do it, as you brought it up!

Yay now I know what 7P's rule is about - argh Will you rascal - would gettin rid of one trigger spare me from blasphemous deed (i.e. can I chicken out)?

quote:

Originally posted by mouse93:
Yay now I know what 7P's rule is about - argh Will you rascal - would gettin rid of one trigger spare me from blasphemous deed (i.e. can I chicken out)?

A single trigger shooter is actually considered to have a disability. We call them the politically correct term "trigger impaired". No one knows what causes it; whether genetic or some abnormality that is devevloped by lethal doses of gamma radiation or living in a flatland all your life surrounded by corn stalks.

Those that prefer single triggers share some common characteristics - they drool a lot; they rode the short yellow bus to school as children; their family trees do not fork; and, they exhibit an extreme tendency toward uncontrollable flatulance. Thus, a single trigger was developed so as not to confuse those with such limited faculties. It is a way for the less fortunate among us to enjoy double rifles.

OK - so no tactical retreats - huh guys you don't helpin me much.

So before my stupidity evolves, I tried to do some "pre-research" and armed myself with some theory. I recalled the only video recorded doubling (that I know) from 470 mbogo site and tried to put some math on it. With rough measurements it turned out that barrel angle difference between shots is ~ 6,5 deg or ~ 12 % - that would be 1,2 foot rise for a 2 nd hit on a 10 feet distance (I got your point Mac ). So havin in mind it was much heavier recoiling rifle and doubling time frame was quite apart on the footage, I think milder recoiling 9,3 with some improved timing should done better. Tho IMO if those holes wouldn't appear (at worst) 3 inches apart it is pointless anyway. I guess there is only one way to find out?

Any opinion on how much of abuse for a Merkel 140 would that mean?

quote:

Originally posted by mouse93:
OK - so no tactical retreats - huh guys you don't helpin me much.

So before my stupidity evolves, I tried to do some "pre-research" and armed myself with some theory. I recalled the only video recorded doubling (that I know) from 470 mbogo site and tried to put some math on it. With rough measurements it turned out that barrel angle difference between shots is ~ 6,5 deg or ~ 12 % - that would be 1,2 foot rise for a 2 nd hit on a 10 feet distance (I got your point Mac ). So havin in mind it was much heavier recoiling rifle and doubling time frame was quite apart on the footage, I think milder recoiling 9,3 with some improved timing should done better. Tho IMO if those holes wouldn't appear (at worst) 3 inches apart it is pointless anyway. I guess there is only one way to find out?

Any opinion on how much of abuse for a Merkel 140 would that mean?

Now you are trying to confuse things with some kind of new math mumbo jumbo! Just shoot the damn thing. Just before, though, hang a tag on the trigger guard to have it forwarded to me at the address below in case you do die.

For all the big talk from the roach boot wearing, oil slurping, 2-wheel drive truck driving, self-proclaimed DR elitist DT crowd, I haven't seen any willing to stand in your stead.


I remain, sucking and drooling on a corn cob, while on the crapper,

Will

quote:

Originally posted by Will:Just shoot the damn thing. Just before, though, hang a tag on the trigger guard to have it forwarded to me at the address below in case you do die.
Will

Thanks, just what I need to know - will do - damn thing should be at my doorstep at the end of next week - will let you know how it went or postman will deliver some iron ware to you. In that case please inform the comunity .

I survived sorry Will - doubled on purpose (front trigger set - puling the second) - no toticable delay between shots just one big "ka-boom" - with my left (I am lefty) middle finger swollen and a sore cheek - distance 3m ~ 10 feet - black circle dia is 3 inches:

well mouse

that is not that bad, it might work after all. now we need you to go and get a 577ne and do the same.

peter

Shot my .500 NE yesterday. I might be crazy, but even though I am crazy, I have no desire for both barrels on that rifle to go off at the same time. I am thinking one bad headache.

quote:

Originally posted by mouse93:
OK - so no tactical retreats - huh guys you don't helpin me much.

So before my stupidity evolves, I tried to do some "pre-research" and armed myself with some theory. I recalled the only video recorded doubling (that I know) from 470 mbogo site and tried to put some math on it. With rough measurements it turned out that barrel angle difference between shots is ~ 6,5 deg or ~ 12 % - that would be 1,2 foot rise for a 2 nd hit on a 10 feet distance (I got your point Mac ). So havin in mind it was much heavier recoiling rifle and doubling time frame was quite apart on the footage, I think milder recoiling 9,3 with some improved timing should done better. Tho IMO if those holes wouldn't appear (at worst) 3 inches apart it is pointless anyway. I guess there is only one way to find out?

Any opinion on how much of abuse for a Merkel 140 would that mean?

Now Mouse93 you are getting close to the facts!

If you take the barrels off your Merkel, and place them in a vice with the sights pointed on a bulls eye on a target at 10 feet, or ten yards, then take two empties with the primers kicked out of them, and chamber one in each barrel. Look through the primer holes of each barrel, and see where the line of sight through the barrel points to on the target. Get some one to stand at the target with a pointer, and dirrect him to the spot where each barrel points, them mark the target with a pen.

What you will see is, The LEFT barrel will point to a spot on the target that is LOW, and on the RIGHT of POA. The RIGHT barrel will be pointing to a spot that is LOW, and on the LEFT of POA. The way the bullets het the POA, is because when the rifle fires, the right barrel the rifle recoils UP, and to the LEFT making the muzzle in line with where the sights WERE when the trigger was pulled. When the LEFT barrel is fired it recoils UP and to the RIGHT, making it point to where the sights were pointing when the trigger was pulled.

NOW! I you pull both triggers the recoil only pusheds BACK, and UP, leaving each barrel to be shooting crossed without benefit of the flip to it's opposite side to regulate. On the target, the barrels of the 9.3X74R are usually pointing 4 or 5 inces low, and 4 or 5 inches left and right of center. this means on the target the two shots will be close to 10 inches apart,and much higher than if only one were fired, that is if you can actually pull both triggers similtaniously. This could actually mean the shots could be 10" apart, and as much as 10" higher than where sighted. NOW you rifle is empty, and you missed the brain, and he is now 5 feet from you rather than 10 feet!

If either trigger laggs, then one may hit the target, and the other will go over his head into space. Either way, your now empty, and in trouble.

My advice is shoot for the brain with the first barrel, and if he doesn't go down, shoot him with the other barrel. I think you chances of survival will increase by about 200 %!

quote:

Originally posted by mouse93:
I survived sorry Will - doubled on purpose (front trigger set - puling the second) - no toticable delay between shots just one big "ka-boom" - with my left (I am lefty) middle finger swollen and a sore cheek - distance 3m ~ 10 feet - black circle dia is 3 inches:

If your rifle will do this every time, then at 10 feet it may do what you want,but I still think you are far better off just learning to shoot it properly, and shoot twice! Plus this is hard on your rifle!

Mouse93,

Thanks for the "experiment" and the photos....

Two aimed shots probably better, but nice to know what your rifle is capable of.

quote:

Originally posted by peterdk:
well mouse

...now we need you to go and get a 577ne and do the same.

peter

Erm - no thanks - but perhaps you may give it a try

Mac - thanks - no doubt in praxis two separate aimed shots would do better and I have no further intentions on any deliberate doubling to come.

This stuff is hypothetical at best - tho some numerical presumptions are kicking in. Do you guys think that with "simultaneous" hits like above - numbers can offer a theoretical sum i.e.,

- if we have a (285gr bullets in both barrels. capable of 2362 fps creating 3.500 ft-lb each)

- x2 - that would be 570gr coming at 2362fps creating 7.000 ft-lb - impressive at least on paper ?

hell no

i just got the first shots off with my alex henry 20/577, we used a test load of 7 drams of black powder and a 650 grains woodleigh.
on that day the bullets went at 1800 fps +,- 12fps.
to me that was a handfull and to letting go of both barrels at once, scares the shit out of me.

but thanks for the experiment though.

peter

quote:

Originally posted by mouse93:
This stuff is hypothetical at best - tho some numerical presumptions are kicking in. Do you guys think that with "simultaneous" hits like above - numbers can offer a theoretical sum i.e.,

- if we have a (285gr bullets in both barrels. capable of 2362 fps creating 3.500 ft-lb each)

- x2 - that would be 570gr coming at 2362fps creating 7.000 ft-lb - impressive at least on paper ?

Certainly you can apply numbers to anything, as you have shown above, but whether the numbers would be correct in application, is another matter!

Im not a high level mathematician, but double rifles seem to make their own rules, that seem all out of reason, as to how they place their bullets under different conditions. The combining of energies of several things with simple math to find the combined energy, is not a simple problem.

This is on the same order as those who say a shotgun with buckshot with nine of what ever weight they are combine to make the FPE equal to nine times what one pellet developes. One would naturally think this is the case, but it has been proven that it is not so. Or like saying that two bullets that are .500" (1/2")in dia, are equal, in frontal area of one bullet of .100 (1") diameter. This is also not true! To diminstrate this draw a 1" circle, then drw two 1/2" circles side by side inside the 1" circle, and you will find there is a lot more area in the 1" circle besides what the two 1/2" circles cover!

We have some real engineers on this web-site, so maybe some of them can shed light on this, but it is above me!

I give up what is the point? I see no earthly reason to ever pull both triggers at the same time.

465H&H

465H&H - just killing time - playing with theoretical possibiltity of geting some HP out of tiny 9,3 when things go southern then south

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by mouse93:

NOW! I you pull both triggers the recoil only pusheds BACK, and UP, leaving each barrel to be shooting crossed without benefit of the flip to it's opposite side to regulate.

So the two bullets come screaming out the barrel but in fact meet up a little down range at the crosspoint, nuzzling each other straight onward toward the target. Heck, they might just make one ragged hole at point of aim!

quote:

Originally posted by Wink:

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by mouse93:

NOW! I you pull both triggers the recoil only pusheds BACK, and UP, leaving each barrel to be shooting crossed without benefit of the flip to it's opposite side to regulate.

So the two bullets come screaming out the barrel but in fact meet up a little down range at the crosspoint, nuzzling each other straight onward toward the target. Heck, they might just make one ragged hole at point of aim!

Good one Wink!

I have some experience in hunting when doubles have doubled, tho it wasnot on purpose.

Once I shot at a pig with my 450 No2, at about 35 yards.

I was sitting in some trees/brush and the pig was at my extreme left. I had to place the butt stock on my arm not my shoulder as I could not turn properly toward the pig. At the shot the gun went Boom/Boom, which happens when your trigger finger "slaps" the rear trigger in recoil.

The first round hit the pig, the second did not.


Another time was with my new Sauer 12x12x30-06 drilling. I was turkey hunting and had several gobblers about 30 yards from me.

Being "crafty" I waited untill 2 heads were close together and let fly with the left 12ga bbl.

The gun went BOOOMM.
Both bbls firing at the same time, an internal "double".

When I came down out of recoil I looked at the turkeys and had 3 dead gobblers.


Luckily the area I hunt in has a limit of 4 birds.

I thought about keeping the gun that way
But I had it fixed.

quote:

Originally posted by N E 450 No2:

The gun went BOOOMM.
Both bbls firing at the same time, an internal "double"...But I had it fixed.

What was the cause of internal double?

When the left shotgun bbl was fired first the right sear would let go as well, no problem when shooting the right shotgun bbl first or when shooting the left shotgun bbl with the gun set on rifle. The right shotgun bbl sear did not have enough engagement.

quote:

Originally posted by N E 450 No2:
The gun went BOOOMM.
Both bbls firing at the same time, an internal "double".

When I came down out of recoil I looked at the turkeys and had 3 dead gobblers.

Tony - I think you've re-coined a phrase: "kill three birds with one double"

First I would like to go on record saying that I don't belive there would ever be any realistic way you could shoot accuratly by purposly doubleing a double rifle.

Thanks for the experiment Mouse93 I know your thoughts here are just Hypetheticle but let me share an expireance I had several years ago.

A friend of mine was and I was hunting in Zimbabwe when he shot at a wart hog with his 9.3x74. The gun doubled on him and sounded like one single boom. I watched both the hog and my friend drop. Amazingly the pig had been hit by both bullets and only a few inches apart. the thing that is even more amazing is The same guy several years later had his .500 double on a buffalo and again that time both bullets hit this time over a foot apart but none the less both hit.
Neather of us belive this could be repeated intintionally but I thought it would be worth mentioning here.

N.E. 450#2 I'm sure your thinking this was Jonny and your right. Who else could repeat the impossible.

Akshooter

If anybody could do it twice it would be Jonny.

Later tests confirmed that the drilling doubled every time the left shotgun bbl was fired first.

WDM Bell experimented with doubling on purpose with his 450/400 by wiring the two triggers together.