I have seen a lot of references about the use of Hodgdon 4831 and H4831SC, but none about IMR-4831. I've got a bunch of IMR4831 and would like to try it in the 470 but have not been able to find data specific to it.

Ted...do you have "Any Shot You Want"...the Art Alphin book? I beleive it has IMR 4831 loads for the 470. PM me and the first of the week I'll give you some info...all of my material is at my office...that's where I reload!
It does pay to own the company.

Gary
DRSS
NRA Lifer
SCI
DSC

106 gr. of IMR-4831 behind a 500 gr. Woodleigh bullet ...... works for me.

quote:

Originally posted by Frank Beller:
106 gr. of IMR-4831 behind a 500 gr. Woodleigh bullet ...... works for me.

Dito the above!

106 grains of IMR 4831 with Norma brass, Woodleigh 500 gr. bullets and fed 215 primers for about 2150 fps.

105 grains if Bell brass is used. It is slightly thicker brass.

The loads provided so far are in the right range. Butch recommended a slightly heavier load for my old Field Grade rifle which was regulated to 2250 fps with the 500 gr Woodleigh, BeLL brass, and Fed 215s.

You might consider 85-89 gr of RL-15 with filler and FED 215s which while giving the same velocity (at the higher charge weights) generates less recoil.

Ted,

You don't say what .470 you have, new or older. In any case, fully endorse the use of IMR-4831. You won't need filler which is just another thing to forget because it gives good loading density. Start around 100 grs and slowly work up until you get best regulation (at 100 yards) or pressure signs.

Mike has clearly got a new .470 (Searcy) that will regulate at 2250 fps. The older ones are likely to regulate considerably below that. My 1904-made H&H 500/450 (480 grain .458 bullet) regulates best at about 2040, for example.

Regards, Tim

I'm loading 106gr IMR 4831 ove a 215 Federal with 500gr Woodleigh softs for an old BSS Searcy 470. I'm loading 103gr for the solids. These were suggested loads from Butch. He doesn't like H4831, but I'm not sure why.

Tim,

I have a new Krieghoff that was regulated with Federal ammo. I've been loading 500 gr. cast bullets of Lyman #2 alloy. I've tried some AA5744 for some reduced loads that shot well. Now I want to see if these bullets will do well at full power. I have some loaded with 85gr. of RL15 with 5 gr. filler to try out. I think I'll put together some with 100 gr. IMR 4831 to take along too. Hope to get to the range tomorrow.

Tell us what you think of the difference in recoil....I could definitely tell the diff between the RL 15 and the 4831 loads.

Gary
DRSS
NRA Lifer
SCI
DSC

Ted,

With a new Krieghoff you might start as high as 102 grs with the usual disclaimers of course!

Using the 2/3 rule for doubles you'll also likely find that a 350 gr bullet will also regulate but print a bit high with same charge of powder as for the 500 grain bullet. Cheaper for shooting duiker and whitetails with those, although you seem on track with cast bullets.

Regards, Tim

quote:

Originally posted by GarBy:
Tell us what you think of the difference in recoil....I could definitely tell the diff between the RL 15 and the 4831 loads.
DSC

Ditto's

In my William Evans I get great groups with 102grs of IMR 4831 at 2050 fps.

There is a difference in recoil between 4831 and R-15. The gun doesn't shoot R-15 well or I would use it.

I got to the range early this morning to beat the crowd. Shot the 470 with three different loads. The load with AA5744 was nothing to see, the RL15 wasn't much better, but the IMR-4831 shows real promise.

The bullet is my 500 gr. cast from Lyman #2 alloy, and shooting was done at 50 yards.

First load was 85 gr. of RL15 with 5 gr. dacron filler. 4 shots averaged 2084 fps, with an ES of 62 fps.



Next is 102 gr. of IMR-4831. 4 shots averaged 2081 fps with an ES of 110 fps, but with notably better accuracy.



This rifle seems to cross lighter loads. That was very evident with light loads of 5744. As I increased powder, they came together. It looks like I need to keep going up with the IMR-4831 and see if the left barrel will move over a couple or three inches.

As far as the recoil, there is a noticable difference. The loads with AA5744 and RL15 were stout, and kind of like a sharp punch. The load with the IMR-4831 was definately more of a big push. It rocked me back more, but not neccessarily any more uncomfortable than the other loads.

Once upon a long time ago I think Mac37 provided the following heuristics for double loading:


"Muzzle velocity too slow, barrel dwell time too long (left barrel shoots left and high, right barrel shoots right and high):

LL...........RR
...............
...............
...............
......POA......

Muzzle velocity too fast, barrel dwell time too short (left barrel shoots right and low, right barrel shoots left and low):

.......POA.......
.................
.................
.................
RR.............LL

Muzzle velocity just right, L and R converge on point of aim, the crossing point:

.....L...R....
......POA.....
.....R...L....

Well, that's a start!"

Most folks agreed that one would like a double NOT to cross at all and that Mac's last diagram may indicate the load is still just a little fast.

I'm a little surprised that you're getting crossing at less than 2100 fps.

All of my lighter loads with AA5744 from 1500 fps to 1750 fps were crossing with the slower ones much more so. The slower loads are also hitting lower. As velocity increases, the point of impact rises. Pretty much the exact opposite of what your saying.

Ted,

Must say that my experience is the same as Mike's: crossing barrels are too much velocity.

I'd argue to drop 1.5 grains of IMR 4831 and see what you get at 50. I'll bet you'll still be over 2,000 fps, too.

Depending on your pressure signs (notably flattened primers???) at the 102 grs, you might also try adding another half grain to see if your experience with lighter loads translates with IMR 4831 as you believe or whether the barrels cross even further.

Might also reexamine the RL-15 results and see if adding some powder tightens that group AND gives higher velocity, again keep checking for pressure signs.

You can judge whether to tap your back sight a tad to the left, it seems, once you are satisfied with best group at 100.

Regards, tim

TedH,

The heuristics posted earlier are true. Verified by many over a very long period of time.

Loading for a double is frankly rather different that any other loading I've ever done. It takes a while to get things together ... and to get the shooting mechanics consistent enough to be comfortable with what is going on.

We've all been where you are ... and thought exactly the same things.

My older Field Grade Searcy shoots well 500 gr cast slugs between 42 and 45 gr of AA 5744. Does the same with 500 gr woodleighs and 85-90 gr of RL-15, and 108 gr of IMR 4831.

My Chapuis 9,3x74R works fine with cast bullets and AA 5744 but will only regulate with Noslers and Woodleighs using IMR 4831. It will not cross with IMR 4831 ... but crosses with every RL-15 load I've tried.

Some rifles are much more forgiving than others.

quote:

Originally posted by Tim Carney:
Ted,

Must say that my experience is the same as Mike's: crossing barrels are too much velocity.

I'd argue to drop 1.5 grains of IMR 4831 and see what you get at 50. I'll bet you'll still be over 2,000 fps, too.

Depending on your pressure signs (notably flattened primers???) at the 102 grs, you might also try adding another half grain to see if your experience with lighter loads translates with IMR 4831 as you believe or whether the barrels cross even further.

Might also reexamine the RL-15 results and see if adding some powder tightens that group AND gives higher velocity, again keep checking for pressure signs.

You can judge whether to tap your back sight a tad to the left, it seems, once you are satisfied with best group at 100.

Regards, tim

Tim,

I loaded some more 470s last night and took them to the range this afternoon. I took your advice and loaded some lighter and some heavier than the 102 grain loads from the other day. You'll recall the 102 gr. load had the barrels crossing about 1.5" at 50 yds. Shot a group with 100 grains, and those shots crossed about 2.25". Went up a grain at a time after that. It took 104 grains to stop the crossing, at least at 50 yards. They are printing about 3/4" apart, left barrel on the left and right barrel on the right. I suspect at 100 yards they might still cross a bit.


So it would appear this particular rifle does not follow the convential wisdom with regard to regulating, rather just the opposite.

I do think I will try some more loads with RL-15, it didn't seem to want to cross as bad as the 4831 at the same velocity.

I've had similar results as Ted. If the velocity was too low they would cross, then come together as velocity increased, and then cross again as velocity went even higher.
This has happened in both my doubles.

quote:

Originally posted by TedH:

Tim,

I loaded some more 470s last night and took them to the range this afternoon. I took your advice and loaded some lighter and some heavier than the 102 grain loads from the other day. You'll recall the 102 gr. load had the barrels crossing about 1.5" at 50 yds. Shot a group with 100 grains, and those shots crossed about 2.25". Went up a grain at a time after that. It took 104 grains to stop the crossing, at least at 50 yards. They are printing about 3/4" apart, left barrel on the left and right barrel on the right. I suspect at 100 yards they might still cross a bit.


So it would appear this particular rifle does not follow the convential wisdom with regard to regulating, rather just the opposite.

I do think I will try some more loads with RL-15, it didn't seem to want to cross as bad as the 4831 at the same velocity.

Ted,

As Sherman Bell writes in The Double Gun Journal, nothing like finding out for myself.

You are all but there. At 50 yards my 500/450 would put the average of each barrel about half inch apart right to right and left to left; at 100 the average grew to one inch but was still not crossing. Now I'd check at 100 yards with your 104 grains, and bet that the rounds will be on top of each other. Expect you'd want to go up by half a grain if they are still slightly crossing. Or even drop a quarter of a grain if the 100 yard composite group is too big but not crossing. With my eyes, key to 100 yards is a six o'clock hold and consistent sight picture. Those redfield (?) target enable you to do that, or so it would appear.

Did you chronograph the ones you fired at 50? With another two grains, your velocity might have bumped 100 fps or so.

And did your composite group move to the left? Or is it still too far to the right of the bull. If so, try undoing whatever set screw holds the backsight and tapping it a tiny, tiny bit to the left. If that works to center your ultimate composite group, strike the front sight where it meets its holder with a sharp, thin, small screwdriver blade so you have a small line mark on both, and know where to return the sight to if the backsight gets bumped out of alignment.

Sorry to keep harping on it, but your lack of comment must mean that no pressure signs have appeared so far!

Again, while I've never used it, RL-15 might prove to be right powder for your rifle.

Regards, Tim

Tim,

You're correct, there have been no signs of excess pressure so far. In fact those 102 gr. loads seem quite mild as the primers were not flattened at all and the outside of the case necks are slightly sooted. The 104 gr. load primers were flattened slightly, about like one would expect with normal loads. The necks were still a bit sooted though. Remember I'm shooting cast bullets, so the pressure will be less than the same load with a jacketed bullet.

I didn't set up the chrony this last trip as I was short on time. But I'd bet the 104 gr. load was running 2150-2200 fps.

The 104 gr. load is right on the money, centered in the bull. The last group I shot were strung vertically a bit, but I'm pretty sure that was my fault. I've fired this thing 40 times over the last few days and I'm getting sore and prolly a little punchy on the triggers.

I'm going to take a few days off and get one of those PAST recoil pads for the next trip to the range. I think the 104 gr. 4831 loads may be just right, but I'll try some loaded slightly higher as well as a couple more RL-15 loads.

Most English .470s will regulate at 106 grs. of IMR-4831, for about 2150 FPS that is always where I start, I may have to go up or back a grain..

Most Searcy reg at 108 grs. of IMR-4831 for 2245 FPS..I think Butch went down to 106 grs. with his latest rifles because of recoil complaints. Not a bad idea on his part.

IMR-4831 and RL-15 are the only powders I use in double rifles.

quote:

Originally posted by mstarling:
Once upon a long time ago I think Mac37 provided the following heuristics for double loading:


"Muzzle velocity too slow, barrel dwell time too long (left barrel shoots left and high, right barrel shoots right and high):

LL...........RR
...............
...............
...............
......POA......

Muzzle velocity too fast, barrel dwell time too short (left barrel shoots right and low, right barrel shoots left and low):

.......POA.......
.................
.................
.................
RR.............LL

Muzzle velocity just right, L and R converge on point of aim, the crossing point:

.....L...R....
......POA.....
.....R...L....

Well, that's a start!"

Most folks agreed that one would like a double NOT to cross at all and that Mac's last diagram may indicate the load is still just a little fast.

I'm a little surprised that you're getting crossing at less than 2100 fps.

MacD37 would never say crossing was "just right."
That looks like a quote of Rip, just as surely as William Ayers is Obama's ghostwriter for Dreams From My Father.

Let X = POA
Therefore:

............
LLXRR
............

Is the theoretical/imaginary ideal of parallel to infinity.

The quoted diagram does represent the method of adjusting load velocity to find the regulation load.

H4831 has less velocity variation with temperature than IMR-4831.
George Hoffman recommended H4831.
You will need a few grains more of H4831 than IMR-4831.

If you use the "long cut" instead of the SC, it fills the case better.

RL-15 with Dacron filler or H4831 with no filler.
Those are without doubt the best 470 NE powders, except that
Varget Extreme with Dacron filler might be better than RL-15, for the same reasons H4831 is better than IMR-4831.

You cannot go wrong by switching from RL-15 to Varget, or from IMR-4831 to H4831.

BTW, the imaginary "Parallel-to-Infinity" group would be better represented like this:

LXR

All bullets from each barrel will have to stay in one hole, Left hole and Right hole.

Your only hope for approximating this is to use either Varget Extreme or H4831 Extreme.

I load 105 grs of IMR 4831 in the .470 NE. Federal 215 primers, Jameson brass and 500 gr Woodleigh SP, chronograph in my 26 inch Vaughan at 2025 fps, and regulates well. I drop to 103 grains with the Woodleigh 500 gr solid and have the same POI. I always use Kynamco wads with these loads. I have approx ¼ inch space between the powder and the base of the Woodleigh SP when seated to the crimp grove, based on my research this is asking for trouble with out a filler.

I have just starting loading for my Jeffery .475 No2. Bertram brass, Federal 215 primers, 500 Gr Woodleigh SP and IMR 4831 powder. A load of 109 Gr shows great promise, chronographs at 2025 fps, again I am using foam wads due to the even larger air space.

My reason for using wads is based on the conclusion I came to after reading page 63, of Shooting the British Double Rifle†I quote: “David Little of Kynamco mentioned that their powder manufacture recommended no more than 3 mm (1/8th) of airspace in a case.â€

Maybe the wad in the .470 is not required, but I feel it is better safe than sorry, this load is one grain less than what I was loading before adding a wad and is more consistent with the wad. Certainly the larger .475 No 2 case requires the wad, in fact at 109 grs the wad only just fills the air space. I believe the wad needs to completely fill the air space or ringing of the barrels may occur.

John

John I agree.

Whether I am using poly or foam I always make sure the filler is compressed between the bullet and the powder.

Cup Points from North Fork, or North Fork FP solids, or GSC FN solids, are all driving banded, monometal copper, and cause low stress on the double rifle barrel.

These bullets can be loaded with H4831 in a 470 NE to fill the case, no filler required, no air space, no powder shake.

Another reason for the superiority of H4831 in the 470 NE.

No filler needed.
Least temperature/velocity variation.
best hope for parallel to infinity.

However, I am very happy to put 2 rights and 2 lefts into one hole at 50 meters. Even though crossed, at 100 meters, the right and left groups are still only as far apart as the the two bores at the muzzle.

At every point between 0 and 100 meters, this is more accurate than any merely "parallel-to-infinity" regulation job.