Anyone have any chronograph data for factory ammo?

Curious as to what factory 400 gr. ammo might be giving in fps for different length barrels.

Anyone?

Will,

450-400? Are you feeling OK? Thinking about a PG hunt?

If you send me some factory 450-400 3 1/4 I will chrono it for you, free of charge.

quote:

Originally posted by Mike70560:
Will,

450-400? Are you feeling OK? Thinking about a PG hunt?

If you send me some factory 450-400 3 1/4 I will chrono it for you, free of charge.

Squirrels, and maybe rabbits, iffin they ain't too big.

I may send you some. I'll have to see what factory stuff is lying around.

Will,
Just last Sunday I went out to the range to test two 450-400-3" and a 450 3 1/4". As I pulled up a friend of mine was there chronographing his Westley 450-400-3" and his Francotte 450 3 1/4".
The testing of the Westley(Pre-war) and one of my new rifles was to say the least dramatic. With factory Hornady the Westley was a dismal 1800 fps. And in the new barrels on my rifles we got 2134. The point is that the bores of the Westley were oversize or just very worn. Both rifles had 26" barrels.
Oh by the way the 450 out of both my rifle and the Francotte were right at 2140 plus or minus 5 fps.

Butch,

That must have been a hot day in the desert!

Were your chrono results for the 450/400 3" for Hornady factory ammo or handloads?

And the same for the .450, factory or handloads?

I think the Hornady factory stuff is 0.410". Is that the dimension of your barrels?

I think Hornady claims 2050 fps in a 24" barrel, so your 2135 fps in 26" barrels would be sort of close if using Hornady factory ammo. Or just a hot day?

Thanks.

Will,
Temp. was around 75 degrees. The results I gave were with factory Hornady ammo. And yes My barrels are .410" to .4105".
I've found that a couple of extra inches will give 2100 plus (26").

Butch,

Seems some of the factory stuff is pretty low in velocity. I'm just trying to make sense of it.

Thanks for your help.

I wonder if the Westley would have performed better with handloads and a softer Hawk bullet?

My friend and I tested our handloads also with the same result. I believe the cure for the Westley is a proper size bullet for the barrels.

quote:

Originally posted by Butch Searcy:
My friend and I tested our handloads also with the same result. I believe the cure for the Westley is a proper size bullet for the barrels.

Exactly an undersized bullet will does not generate enough pressure to get up to velocity

That's what made me think of the Hawk bullet. It might obturate somewhat better and generate a bit higher pressure/velocity. I think it's worth a try anyway. What do you think?

Of course, you could just buy a .500/.416, the best double rifle caliber, and be done with all this silliness.

wasn't 2150 fps the original intention with the 45--400 just like with the 404 Jeffery?

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Bush:
That's what made me think of the Hawk bullet. It might obturate somewhat better and generate a bit higher pressure/velocity.

Or just ask Hawk to make them to the correct diameter needed as it should be. It'll take a 2 box order as the minimum though.

Butch

What is the bore diameter of the Westley Richards ?


Is it a very oversize bore ?

.

quote:

Originally posted by jsl3170:
wasn't 2150 fps the original intention with the 45--400 just like with the 404 Jeffery?

Nope, 2125 fps but that was out of a 30 inch barrel. It would have regulated around 2000 fps much like the original .470. I'd wager that ammo running 2150 fps will probably not regulate in a vintage gun. Try the Hawks. They are soft and that's what you need in a vintage gun.

Re: 450/400 NE 3 inch factory Hornady ammo.
Listed factory speed is 2050, I have a K-Gun with 24 inch bbls. Chrono speed on various lots has run from 2030 to 2044. I called the Ballistics Dept at Hornady. they maintain test
results for every lot of ammo they make with the loading data. You can call them and they will help. My lots DGS and DGX came back loaded with 80 gr H4831SC, Fed 215 for speeds of 2044 and 2040. Very close to my results. Old data for this cartridge lists a speed of 2125 fps. from a 26 or 28 inch barrel
depending on where you look (Cartridges of the World, etc.) K-Guns supposed to be regulated with Hornady Factory ammo. Mine crossed at
50yds. Started using RL-15 based on the old Cordite load times 1.19, found a load, much less felt recoil, no filler needed on this case, now regulating just fine a 2125-2140 fps
with Woodleighs. Good shooting.
Tetonka

tetonka,

Excellent info.

Remind me where the 1.19 number comes from. Wright?

Thanks.

Will:

That number comes from an article by Ross Seyfried that appeared in the December 1999 issue of Handloader. He suggests it is a good idea to begin two grains below the calculated charge just to be safe. In most instances a filler of some kind is required.

I also have a copy of an article by Al Miller that appeared in BIG BORE Rifles and Cartridges that sets forth the formula for calculating the conversion of cordite to IMR 4831 (Cordite load X 1.333 = IMR 4831 load).

I can get you a copies of the articles if you want.

If you do the calculations, you will note that the .470 only calls for around 100 grains of IMR 4831 which is where my .470 regulates (2000-2050 fps). However, most modern guns are regulated with 105 + grains of IMR 4831 which translates into 2150 fps from a 24 inch barrel. I never did understand why anyone felt it was necessary to punch the .470 up to that velocity. It's just makes for a lot more recoil.

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Bush:
Will:

That number comes from an article by Ross Seyfried that appeared in the December 1999 issue of Handloader. He suggests it is a good idea to begin two grains below the calculated charge just to be safe. In most instances a filler of some kind is required.

I also have a copy of an article by Al Miller that appeared in BIG BORE Rifles and Cartridges that sets forth the formula for calculating the conversion of cordite to IMR 4831 (Cordite load X 1.333 = IMR 4831 load).

I can get you a copies of the articles if you want.

If you do the calculations, you will note that the .470 only calls for around 100 grains of IMR 4831 which is where my .470 regulates (2000-2050 fps). However, most modern guns are regulated with 105 + grains of IMR 4831 which translates into 2150 fps from a 24 inch barrel. I never did understand why anyone felt it was necessary to punch the .470 up to that velocity. It's just makes for a lot more recoil.

Dave,

There is a decided gain in penetration on elephant heads when you add that 100 fps. At 2,050 penetration may be marginal at 2,150 fps for the big nitro expresses it makes all the difference in the world. IMHO it is the most important 100 fps in rifledom.

465H&H

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Bush:
Will:

That number comes from an article by Ross Seyfried that appeared in the December 1999 issue of Handloader. He suggests it is a good idea to begin two grains below the calculated charge just to be safe. In most instances a filler of some kind is required.

I also have a copy of an article by Al Miller that appeared in BIG BORE Rifles and Cartridges that sets forth the formula for calculating the conversion of cordite to IMR 4831 (Cordite load X 1.333 = IMR 4831 load).

I can get you a copies of the articles if you want.

If you do the calculations, you will note that the .470 only calls for around 100 grains of IMR 4831 which is where my .470 regulates (2000-2050 fps). However, most modern guns are regulated with 105 + grains of IMR 4831 which translates into 2150 fps from a 24 inch barrel. I never did understand why anyone felt it was necessary to punch the .470 up to that velocity. It's just makes for a lot more recoil.

I soon I forget, eh? Yeah, copies would be great. Thanks.

Without getting off track, ya gotta have power, placement, and penetration.

To get penetration ya gotta have velocity. 465H&H is right. It's a fact of life.

I run my 470 at 2200 fps.

Don't get mad, though, before you send the copies!

quote:

Originally posted by Will:


To get penetration ya gotta have velocity.

Not if you shoot good bullets

I will get the copies off to you next week.

There are still some that feel lower velocity solids will penetrate deeper than higher velocity solids. I believe that is hogwash.

And Dave is right a well designed solid at 1900 will out-penetrate a poorly designed solid at 2150 all day long in the tests that I conducted.

Nobody get mad at me because I am agreeing with the three of you.

quote:

Started using RL-15 based on the old Cordite load times 1.19, found a load, much less felt recoil, no filler needed on this case, now regulating just fine a 2125-2140 fps
with Woodleighs. Good shooting.
Tetonka

tetonka,

Are you using the 60 grain Cordite load or the 55 grain tropical load as your base figure before applying the 1.19 multiplier and still not using a filler?

For Will, the 1.19 number came from the 3rd edition of Gramme Wrights book, I think page 88 or so.
For bigfats, I used the 60 grain Cordite as a starting point multiplied by 1.19 which is 71.40 and then backed down a bit to 70grains of
RL15. The 5 shot Chronograph results are an average of 2118 fps from K-Gun 24 inch bbl. with a standard deviation of 17. Shoots good and much less felt recoil than H4831SC. Several reasons for doing this include, less recoil, better speed with no loss of regulation, RL#15 not supposed to be temperature sensitive, and I read somewhere that the 450/400NE 3 inch case is the largest case that can get by with out a filler. I am happy with the results. By the way, I tried using the old fashioned CornMeal for a filler on a few loads. NO More, pressures went way up and cases stuck in the chambers.
Hope this helps some of you fellows, good shooting
Tetonka

I should have added "all other things being equal" 100 fps more velocity will substantially increase penetration in the big Nitro Express calibers. Good catch!

465H&H.

Will,

My Greener with 28" barrels, 69.0 of Reloader 15, 1/2" foam filler, Federal 215 primer and Bertram brass chronos at an average of 2161@ 6804' of elevation.

Handloads, not factory, but a bit of additional information on 28" barrels. I wish they were a bit shorter.

Will these are not factory loads. My rifle is 3 1/4" proofed for 60 grains of cordite.

60 times 1.19 equals 71.4 for RL 15

Distance to chrono was 32'.

Looks like the 1.19 formula works with this rifle and 26" barrels.



Hope this helps.

Once again I will be glad to forward the Ross Seyfried article "Reloading the Nitro Express" to anyone who would like to have it. Just drop me an email rkmojo@aol.com

More powder???????

More speed ??????

More penetration ??????

Deader Buffalo?????

I like it -------

Will might get back on his meds. Ha Ha.

Good hunting

I've been wanting to try RL15 in my K-450/400 and today I got the chance. Using the 1.19 multiplier versus 60 grain Cordite formula, I loaded 6 rounds (4 softs and 2 solids) 400 grain Hornady's over 70.0 grains RL15/WLRM all less filler. Velocity was an average 2124 for the softs and 2164 for the solids. Shooting from the sticks at 50 yards, accuracy was acceptable and when I was able to shoot my wobble, it was actually pretty good. Regulation was also good. However, and isn't there always a cavaet?....I did not notice the reduction in recoil I was led to expect. Actually, when I followed up these with my control load of the same bullets using 77.0 grains IMR4350 (2060 f/s) that load's recoil felt was lighter and shot to its customery dead on zero at 50 yards with ease.

I've stayed away from RL15 due to the fact I don't like using fillers. And I'm a bit dubious of reducing the load below 70 grains thereby increasing air space and the possible need for fllers. My gun seems to like velocities in the 2050 to 2070 range and IMR4350 can get there easily. At this level, regulation is nice, accuracy is very good and felt recoil is a non issue.

quote:

77.0 grains IMR4350 (2060 f/s) that load's recoil felt was lighter

It was also slower!