To The Group: (My Double Dilemma)

I just wanted to throw this question out and get some input from those that have been there and done that. I am a fan of shooting big bore rifles. Currently I own 2-375 H&H’s (Win 70 & Kimber BGR), 416RM, 416 Rigby RSM, 458Lott RSM, and a 500 Jeffery RSM ALL bolt action guns. I have always wanted a double rifle every since I started to think about going on an African safari (which will not happen at least for several years until my children get a little further along). Right now I have a lot of money tied up in many different guns (ie too many….) I tend to find $500-1000 and then impulse buy something I do not need. I have been seriously contemplating selling off several guns to fund the purchase of a double rifle. I could free up 4-5k with some effort and if I sold all of my excess guns I could get 10k put together with effort. I am not rich by any means so this would be my most expensive purchase by far. However, as I get older I am starting to value quality and nostalgia much more. I have plenty of money to reload ammo and unlike the story I recently read about a nice inherited 470 going into a sock I want to shoot my rifle. Here’s the question which I have divided into three basic ideas. 1st do I get a nice Ruger No1. In say 450-400 or 450 3.25” and start shooting it with the idea of getting some practice with a single shot in a double caliber (new action & reloading practice)? Or 2nd do I just take the plunge and get a 9.3mmx74 double and start enjoying the double world with idea to sell it once I choose to move up to a bigger safari caliber.( I am also temped by the Cabelas Sabatti doubles but they look a little under built?) 3rd Do I just sell off all of the guns I don’t absolutely love and spend the whole pile on a nice double ie 450-400, 450, or 470. I saw a B. Searcy 470 listed a while back for 9k which I would consider a dream gun. Or finally do I just pinch myself real hard and wake up go back to work and forget the whole thing? I have heard recommendations from the group to do one or all of the above in the past when reading others posts I just don’t want to buy too little or too much gun and then feel bad about it after the fact.


Thanks Brad

Brad, I don't know of anyone in your situation who went out and bought their first double rifle and the attachment to their bolt rifles did not diminish exponentially. I still have a M70 in 375 but I rarely use it. It's your call but I think your going to end up with one of your 375's and enter the double rifle world and never wish you still had some of your other bolt rifles in the safe. You've been shooting some heavy recoiling rifles so I think you would be very happy with a 450N.E., 470N.E. or maybe even a 500N.E. Shoot them all then decide. I don't believe you would be satisfied with a 450/400.

Dirk:

Thanks for the quick reply. I'm still enjoying those 570grn solids I got from you a while back. I like your line of thinking since it parallels with the direction I leaning. It is a little overwelming to look at a 10k gun and not be a little nervous about roughing it up in the field. However, I like to shoot when I can more than collect if possible. Thanks again for being the first to weigh in.

Brad

I am sure that you have other smaller bore rifles beyond what you listed. I would suggest selling off a bunch of rifles, paring down the collection.

For example, I would sell one of the 375's, the 416 Ruger and 416RSM and the 500 Jefferey, plus some smaller bore rifles.

Heck, with 22lr, 223, 30-06 class, 375H&H and 458 Lott rifles, plus a 12ga, you would be set to hunt any game anywhere in the world, and with a rifle or shotgun very nearly perfect for each hunt.

Then take the $'s you generate and look for a second hand rifle in the 450NE-470NE class. When you find that rifle, practice and hunt hogs or deer with it and you will be ready for African DG.

Alternative 2 would be pair down, screw the double rifle and go see if you can find a tuskless or non-export elephant hunt for the $'s you generate.

Go hunting now, save for the double later, when the kids are off.

Each approach has its merits. In your shoes, I don't know which way I'd go.

JPK

Brad:

Sell one of the .375s and the .416 Remington and then buy a Krieghoff .500/.516 or a Blaser S2 in .500 NE. I suggest the Krieghoff because the .500/.416 is the best double rifle caliber ever and the .500 S2 because it will be over 11 pounds which is where I think a .500 ought to be and you can get an S2 for less than $9,000 or maybe less than $8,500 from Alex Roy at Euro Optics!

Brad,

I was in exactly the same boat as you. I had way too many rifles and then decided to sell pretty much everything to get a double rifle (.470 NE). Have never regretted it a bit.

Now I have a couple of nice big bore Mausers, a nice Dakota, and a .500 NE double and that's about it.

And right now I think is the time to buy a double; the prices of new Krieghoffs, Merkels, and Chapuis are relatively low with a lot of them on sale. And as you said about the Searcy, there are good deals out there on used rifles.

"the prices of new Krieghoffs, Merkels, and Chapuis are relatively low with a lot of them on sale. And as you said about the Searcy, there are good deals out there on used rifles."

I agree it seems like the economy has caused people to lighten their collections a little and there appears to be much better deals out there. Again I think that by the time a person contemplates a double they either have way too much money or they shot enough other stuff that their ready for something different and special. I like the idea of simplying my collection and having a few really nice rifles rather than several safes full of Walmart guns. I am not in a big hurry right now so I many just start red tagging those guns that are safe queens and start pushing them out slowly. The big trouble will be hanging on to the money while I build it up for a nice double. It always seems that your car blows up on the way to the bank to withdraw your money to buy a new rifle.

Brad

If I could have found exactly the D/R that I wanted, at a price that I

could have afforded, it would have been what I believe to be the most

diversely usable double rifle that any man has ever had, an old U.K. made,

(classic balance/weight distribution) .375 Flanged Magnum caliber, Webley

A&WC actioned rifle with a claw mount for a variable powered scope, the

length of the barrels, 26 or 28 inches, and empty weight with scope off

9 pounds or a few ounces less. I'd use the scope ONLY when absolutely

necessary, I much prefer the idea of getting truly close to the game and

firing over open sights. Using a different action design, I am convinced

that www.heymusa.com can have a rifle built today that would basically

nail these characteristics. Perhaps www.kebcollc.com could get it done

too from Verney-Caron or maybe Chapuis. On every hunt that I went on,

from dik-dik to elephant, it would be my rifle of choice.

Do what's needed to get a double that you'll love to own and shoot.

Our JPK has very articulately warned us to be ever mindful of rifle

weight and African heat and sun. Buy the best rifle that you can

responsibly obtain. Servicable old U.K. built D/Rs have "MAGIC" that

no others do, not even NEW U.K. built examples. DON'T make a decision

too quickly! Really understand what is available for under 5K, around 5K,

under 10K, around 10K, under 15K and so on. Remember the SCOPE issue.

It's a POUND or more added with the mounts. It will make a D/R more flexible

for sure. Do you want a caliber to shoot a lot of elephant with, or only one,

two or three, or NONE? Will you be a buff hunter with it ONLY? Do you want

to shoot big and small NON-DG with it as well as DG? Have fun in your search.
Shoot as many as you can by going to gatherings.

Brad, I have a several doubles but I also like some of my other rifles eg:
Rem 700 HB in 308
Savage 110FP in 223
Blaser in all three barrels (!)
so, in my case, just because I have doubles it is not to the exclusion of my bolt actions. In addition, the double I enjoy and shoot most is my 9.3x74R! Getting beat up is not my idea of fun, but is something that I do to accomplish my objective.
Peter.

Peter:

I would agree that I don't see limiting myself to only owning a double. I just find that a lot of the rifles I own collect way too much dust in my safe. Just as an unused 470 NE in a gun sock is a tradgedy to me. My unused (?) affordable rifle, shotgun, handgun collecting dust in my safe is tradgedy to someone on a more modest budget. I don't mind baby sitting guns that I plan to use I just hate hanging onto average guns of no great collector or sentimental value other than my ego being bruised a little for selling them for less that what I think their worth. I think if I were to take most of them out of my two safes and just live with a select few high quaility guns I might be much more happy in the long run. Now thats an idea I may just consign a whole bunch of them at a local shop I like and live with out them kinda of out of sight out of mind. It just taking the first plunge thats the hard part once their gone and I have a nice double in my hands I think I'll most likely be happy I did it.

Brad

Brad I went through something similar this time last year selling several of my handguns and rifles that I did not shoot much. My motivation was a post by someone on AR about dying and none of the relatives knowing the value of their guns and, perhaps, being in a rush to sell them and raise cash. So I did reduce my collection somewhat, but still have more to go. Of course, I have added a few items, but I find myself saying more and more "don't need that"!!!!
Peter.

Brad,
Same boat as you. Not very rich but am beginning to appreciate the nicer rifles in life.
My advice is to buy or order a Chapuis UGEX in 9,3x74. Great first double that will not break the bank and it is easy to feed and recoil is moderate plus they are usually very accurate. Once you wet your feet then a few years down the road you can go to something bigger if you are so inclined.
Even if you buy a bigger double down the road am betting money you will not sell the Chapuis.

Brad, I think I am one step ahead of you in the process. I bought a Chapuis 9.3X74R last year. So far I have hunted and killed kudu, impala, buffalo, deer and hogs with it. I also have rifles and handguns that sit in the safe and don't get shot. Unfortunately as an airline pilot with the world's worst airline, I am on a budget. I would like another bigger double, still uncertain on the caliber. But then I think about the cost and the hunt I could go on with the money spent on another nice double. I really need to quit buying pistols or other rifles, sell some safe queens and save up for the rest of the cost. I want to do it all but I have to do it with moderation.

quote:

Originally posted by Snowwolfe:
Brad,
Same boat as you. Not very rich but am beginning to appreciate the nicer rifles in life.
My advice is to buy or order a Chapuis UGEX in 9,3x74. Great first double that will not break the bank and it is easy to feed and recoil is moderate plus they are usually very accurate. Once you wet your feet then a few years down the road you can go to something bigger if you are so inclined.
Even if you buy a bigger double down the road am betting money you will not sell the Chapuis.

+1....very good advice.

Brad, your description of your gun collection and tastes mirrors mine to a startling degree, right down to the desire for a double. I had way too many rifles that I liked using, to the point where there was simply not enough time to use any of them more than infrequently. When I decided to sell a bunch of them to finance my African hunt, it was difficult to see them go, but after the hunt I immediately began selling even more. I still toy with the idea of getting a big-bore double, but realistically, I will probably spend the money on another hunt, African or otherwise.

In my case, a double has a lot of appeal for me, but I don't like the idea of another expensive gun that I won't get to use a lot. Another hunt seems like a much surer bet.

Just another angle to consider. Best of luck with whatever you choose.

Brad,
My advice is sell one gun (if you need to raise travel cash) and go to The Safari Club convention in Reno in January. There is no other place where you can handle almost every double rifle made today along with dozens that were made over the last hundred years. You can handle everything from a $150,000 Holland & Holland to a beat up piece of junk that is unsafe to shoot. Keep in mind that the hunt for your dream rifle is a pleasure in and of itself. Take your time and savoy this quest, even if you decide not to buy a double you will have scratched this itch and be at peace. If you buy one and plan to hunt in Africa I would keep one .375 bolt gun. I always have a tracker carry a scoped .375 while I carry my big double, just in case I need to take a long shot at a target of opportunity

My advice would be to find some doubles somewhere you could shoot to see if it really is what you want.

JWM-I guess it must be an ontario thing because my big-bore assortment is almost identical as well. With the exception that I broke down a coouple of years ago and bought a new Heym .470.
to be honest I kind of regret it. My Lott RSM shoots soooo much better that I cannot imagine that I will ever take the Heym on a safari. It has basically been relegated to shooting pumpkins and water bottles at the range.

I would say save your sheckels and go on a good hunt instead of spending the money on a gun that you may or may not like.

JWM if you want to shoot some pumpkins with a double in southern ontario sometime, drop me a PM.

Thanks for all the valuable insight. I have really enjoyed reading this post I have truly learned a lot from everyone thus far. At point I feel poisoned by my interest in double rifles. I went to the local gun shop that I have frequented for years. I couldn’t get excited about the walls of mediocre guns. I was hunting around for a double hidden behind the AR15’a and plain jane deer rifles. My wife made it clear tonight no trips to Africa for the time being. The SCI conference is a long shot at best. I fear if I went I might impulse buy a rifle or worse start romancing for an African hunt that I can’t have right now. Don’t get me wrong I have a great wife it’s just she’s right about flying off to Africa not right now. Also I am happy to see others are in my same boat right now as far as too many average rifles. Therefore, I have come away with the following conclusions so far.
1. No one has any feelings about the Ruger No 1 as even close to replicating shooting a double rifle.
2. It seems regardless of caliber most people like their doubles.
3. Some of you have purchased a double and never looked back but others seem to be disappointed.
I think in order to be truly happy with your purchase you need to get exactly what you want and enjoy it. I am still motivated to unload some excess inventory so I can truly enjoy what I own and I am still looking for a nice double. At this point I seem to be drawn towards a Searcy PH however, I kind of missed the boat on this one since he stopped making them oh well… I guess I just keep looking.

Brad

I would suggest doing what I did: bought a Chapuis DR in 9,3x74R. I got back from a great two week hunt in SA for Plains Game. I got three really nice antelope, and a bonus Caracal. The rifle worked great, mine is scoped.
It is more than adequate for anything on this continent, and one with scope set up is still a sub-$6000 rifle. I also got an early Searcy in .470 NE, but that is not the point here.
The Double Rifle just IS Africa.

Good Luck with your dream...

Rich
DRSS

Do you reload?? How often do you shoot the rifles you currently own and how many rounds a year?

Thanks for all the help. I was in Phoenix this past week and I was able to make it over Cabela’s gun library. I handled a new Sabatti 45-70, Merkel 140 470 NE, and a Chapuis 470 NE. I also found a Merkel 140 in 375 H&H at a local shop. I think if a picture is worth a thousand words then a handling the rifle is worth 10,000. First off I like the feel of the double rifle a lot. But… I don’t know if I liked it $10,000 worth. I will not argue about why they cost so much since I understand all the reasons. However, unless I can find exactly what I want I don’t think I’m quite ready to jump off the fence. At the last shop was a nice RSM in 375 H&H priced less than $1500. It felt good and most likely shot equally well. I compared it side by side with the 375 H&H Merkel which was the cost of the RSM + $6200. The store owner made the statement that he had one and that everyone needs at least one double rifle in their collection. I AGREE. However, at this point I may consider trying to pick up one of those Cabela’s Sabatti’s in 450NE or at least see one first hand. At $5500 it might be a good place to start. I’d still consider a Searcy base model in 450-400 or 450NE but it looks like they won’t be making anymore. Short of this I think I may sell off any guns I really don’t see that I will use in the near future and start saving a little. Since I have the 500 Jeffery I don’t see that I would use a 470 or 500 NE as much as the 450 or 450-400 which I could reload a lot cheaper and shoot more. I haven’t ruled out the 9.3mm x 74R but I’d like something slightly bigger. I know that I would shoot that RSM 375 H&H more right now than a double since its cheap and easy to reload. All in all I’m happy with how the double felt but give the price I’m not going to rush into anything less than the perfect rifle at a good price.

Thanks Again
Brad

quote:

Originally posted by Brad aka Pill Shooter:
Thanks for all the help. I was in Phoenix this past week and I was able to make it over Cabela’s gun library. I handled a new Sabatti 45-70, Merkel 140 470 NE, and a Chapuis 470 NE. I also found a Merkel 140 in 375 H&H at a local shop. I think if a picture is worth a thousand words then a handling the rifle is worth 10,000. First off I like the feel of the double rifle a lot. But… I don’t know if I liked it $10,000 worth. I will not argue about why they cost so much since I understand all the reasons. However, unless I can find exactly what I want I don’t think I’m quite ready to jump off the fence. At the last shop was a nice RSM in 375 H&H priced less than $1500. It felt good and most likely shot equally well. I compared it side by side with the 375 H&H Merkel which was the cost of the RSM + $6200. The store owner made the statement that he had one and that everyone needs at least one double rifle in their collection. I AGREE. However, at this point I may consider trying to pick up one of those Cabela’s Sabatti’s in 450NE or at least see one first hand. At $5500 it might be a good place to start. I’d still consider a Searcy base model in 450-400 or 450NE but it looks like they won’t be making anymore. Short of this I think I may sell off any guns I really don’t see that I will use in the near future and start saving a little. Since I have the 500 Jeffery I don’t see that I would use a 470 or 500 NE as much as the 450 or 450-400 which I could reload a lot cheaper and shoot more. I haven’t ruled out the 9.3mm x 74R but I’d like something slightly bigger. I know that I would shoot that RSM 375 H&H more right now than a double since its cheap and easy to reload. All in all I’m happy with how the double felt but give the price I’m not going to rush into anything less than the perfect rifle at a good price.

Thanks Again
Brad

Brad that is absolutely sound thinking! However, who in the gun nut crew ever does anything with sound thinking!

You can buy $30K worth of bolt rifles, and single shots and none of thenm will be a double rifle. The only way to pop the baloon of desire for a double rifle is to back your ears and buy one.

The best thing, IMO, is a good S/S 9.3X74R for a first double rifle. It will handle anything on the North American contenant, and most of what Africa has to offer, and when paired with a good QD scope mount, is about an "ALL AROUND" double rifle for the world. That rifle will set you back about $5K or $6K, and is fairely cheap to shoot a lot. This rifle will tell you if you are really a double rifle person, and if not, the rifle will be easy to sell and even sometimes make money on.

The only cure for double rifle fever is a double rifle! It has always been my experience that once you buy, and use a double rifle, you will slowly discontinue the use of you rifles of other types! You will find youself most comfortable when carrying a double rifle no matter what big game you are hunting!

........................

I am considering another Chapuis as we speak but this one in 375 H&H. The Brousse model:

BROUSSE
Sculptured, reinforced, Anson receiver in French Grey or color case hardened- Double parallel under lug locking system- 24” barrels- Blitz-type double trigger battery- Quarter rib with 4 leaf express rear sight- Fine line English scroll engraving- Pistol grip stock with cheek piece- AA fancy Circassian Walnut- Recoil pad- Lengthened trigger bow and steel grip cap- Shipped with regulation target in a molded fitted case.

CALIBERS / WEIGHT /RETAIL PRICE
300 Win. Mag. / 4.2 Kg. / $7500
375 H&H / 4.2 Kg. / $7500
470 NE / 4.9 Kg. / $9500
416 Rigby / 4.9 Kg / $10500


Prices are even less now since the Euro is sliding and I am waiting for it to slide some more (I hope). These rifles can be built to your specs as far as stock fit.

Problem Solved As I quoted above if I could get a Butch Searcy Double in 450-400 I'd snatch it up. Well I just did. Called Butch this morning and check goes out today. I think that this is exactly what I wanted a nice American made double in a shootable caliber regulated with US ammo. Stay Tuned since I am going to have a FIRE SALE with a lot of my collection to afford the double. However, I really want fewer guns that I can enjoy more in the long run.

Thanks Brad

Brad, sounds like you did real good there. Betcha a dollar you will absolutely love that Searcy and you will shoot everything from prairie dogs to elephants with it.

Brad,

Think you just made a great catch.

Congratulations,
Emory

Be sure and post some pictures!

Photos Sent Today from Butch






Brad

Butch builds a damn nice rifle for sure, and that one is no exception!

................Congratulations sir!