Shot a friends 470 Chapuis this week. Let me say for the record here and now that as one who has done alot of hand wringing over whether the DR I ordered should be 470 or 500, I'll be very happy with a 470. My only DR so far was a Chapuis 9.3 and I had to miss out on shooting alot of big bore DRs at the last DRSS due to biz conflict. So I've been very busy and active looking at/for big bore DRs and have handled dozens from Chapuis & Merkel to Heym and many English guns but I've only now just got to spend time shooting a big bore double.

The regular Norma ammo likely lived up to it's specs, 2165 fps, as a hot load. No chrono but it was noticably hotter than the Federal (factory-2150 fps). Norma had very flat primers but no cupping. Also no air space nor filler according to Norma and we didn't see anything flying out. This box of Cape Shok had no hot rounds but printed inconsistently whereas the Norma was very accurate. I feel that the Federal was inconsistent speed wise due to stringing up/down. Voluminous air space in the case typical of all the Fed 470 loads. I won't be buying any Federal 470 any time soon. All here who said the federal was inconsistent from round to round or box to box was correct.

Also for the record, I don't feel that original Kynoch specs for the 470, if still in place and if producing +/-2000 fps for 24" bbl, are something that I'll settle for. This said, there have been many here who have pointedly steered me away from thinking that the 470 HAD to be going as fast as it possibly can in order to be as effective as it possibly can be. This was my flawed thinking in the opposite. If in fact the Norma does 2165 it was a spanking hot load and all I'd care to shoot, especially under duress, which lead me to be thankful that I didn't order a 500! With modern bullets it'll likely kill anything under ANY conditions.

At first I didn't get why the new Norma PH line 470 was loaded down to 2100 fps from their other load, but now I do. It's enough. Certainly with the Woodleighs they load and I believe even more so with North Forks or GS Custom bullets, 2100 fps is likely a sweet spot. A sweet shooter and very effective.

Another thing too, is that Norma ammo is less expensive than Federals. You're lucky you chose the 470 over the 500 since there aren't any factory 500 rounds available. In fact, if you don't reload yet, you'll have to get custom loaders to do it for you. Components for the 500 are available but at a much higher price.

Yep, you're right 475. Regular Norma 470 is 50% less!! But.. there is a factory load and it's by Norma. This is the PH line stuff, 570 gr Woodleighs FMJ or SP 10 packs. Downside is the PH stuff costs the same or MORE than Federal, depending on caliber. I do reload but yeah it's not as efficient loading 500 as 470.

http://www.norma.cc/content.asp?Typ=68&Lang=2&Submeny=2&Rubrik=African%20PH

After shooting both the federal and the norma factory loads, I agree with showbart that the norma is more accurate (at least in my gun), and I agree that you really can tell a difference in felt recoil between the regular norma and the federal factory loads. Like showbart said, we forgot the chrono, but I would guesss that there was certainly more than a 15 fps difference between the federal and norma ballistics. I don't think that at that level of recoil we could have noticed such an insignificant difference in velocity had the specs been what federal claims... next time we'll have to bring my chrono for more empirical evidence.

Also, I too agree that the norma PH factory loads would be sufficicent assuming that they are as accurate as the regular norma rounds. Ironically, my Chapuis was regulated with the federal woodleigh factory loads.

Showbart didn't mention that we were both shooting a 470 chapuis that was at least an inch short at the stock for the both of us (i.e. it was as uncomfortable to shoot it as it was the 505 Gibbs I had shot the previous week). We slid on an additional leather butt pad that significantly reduced the felt recoil.

The rifle was accurate, particularly with the norma loads, but the rear trigger is ridicuously sticky. It was tough placing that second shot well. I'm probably going to end up sending it to Champlin's for a trigger job and some extensions on the stock.

maddenwh is being kind to the Chapuis. Both triggers were awful, with the rear being nothing short of atrocious. We were shooting quickly, offhand at 50 yds with reload. The rifle is likely a tack driver. I was firing as soon as I had a good sight picture and it had the semblence of an off the bench group. Very well built, beautiful gun. For me the fit wasn't just lop but all specs. I did start a new post to get a better idea of how other owners factory entry level big bore DRs fit them and what were standard specs. Mac said his 2 Merkels were spot on to the specs on the GSI site. I can't find any Chapuis factory specs. My French guns maker has specs specific to big bore African DRs AND the US market.

I agree that you wouldn't notice 15fps difference in velocity at 470 recoil levels.

I don't notice 85fps difference in my 458wm double rifle, all components the same just the powder charge weight different.

But I do notice different powders produce recoil differently and so produce different felt recoil. Faster powders require less weight of charge, but produce more felt recoil for velocity it seems to me.

Looking forward to you all's report when you try the chrono.

If 2100fps is enogh with the 500gr Woodleighs and in my opinion, it is, though none too stiff for bull elephants, 2100fps with North Forks 500gr flat point solids will surely be better for penetration.

Showbart, if your at your comfort limit with 470 recoil, find a lighter load that recoils less for practice. When you have game in your sights, let alone dangerous game, what was uncomfortable at the range will produce just sufficient recoil to let you know that the cartidge fired. No need to worry on that front.

JPK

JPK

JPK

Si JPK, JPK, JPK.
I am at my comfort level with the 470 Nitro Express, period. Now if November would come and bring me my rifle!

Huntington's has cast 470's, haven't looked aorund tho, so unless someone suggests otherwise these look to be the ticket. I'll be happy as can be with Jamison brass over twice the price Norma. All I need is to turn down a pilot for my old trimmer and I have 470 reload open for biz.

Jeez, and I haven't even been drinking tonight. Not sue how I managed to do that.

If you do a search here on this forum on cast and light load options for the 470, you will come up with some leads. I recall several threads on the topic. Also look for 450 NE No 2's threads about the 75% Rule.

Truly, though, you can accustom yourself to the recoil. Here's how I do it:
DON'T GO TO A RANGE THAT REQUIRES SITTING AT A BENCH!!!
1.) Take a 375H&H to the range along with my 458wm. Shoot some 375H&H, it is pretty tame comparably, but will get you accustmed to some recoil.
2.) Switch to the 458wm and remind myself that the rifle won't actually hurt me.
3.) Touch off maybe five or ten loads with 350gr bullets that sit on the same powder, these follw 450 NE No2's 75% Rule. They offer stout recoil but not quite full house recoil.
4.) Quit if I'm feeling it. Some days I'm more recoil sensative than others.
5.) If I feel like it shoot 5 or 10 full loads.
6.) Go home.
IMPORTANT HERE:
7.) Go back to the range no more than a week later, preferable only a couple of days later. Remind myself that the rifle won't actually hurt me.
8.) Skip the 375H&H or bring it depending on how it went last visit.
9.) Shoot 10 or 15 350gr loads.
10.) Shoot 10 full loads.
11.) Go home.
IMPORTANT AGAIN:
12.) Go to the range no later than one week from last session, remind myself that the rifle won't actually hurt me.
13.) Skip the 375H&H.
14.) Shoot 15 or 20 350gr loads.
15.) Shoot 10 full loads.
IMPORTANT AGAIN:
16.) Go to the range no later than one week later.
17.) Shoot only full loads - by now I'm semi tollerant and want to shoot the full loads since they are more accurate in my rifle. I'll shoot at least 15. I will concentrate hard on 25yd targets, trying to shoot the smallest group possible, the concentration, and being able to see the holes clearly at the short range will reduce felt recoil.
IMPORTANT AGAIN:
18.) Go to the range no less than one week later...

If I take more than a couple of months off shooting my big bore I need to reacquant myself with the recoil. It takes about a month of no less than weekly shooting if I've laid off for six months or so. By the time I'm done, I'd rather shoot my big bore than a 22lr, which I always bring to the range for offhand practice at 50yds. I find the relative muzzle heavy balance of my double rifles prefferabe to the 22's and I'll shoot better at 50yds with them.

I've shot as many as 40 full loads a day, off of a standing bench, while working up loads. Some days are better than others. On a good day I'm good for about 25 full loads with excellent accuracy, but I will begin to fall off after that. Its not flinching, but I'll start to have trouble concentrating and my eyes start getting tired and I'll have trouble focusing on the sights and target.

If I shoot my big bores monthly or more often, the recoil tollerance I've built up will stick around and only fall off slowly.

And truly, with a buff or elephant in the sights, or any game, recoil just isn't an issue, you will harly feel it.

JPK

Actually I had been drinking.

That's a good system you've worked up, JPK. The bullets at Huntington's are 500 grain. There's a good article too at African Hunter online about cast loads, complete with casting info too.

With regards to the Chapuis' recoil- Showbart- I wouldn't be so sure that your limit is the 470 just from shooting my rifle. As I told you at the range, I shot a 505 Gibbs the week before, and it wasn't significantly any different than that 470. I think that its specs just didn't fit either of us (both about 6'2", and the thing was made for a 5'7" french guy). I think I do remember you saying that shooting the Lott was more comfortable.

I'm going to call J.J. tomorrow, assuming I get a break from this hell they call law school, and see if there is anyway to work with the fitting of the gun. Obviously, I'll need to put on some stock extensions.

At this time I'd say that given the facts, as you've stated correctly, it was on a par with shooting the M70 458 Lott that fit me.

On that score, I'll pitch in and say an ill fitting rifle kicks a heck of a lot more than one that fits. For example, a couple of weeks ago I shot a 375H&H double rifle that was a pita and that I couldn't shoot well because it was way too short.

A 375H&H doesn't offer much recoil in a rifle that fits.

JPK

I couldn't agree more. I generally have to put at least a couple of 1/4 in. extensions on my rifles for an LOP of roughly 15 1/4 in.. I think I'm at least an inch short of that on the Chapuis. It really did bang the hell out of me, but when I put the additional slip on the butt giving it a least another inch on the stock, it wasn't nearly as bad. I'm just worried that stock length isn't the only aspect of the rifle that doesn't fit me.