An older (hammer) nitro is being offered as a 500/450. However, on the barrel flats it is marked as "Cordite 70 Ball 480 Maxm", and also "450 exp".

Research shows the 500/450 should be 75 cordite. Might the seller be wrong and it is a 450 nitro express?

Would a chamber cast be needed, or can I purchase a single (or 5 pack) of 500/450 and just check the fit?

The weight is right for a nitro, however in the old English rifles should a 45 barrel be slugged? Or is the diameter reliable? I have read of the problems with barrel diameters of the older 400/450 rifles.

Brain lock in two places, 450 EX not EXP and the cordite and ball weights are followed by an abbreviation for grains.

The original load for the 450 3-1/4" is 70/480.
Even feeling the chamber with something like a chopstick will allow you to feel if it is a necked 500/450 or a straight 450. Otherwise, just caliper the breech as it will be pretty obvious whether it is one or the other without needing to go through with a chamber cast.

450 EX was used on .450 NE, .450 no2, and .500-450 NE. It was also used on bpe doubles but rarely did the bpe list the bullet weight as XXX MAX. The weight of the rifle should give away if it is a NE or bpe rifle. And, as Huvius wrote, a chamber examination will tell which case it was made for.
Cal

PS. I have also seen bpe rifles re proved for nitro powders. One hint is the bullet weight and cordite charge may be a bit less than the standard NE loading.

70 gr Cordite 480gr bullet is the Tropical Load for the 500/450 3 1/4" Magnum and mine is so marked. I have yet to handle a rifle that was proofed for the 75gr load as listed in the 1910 Kynoch catalogue.

Cheers, Chris

Thank you all for the help. Rockdoc (geologist? aka a doodlebugger? by any chance? slang term for a geologist where I call home)and everyone else, would the tropical load in a 500/450 give enough penetration for the frontal brain shot on elephant? I have only killed one ele and it was with a 375 H&H.

Probably, thanks to rockdoc for solving the mystery, Huvius for a simple check solution, and to Cal for a second double check. Since the seller claims the weight is close to 12 pounds, it should be an original nitro.

I am trying to learn guys, thanks again for the help.

Hello,

My Holland Royal 500/450 is marked 70 Cordite as well. I've seen quite a few 500/450s marked 70 / 480, can't recall one marked 75/480.

It's rare to find guns in this chambering post 1905 or so when the Brits stopped the importation of 45 cal rifles into India and other colonies in an effort to try and limit access to ammo for insurgents leading to the development of the 470, etc.

Always a good idea to do a chamber cast with a vintage rifle.

Good luck and I'd like to hear how it works out.

470 Evans I have not seen many 500/450 H&H rifles made post 1906. TR's famous H&H Royal was made in 1908 and chambered in 500/450 3 1/4". I do not know why it was not chambered in the then new 500/465 cartridge. Probably the order was started in 1907? TR's rifle was proofed for the 70gr Cordite charge also.

His rifle was made at the change from the non to detachable sideplates. His is the non detachable.

My 500/450 Royal was delivered in 1906.

Doing a little cleaning this am and found my copy of the 1901-02 Kynoch ammunition catalog.

It lists the 500/450 with 70 grs Cordite and a 480gr bullet at 2200 fps. It also shows the 450 3 1/4 at 70 grs cordite and a 480gr bullet at 2250 fps. Quite optimistic on the velocity I'd say!

This supports the idea that 70/480 was the primary loading not a tropical load and would explain why I've only seen 500/450 marked 70/480.

In later catalogs the load is listed as 75/480 but by then the 450 ban was in effect and not many rifles were made in this caliber.

quote:

Originally posted by 470Evans:
Doing a little cleaning this am and found my copy of the 1901-02 Kynoch ammunition catalog.

It lists the 500/450 with 70 grs Cordite and a 480gr bullet at 2200 fps. It also shows the 450 3 1/4 at 70 grs cordite and a 480gr bullet at 2250 fps. Quite optimistic on the velocity I'd say!

This supports the idea that 70/480 was the primary loading not a tropical load and would explain why I've only seen 500/450 marked 70/480.

In later catalogs the load is listed as 75/480 but by then the 450 ban was in effect and not many rifles were made in this caliber.

Speaking of the .450Nitro. Winchester tried in with their .458Win to duplicate past times .450Nitro ballistics. It has been a commen knowledge that Winchester .458cal ammunitions didn´t live up to claimed ballistics...BUT..there is a BUT in the book `Expert`s on guns & shooting`(1900) by GT Teadale-Buckell on page 461(Rigby chapter) a Mr.Knight, Maneger of Curtis & Harvey conducted velocity tests on Rigby´s .450Nitro. The 480grain is 1970 ft/sec and 350Grain is 2059 ft/sec.

Maybe Winchester afterall got it right?...:LOL

quote:

Originally posted by Arniet:
Thank you all for the help. Rockdoc (geologist? aka a doodlebugger? by any chance? slang term for a geologist where I call home)and everyone else, would the tropical load in a 500/450 give enough penetration for the frontal brain shot on elephant? I have only killed one ele and it was with a 375 H&H.

Probably, thanks to rockdoc for solving the mystery, Huvius for a simple check solution, and to Cal for a second double check. Since the seller claims the weight is close to 12 pounds, it should be an original nitro.

I am trying to learn guys, thanks again for the help.

Yes, rockdoc = geologist!

For the frontal ele brainshot I would not worry at all. Many professionals used the likes of the 500/450 3 1/4" as their daily weapons, such as Fletcher Jamieson before switching to the 500 Jeffery due to injuries he received to his left arm when young made operating a magazine rifle easier than a double. The photos of the double with game featured in Pondoro Taylor's African Rifles and Cartridges are of Jamieson's 500/450 3 1/4" H&H Royal. As well as the aforementioned Royal used by President Roosevelt on his epic African Safari.

12lbs is a lot of rifle for a 500/450 3 1/4". Mine weighs about 10 1/2lbs.

Cheers, Chris

Thanks again for all the help. I am trying to talk myself into buying a rifle from the beginning of the nitro era. Hammers and an underlever fit my vision. However, buying modern is a lot easier.

In full disclosure I am a retired Petroleum Engineer, and you know the problems that engineers have with trying to find problems that fit the solutions we already have!

Jens,
I see that as two wrongs don't make a right!

quote:

Originally posted by Arniet:


In full disclosure I am a retired Petroleum Engineer, and you know the problems that engineers have with trying to find problems that fit the solutions we already have!

Explains a lot

That coming from a geologist