Something I've been long curious about. Why the splinter forearms typically seen on doubles? Even on modern ones (and I realize there may be some other proper name for it and please excuse that).

I'm a lot more used to double shotguns and there have owned both kinds. I much prefer the full or beavertail, similar to what you see on a Winchester Model 21 or the modern Browning SxS. Among other reasons my left hand doesn't get scorched by the barrels during a hot round of skeet or doves (O/U forearms don't do that). And no damp, salty fingerprints on the barrels. I also realize they have covers you can put on the barrels, but they're rather funky looking imo.

I've heard that the splinter forearms in rifles are because you're not supposed to hold the forearms. The heavy recoil apparently could cause them to disengage. But, I believe I've seen the full version on expensive modern doubles, so there must be more to it.

Anyway, the full forearms imho look a lot better.

Beavertail forearms are a very modern invention, made for shotguns which get shot a lot at once, as you indicate, and were not fitted to a proper DR for that very reason; you don't fire more than two shots at a time, maybe 4 in a very rare occasion. If your hand is that sensitive to heat from 2 shots, wear gloves. They don't look right on a DR and should not exist, IMO, but for some reason, makers insist on it, when they are not needed at all and look funny, to me. When I ordered my latest Chapuis, I was told that they simply won't make anything but the fat, ugly one. Yuk. Don't go there. I know some like it, but can you tell, I am not one of them?

Shack, if you do like the beavertail forend, Chapuis is definitely the way to go. Good choice anyway, regardless of forend style.

I prefer a splinter forend on a double as the gun lays lower in the hand.

Also, even on a beavertail double that is a hard kicker, it is not a bad idea to have some fingers on the barrel so the forend, forend mechanism does not take all the pressures of the recoil, IMHO.

Also it helps keep a hard kicker from jumping out of your hands, wet sweaty, etc., and helps you hold the rifle down in recoil for faster follow up shots.

Heym will make your double rifle with a splinter or a beavertail, what ever is your preference.

I do not like the fat forends on shotguns or rifles at all. Tracing the line of a fine shotgun from the stock through the grip, the action and then finding that big forend is like looking at Audrey Hepburn's face then looking down and seeing Rosie Odonnels butt...there may be more to hold on to but half the fun is the looks...no?

Put me in the skinny forend club...

While I've burned my fingers on the barrels from too much practice too quickly, I'm with NE 450 No 2 - being able to wrap my fingers around the barrels on my 577 and 600 helps with barrel control. As he said, Heym will give you either as will Verney-Carron.

Splinter all the way for me. Various reasons, among them being traditional looks as well as the requirement to grasp the barrels on hard kicking calibers. The beavertail just looks funky and feels worse but opinions vary on this.

Funny thing however, when I first became interested in Double Rifles, I liked the beavertails better. But with a little time, education, and actually shooting them, the splinter became my favorite. Much like a fine Single Malt Scotch is an acquired taste! Most novice drinkers of whisky prefer Jack Daniels and Coke. Just think of the splinter as glass of Lagavulin and the beavertail as ... well ... a 7-11 cup full of Whisk-Cola and ice!

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:
Splinter all the way for me. Various reasons, among them being traditional looks as well as the requirement to grasp the barrels on hard kicking calibers. The beavertail just looks funky and feels worse but opinionsIj vary on this.

Funny thing however, when I first became interested in Double Rifles, I liked the beavertails better. But with a little time, education, and actually shooting them, the splinter became my favorite. Much like a fine Single Malt Scotch is an acquired taste! Most novice drinkers of whisky prefer Jack Daniels and Coke. Just think of the splinter as glass of Lagavulin and the beavertail as ... well ... a 7-11 cup full of Whisk-Cola and ice!

Sheesh - I get lightheaded just looking at the labels on that stuff. No idea how you drink it.

Agree with the sentiments.


I do love some of the anecdotes that some of you have used. Very funny.

"Much like a fine Single Malt Scotch is an acquired taste! Most novice drinkers of whisky prefer Jack Daniels and Coke. Just think of the splinter as glass of Lagavulin and the beavertail as ... well ... a 7-11 cup full of Whisk-Cola and ice!"

"Tracing the line of a fine shotgun from the stock through the grip, the action and then finding that big forend is like looking at Audrey Hepburn's face then looking down and seeing Rosie Odonnels butt...there may be more to hold on to but half the fun is the looks...no?"

.

Well, remember I was used to the classic looks of the Model 21 before I even saw my first Westley Richards 450/.400 live in person, so...

In any event, does the theory that holding on to a full forearm instead of the barrels really entail risk of the two going their separate ways due to recoil? Now, I'd have to admit if that holds water, it'd be hard to argue otherwise.

quote:

Originally posted by Shack:
Well, remember I was used to the classic looks of the Model 21 before I even saw my first Westley Richards 450/.400 live in person, so...

In any event, does the theory that holding on to a full forearm instead of the barrels really entail risk of the two going their separate ways due to recoil? Now, I'd have to admit if that holds water, it'd be hard to argue otherwise.

It's a possibility, yes.

Especially on some of the older guns.


Now, re "Well, remember I was used to the classic looks of the Model 21 before I even saw my first Westley Richards 450/.400 live in person, so..." AND then after seeing a Westley Richards 450/.400 I realised what Classic really meant !!! LOL

.

..actually that's true...and it's saying a lot for those who know both..

quote:

Originally posted by Shack:
..actually that's true...and it's saying a lot for those who know both..

I have a couple of mates over here who have Model 21's and loved them, until they saw English stuff. One is now a confirmed Anglophile, the other adored the English guns but couldn't afford to buy one.

.

I personally like them, but on shotguns was never into straight stocks. Afterall, you know how we here are into not only pistol grips, but the pistol to go with them.

But sure, I'd buy an old Purdey, but for the cost...

..at the moment I'm negotiating to buy a 20 ga Parker VH and have it re-stocked. We may lose the splinter forearm if it's feasible.

My 30-30 double began life as a Trojan Grade 20 ga Parker. Shooting it at the range and comparing with a gun like a lever Model 94, it seems to me the fingers wrapped around the barrels comes closer to compromising the field of view or line of sight than I care for. But, admittedly a lot of this is just what I've been used to.

The reason the US was not into straight stocks is because you do different shooting to the type done in the UK.

And of course the US never had any class when making shotguns which are more like railway sleepers welded together than refined, lighter weight game guns !!! LOL


BTW - I have a William Douglass 470 Nitro that has a beaver tail forend. Great lump of a thing it is (the fore end I mean).

Better be careful. You might hurt the feelings of our sleek, beautiful, stainless steel, streamlined railway sleepers.

Now that I think about it, if holding the forearms and not the barrels of 10 Gauge Magnum shotguns with 3 1/2" shells of full charges doesn't run any risk of the arm separating, then...

Not that I'm a user of doubles or would speak with any authority, others here can do that but when reading some of the old timers stories (and some not so old) it seems the 'correct' way to use a double rifle is with the fingers wrapped around the barrels. Supposedly this gives a good steady platform and also helps hold the rifle down under recoil.
The last thing you want is for the rifle to lift out of the forehand under recoil or perhaps as suggested, disengage the fore-end from the barrels in the heat of the moment. How likely that would be with a well made gun who knows?
Perhaps it was a thing of the past with well worn old doubles?

Splinter all the way. Anyone buying a double rifle with a beavertail fore end needs his head seeing to INMHO . I see the Model 21 being mentioned here, at the risk of offending some of you chaps over the pond I am continually amazed at the prices you guys pay for that clunky old piece of ironmongery ! For sure there is an arbitrage for an enterprising chap in the US to come over to Europe and try to get 10 or more of those things from UK to US. They sell for at least 100% more in US than UK (Europe)

Model 21?

"Model 21?"

Yes, that marvel and envy of the shotgunning world. That any museum of fine art should be proud to prominently display. That wonderfully over-engineered and esthetic and ergonomic masterpiece that's more beautiful to behold than any other shotgun ever thought about being. And that many of us felt we couldn't go on living another day if we didn't own.

And that was such a labor of love for Winchester, that they wound up building them at a loss (from what I hear).

And btw, be sure to ask me about my Model 21...

Anyway, has anyone ever really heard of a forearm taking flight under recoil? In a double rifle or SxS shotgun? In a shotgun, I have not.

quote:

Splinter all the way. Anyone buying a double rifle with a beavertail fore end needs his head seeing to INMHO

Right on; and Rosie O'Donnells butt too.
Beavertail foreams, like Monte Carlo stocks, were invented by Americans to solve non existent problems. Our English brethern were, and are, still on the right track as far as DR design goes. I hate them, but own a few as often there is no other choice. And I can't afford a Heym right now. To answer your question about them coming off in recoil; I have not had that happen, but I grasp the barrels as well. They all have positive hanger hooks so are pretty firmly attached. Still, don't get one if you can help it; it just isn't right.

quote:

Originally posted by Shack:
Well, remember I was used to the classic looks of the Model 21 before I even saw my first Westley Richards 450/.400 live in person, so...

So……. First off the model 21 Winchester is not a “classic” style shotgun, but an American styled shotgun. This is much like the California style stocks on rifles like the Pimped up Weatherbys.
The classic style in shotguns, and rifles alike all have short thin fore ends!

quote:

In any event, does the theory that holding on to a full forearm instead of the barrels really entail risk of the two going their separate ways due to recoil? Now, I'd have to admit if that holds water, it'd be hard to argue otherwise.

There are some sound reasons for the thin so-called “SPLINTER” for ends on classic rifles and shotguns of the double barreled S/S barrel configuration and the bolt rifle in larger chamberings. The proper way to hold a double rifle is with the forehand on the forward tip of the fore end wood, with the fingers wrapped around the barrels, with the wood resting in the palm of the forehand. On the large bore bolt rifle/ single shot or double rifle there are two reasons for the short fore end. One is because the front sling eye is properly mounted on the barrel rather than the wood, and this is done for two reasons as well. #1 is because with this placing of the sling swivel far up on the barrel allows the muzzle to be no higher than the top of the hunters head when carried on the sling so it doesn’t catch on foliage, and #2 reason is because when mounted in the wood of the fore end puts too much strain on the wood as does the beavertail fore end wood when grasped by the forehand.

The placing of the forehand at the front tip of the fore end wood, grasping the barrels, puts 1/3rd of the total weight of the rifle equally between the hands for perfect balance of the bolt rife, single shot or double rifle for instinctive shooting, and to control the heavy recoiling rifle!

The fact is, Shack, you may set your rifle up any way you choose, it is your business, but that fact doesn’t mean there are not sound reasons for the real “CLASSIC” fore end on a double rifle or shotgun which is a splinter. The only reason you will ever see a beavertail fore end on a double rifle is to pander to the American’s invention of the big fender fins, and the BIGGER IS BETTER styling of everything made in the USA.

To me, a beavertail fore end makes a double rifle look like a pregnant guppy, but that is just me and most other folks who shoot double rifles! The Beaver tail simply destroys the sleek lines of a fine double rifle or shotgun.

…………………………………………………………………………………............................................

Right on again; I have actually never met anyone who owned a DR, who wanted or liked the beavertail forearm, once he or she was shown the difference. Historically, and functionally. I hate them, can you tell? They look, and feel, wrong on so many levels. I can't top the one about Rosie O'Donnells ass.

For appearance, function, and feel, splinters are just "proper" on a double for me.

quote:

Originally posted by Antlers:
For appearance, function, and feel, splinters are just "proper" on a double for me.

+1

I like the look of the splinter forearm better but frankly, I just don't care. I care more about how the gun is built and how it handles and shoots so either one is okay with me.

Mac nailed it. Wear a glove if you are worried about getting burned.

I finally found a non-splinter forearm for doubles that I think looks good - http://www.gunbroker.com/Aucti....aspx?Item=300482245.

I know the feeling contra beavertails and the like here, but does this one come anywhere near passing inspection?

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:
Model 21?

I would concur. I just don't get them? Talk about WAY overpriced.

Brett

quote:

Originally posted by Antlers:
For appearance, function, and feel, splinters are just "proper" on a double for me.

+1

Brett

quote:

Originally posted by Shack:
I finally found a non-splinter forearm for doubles that I think looks good - http://www.gunbroker.com/Aucti....aspx?Item=300482245.

I know the feeling contra beavertails and the like here, but does this one come anywhere near passing inspection?

NO!!

Shack:

What you should glean from this entire discussion is that for most double rifle guys, how a double "looks" is of critical importance. As far as the function of the gun, there isn't a nickels worth of difference between a splinter or a beavertail forend. Pick the one you like best and it someone tells you they prefer a different forend, tell them to piss off. After all, it's your money.

I love the looks and feel of a splinter forend but the barrels burn my hands after 4 shots. Chapuis beavertail is a good thin one and I like it. I recently made an elephant leather sleeve to go over my 500 Sabatti barrels to keep me from burning my fingers. You can see it in the big bores under Terminal Performance in the photo of my Australian buffalo. This sleeve was easy to make and worked great.

This is a delicate subject for me because there is nothing I detest as much as a beavertail fore-end, yet, I know many of my colleagues who not only shoot them better but think they are the classic style, and they cannot be convinced otherwise. Most of these colleagues have never been out of the South, and truly believe the South is Gonna Rise Agin.

And I live and grew up in the South.

First, and most important, does the gun fit you? If it does in a double rifle, then you should be able to shoot the gun instinctively without worrying about the foreend, drop, etc. You just point and shoot; much like a well-fitted shotgun.

For me, the beavertail is just a deterrance to what should be; it just bothers me. Although I cannot see a difference in performance when I use a beavertail.

My JP Sauer Drilling has a beavertail that was added after manufacture and before I bought it. I hate the damn thing, but I still shoot and love the gun dearly. It would be perhaps the last gun I would be willing to part with.

The final note: Beavertails are just flat ugly, serve no real purpose, and detract from the value of a used product.----There you have it.------Chapuis, please stop making such abominations and your sales would double, if not triple. Same for Heyms, although their semi-beavertails are less obnoxious.

We shoot doubles for two very fast shots, and secondly for tradition / history / nostalgia. No technological innovations can change that. (And that is why the Blaser is so poorly accepted).

Mike

quote:

Most of these colleagues have never been out of the South, and truly believe the South is Gonna Rise Agin.

That's not true. I have been out of the South...

Seriously, for anyone who didn't get the obvious, the whole point of that pic was that it's a Holland & Holland of all things (and I still think a good looking piece). When I found that, I thought well, this is one argument I'll win for sure NOW.

..that worked really well didn't it..

quote:

Originally posted by Shack:

quote:

Most of these colleagues have never been out of the South, and truly believe the South is Gonna Rise Agin.

That's not true. I have been out of the South...

Seriously, for anyone who didn't get the obvious, the whole point of that pic was that it's a Holland & Holland of all things (and I still think a good looking piece). When I found that, I thought well, this is one argument I'll win for sure NOW...that worked really well didn't it..

If you look at 100 H&H double rifles you may see two with a B/T forend. I would wager they will have been ordered that way by an American or Spanish customer with only shotgun experience who wrongly considers a shotgun and a double rifle the same, and they are not. Even on double barreled shotguns with B/T forends most will be Spanish or American made!

Shack we are talking about double RIFLES here not shotguns. The fact is anyone who purposely shoots a double rifle ten rounds in a row without letting the barrels cool is a fool unless his life is in danger. A double rifle is designed and regulated to fire the first shot from cool barrels, and with the second shot if needed within 5 seconds of the first, with a re-load for two more in 99% of the cases. Shotguns are a different animal all together, and if there is a need for a B/T forend to protect the fingers that is the only place it would be of any use. Shotguns, in competition or pass shooting of driven birds does get the barrels so hot that most use a glove on the left hand of a right handed shooter. A double rifle rarely gets hot enough to burn a shooters hands.

Simply because a double barreled shotgun, and a double rifle both have two barrels means absolutely nothing, they are designed for two different purposes. The double rifles in large chamberings have a much sharper recoil barrel flip that a shotgun. The danger of damage is not to the forend hanger but splitting the wood down the middle length wise along the forend iron. The grain in the wood of the forend runs lengthwise and with the fingers wrapped around the forend without grasping the barrels as well can split the wood over time. When this happens it leaves the rifle unusable because there is nothing to hold the forend iron to the forend hook. The rifle will fall apart when opened for a re-load. As Dave says it is your money and you may choose what ever you want. He is 100% correct in that statement!

If you look at all the 200 yr old makers of double rifles catalogs you will never see a beaver tail forend, unless it is special order, and if it is, it will usually be for an American or Spanish customer!

................................................ .................

OK, that does a good job of explaining it. I get it about the wood splitting. But, and I don't want to belabor this, it really wasn't a concern with me about the barrels getting hot or burning my hand. I know that's not a problem with double rifles because of the limited shooting.

Although, fwiw I have experienced a burnt hand with a Browing sxs shotgun that even had the BT forearm. The thing was, no matter how you held it there was no way to keep your fingers from touching somewhat the barrels. And during a hot dove shoot, I mean a whole box of shells in a couple minutes, you know how I had to open the action?

I had to use a cloth to hold the muzzles of all things and leverage it open from there. I quickly got enough of that nonsense and took the little 20 ga double back to the truck and got out my trusty Win Model 12 to finish the shoot, and that was that. I sold that sxs not long after that. I considered shooting a thing like that counter productive.

But I know all that's no big deal with a double rifle.

I think where I was coming from on this were other directions. One, I believe the BT or semi-BT looks better than the splinter and I prefer holding on to a piece of wood rather than the metal. For reasons that don't necessarily have a logical explanation.

But, thanks guys. You've convinced me to pass on that $189,000 H&H...

quote:

Originally posted by Shack:
I believe the BT or semi-BT looks better than the splinter.

You don't happen to be an Major League Baseball Umpire by any chance do you? Those guys are always in need of new glasses as well!!