I wanted to throw out a question to the guys with experience. Bear in mind, we are talking about buffalo only. Because of their huge bulk, elephants are in a different category.

We often talk about "stopping" rifles. I have always been confused by that term. I'd wager that with a brain shot, even a lowly 270 would be a stopping rifle. What I am asking is there a caliber that will put a stop to a buffalo charge right now even without a central nervous system hit? For example, while we know that old Pondoro was prone to exaggeration from time-to-time, he claims to have stopped a charging wounded buffalo with a .375 solid with a shot to the center of his chest "as tho there had been a steel hawser stretched across his path". Is that even possible? Would a 470 or a 500 do it? How about a .577?

quote:

What I am asking is there a caliber that will put a stop to a buffalo charge right now even without a central nervous system hit?

Nothing. In my limited experience, it depends on the buffalo. Sometimes a single shot from a 375 to the heart drops them and others, multiple kill shots from anything from the 375 up fails to stop them. But if I could add one recipe that certainly helps is a properly constructed bullet of at least 40 cal, high SD driven as fast as you can push it

quote:

Originally posted by jorge:

quote:

What I am asking is there a caliber that will put a stop to a buffalo charge right now even without a central nervous system hit?

But if I could add one recipe that certainly helps is a properly constructed bullet of at least 40 cal, high SD driven as fast as you can push it

Thats exactly the same Peter Dafner was telling me. He said .416 (Rem or rigby) is great with barnes X (TSX) on buffalo.

My fullhouse 460WM with tBBC worked great too...

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Bush:
I wanted to throw out a question to the guys with experience. Bear in mind, we are talking about buffalo only. Because of their huge bulk, elephants are in a different category.

We often talk about "stopping" rifles. I have always been confused by that term. I'd wager that with a brain shot, even a lowly 270 would be a stopping rifle. What I am asking is there a caliber that will put a stop to a buffalo charge right now even without a central nervous system hit? For example, while we know that old Pondoro was prone to exaggeration from time-to-time, he claims to have stopped a charging wounded buffalo with a .375 solid with a shot to the center of his chest "as tho there had been a steel hawser stretched across his path". Is that even possible? Would a 470 or a 500 do it? How about a .577?

Dave,

If you have the chance, take a look at one of Aaron Neilson's latest DVDs - number IV I believe.

In it, he and his PH are being charged by a Cape buffalo. Aaron nails it with his V-C 577NE as the Cape buffalo takes aim for his PH.

As I watch it, it was a shot from the 577 that turned him away from the PH at the last minute - but I will let you be the judge and whether that is so and whether a smaller caliber would have done the same.

As others have said, Buff can react unpredictably when hit. Shoot one with a 375 and it may drop, and the next one will take 7 or 8 rounds of 458 to put it to sleep. That being said, I'd sure feel more comfortable in a Buff charge with my 577 in my hands than a 375, for sure!

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Originally posted by Safarischorsch:

quote:

Originally posted by jorge:

quote:

What I am asking is there a caliber that will put a stop to a buffalo charge right now even without a central nervous system hit?

But if I could add one recipe that certainly helps is a properly constructed bullet of at least 40 cal, high SD driven as fast as you can push it

Thats exactly the same Peter Dafner was telling me. He said .416 (Rem or rigby) is great with barnes X (TSX) on buffalo.

My fullhouse 460WM with tBBC worked great too...

I had the opportunity to speak with Randy Brooks about that very same issue. When they were testing the TSX, they were using a 416 with both 350 and 400 gr bullets and it was his observation the buffalo reacted more to the 350gr traveling much faster. Speed kills baby...

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Originally posted by Biebs:
As others have said, Buff can react unpredictably when hit. Shoot one with a 375 and it may drop, and the next one will take 7 or 8 rounds of 458 to put it to sleep. That being said, I'd sure feel more comfortable in a Buff charge with my 577 in my hands than a 375, for sure!

Spoken like a man with a .577

Dave, yup, I'm sold...easier than one would think to shoot comfortably, and still be able to carry around on a hunt.

I dunno...I find that either an RPG or a 40mm Bofors Oerlikon or pom-pom all work pretty well...if you're careful to put them in the right place.

My Dad spent some time in the South Pacific during the little unpleasantness in the 1940's as executive officer on a landing ship. He said the Oerlikon was a real effective stopper on flying fish once you learned to lead them properly!

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Thats exactly the same Peter Dafner was telling me. He said .416 (Rem or rigby) is great with barnes X (TSX) on buffalo.

Correct.
Peter is an great PH.
We are often on safari, specally on buffalo.
Peter used an .500 as I and he had stopped more than 2 dozend of "black deaths" at closed range.

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Bush:
I wanted to throw out a question to the guys with experience. Bear in mind, we are talking about buffalo only. Because of their huge bulk, elephants are in a different category.

We often talk about "stopping" rifles. I have always been confused by that term. I'd wager that with a brain shot, even a lowly 270 would be a stopping rifle. What I am asking is there a caliber that will put a stop to a buffalo charge right now even without a central nervous system hit? For example, while we know that old Pondoro was prone to exaggeration from time-to-time, he claims to have stopped a charging wounded buffalo with a .375 solid with a shot to the center of his chest "as tho there had been a steel hawser stretched across his path". Is that even possible? Would a 470 or a 500 do it? How about a .577?

Dave, IMO, nothing short of a 3.5 inch rocket launcher can be depended on to stop a concentrated charge of a cape buffalo if the CNS is not hit!
To show you how unpredictable they are, let me say the only one shot kills I experienced on cape buffalo have been with a 375H&H with a 300 gr Nosler Partition @ 2450 fps, shot at around 70 yds. All others have taken at least three shots regardless of range, caliber or bullet type up to and including a 577NE, if the CNS was not hit.

Ask Butch Searcy if a shoulder shot with a 577NE will drop them in their tracks, and he will tell you not all the time for sure. He shot one from about 20 yds right through the boiler room with a 577Ne, and the buff took off like he was missed all together.

The only thing that will put them down for the count reliably with one shot is a CNS hit no matter the chambering!

……………………………………………..However opinions vary!

It's a good question Dave but I don't know if there is an absolute answer. I think a non CNS hit depends on many things such as did the bullet penetrate the heart and if so what part, lower, upper, arteries above the heart. What cycle was the heart in when the bullet did it's damage, thereby affecting blood pressure to the brain, etc. Probably a discussion better handled by one of our Doc's here than an old fighter pilot like me!

I still prefer to have the 500 in hand instead of a 375. Someone had a great signature line that I saw a few days back but I can't find it now. It went something like: "Placement of the hole is most important, Size of the properly placed hole is a close second".

In Aaron's DVD that Paul refers to, it does appear to me that the 577 hit on the shoulder turned the buff away from the PH. I've shot Buff with a 416 look at me like, "Is that all you've got?". Aaron's bull looked more like, "Damn, that thing hurts. I'm gonna head over this way for a bit!".

The term "stopping rifle/cartridge" does not necessarily mean dropping the animal in its' tracks, IMO, but rather stopping the charge/aggressive behavior. Turning a charging animal meets my criteria. Dissuading the animal from its intended destructive path and making it instead decide to go away from the big hurt works for me, and I'll take that option every time. For me that translates into a 500 NE in a double or .458 in a bolt action.

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Originally posted by LionHunter:
The term "stopping rifle/cartridge" does not necessarily mean dropping the animal in its' tracks, IMO, but rather stopping the charge/aggressive behavior. Turning a charging animal meets my criteria. Dissuading the animal from its intended destructive path and making it instead decide to go away from the big hurt works for me, and I'll take that option every time. For me that translates into a 500 NE in a double or .458 in a bolt action.

LionHunter, I agree with you 100% on your definition of "STOPPING" a charge, being turning or killing the animal and in my opinion, either one is certainly preferable to the alternative!

Here we are talking about Cape Buffalo, and in my experience once they decide to take you on, they will usually not be turned unless broken down enough to go down or be killed outright.
I know most folks call fu fu when anyone quotes P. Capstick, but he said something about cape buffalo I find to be absolutely true! He said “ Once a cape buffalo puts together a concentrated charge, your options are wonderfully simplified, either you kill him, or he will kill you!“ I believe that is most often the case, and thank God it is rare!

……………………………………………………………..

I have personally seen a buffalo take two 500 gr .470 NE Barnes X to the chest right where the neck meets the trunk. He took both rounds one from my PH and one from me almost simultaneously as he rose to charge at about 15 to 20 yards. The two entry holes were less than an inch apart both bullets penetrated through chest cavity and wound up in the flanks ripping holes in the heart and lungs.

The only effect it had on that bull was to accelerate him he didn't even flinch. I stopped him with my next shot which broke his neck.

So that bull soaked up a simultaneous 10,000 Ft lbs of energy and over 1,000 combined grains of energy and two bullets equaling about .948 combined diameter all at once to the body and he wasn't "stopped" by it.

I'm not sure what would have done the job beside better shot placement which would have broken some serious bone or disrupted the CNS.

A good friend of mine who has killed somewhere in vicinity of ten buffalo is a .500 Jeffery man and claims that once you get to that power level there is a big difference in shot reaction from the .470/.458 and down power level of rounds.

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Originally posted by surestrike:
A good friend of mine ... is a .500 Jeffery man and claims that once you get to that power level there is a big difference in shot reaction from the .470/.458 and down power level of rounds.

+1 for the '0.5 and over calibers' for STOPPING a charge, especially when there is time for only ONE last desperate shot.

Dave, good little discussion.

Buffalo Only.

Been in a few scrapes with them, oh god, it has to be a sin that I love to shoot buffalo so much! I know I am going to hell for that affliction, even obsession, oh well. I don't know where it comes from, can't explain it, just something about them I suppose. And it don't have to be capes to be exciting, I find those Australian buff exciting too! Bison are right there with the best of them for being tough as hell, so don't discount our own either!

They are TANKS to put it simply and can soak up common bullets like a sponge.

So far in my observations there are a few factors that make a difference

1. Caliber does make a difference.
2. Bullet! Of course!
3. With a Proper Bullet ONLY--They react to Velocity!

Without velocity, Caliber is your ticket.

Some great points made by some of you that need to be Hi Lighted again.

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As I watch it, it was a shot from the 577 that turned him away from the PH at the last minute

This is a combination of Caliber & Bullet. .585 BBW#13s.

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When they were testing the TSX, they were using a 416 with both 350 and 400 gr bullets and it was his observation the buffalo reacted more to the 350gr traveling much faster

This is a combination of good bullet and Velocity at work! True as well.

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Ask Butch Searcy if a shoulder shot with a 577NE will drop them in their tracks, and he will tell you not all the time for sure. He shot one from about 20 yds right through the boiler room with a 577Ne, and the buff took off like he was missed all together.

While I don't know for sure, I would place a few bets on this bullet not transferring trauma. While impressive LOOKING--the Ultra Bores are very BORING with common bullets. They are not impressive at all until you get a proper bullet moving in them, and then they are deserving of the looks!

quote:

The term "stopping rifle/cartridge" does not necessarily mean dropping the animal in its' tracks, IMO, but rather stopping the charge/aggressive behavior. Turning a charging animal meets my criteria. Dissuading the animal from its intended destructive path and making it instead decide to go away from the big hurt works for me, and I'll take that option every time. For me that translates into a 500 NE in a double or .458 in a bolt action.

I concur totally with this as well. Larger caliber, bullet design and velocity all will work to advantage to dissuade the animal from further malice!



Everyone already knows that the opening Dance is of the upmost import. That First Shot! That first shot can save your bacon, even when one follows up too quickly! I am bad about that myself, I move forward in most cases, not always the right choice.

Back in the day I was hunting buffalo in the Chete with Richard Cooke. Rich and I have been buddies since 2000. This day I had a 458 Lott, first shot a very good one at 20 yds, 500 Woodleigh Soft at 2250 fps, followed by 500 Barnes Round Nose Solids! Yes, you heard me, RN Solids! I started this dance at 20 yds, easy good hit just behind the shoulder with the Woodleigh. Buff took it normal, bucked up and was moving away. I am moving right along with him too following with two quick solids up the rear! These showed little or no effect at all, so now I have stopped and reloading the magazine with more RN Solids, during this the buff stops about 20 yds away and is turning around towards me, just about as soon as he gets his head turned to me and about to move around to face me I hit him again in the shoulders, this does cause him to stop, I hit him again, and then the third time quickly and finally he goes down. He was not able to get a head of steam up, but that was his intent. Another finishing shot ended the affair. Seven rounds total, damn what a hoot! Good fun.

A few years ago I was doing some shooting with Ross Johnston from HHK. We had 5 on quota to be mopped up and Ross and I were doing some shooting, he wanted the season to end, and I was ready to go as well, we mopped up those 5 buffalo, one good bull and 5 cows in 3 days! It was a blast. I was using the 50 B&M on it's first outing, lots of different bullets to try out, no BBW#13 then or proper NonCons, but good bullets none the less done by design from Lehigh that JD and I had been working on, all copper at the time. Again, some copper HPs backed up by an excellent copper 510 gr .500 designed to match the Barnes Banded Solid-FN. We were doing dandy until we had a good old cow out in the middle of a field, behind a piece of brush! Ross said Shoot--I said No-brush-He said Shoot-NO--He said Your bullet will do it-Ego kicked in of course, and I shot! I knew better, bullet deflected back, only caught a tiny piece of 1 lung far to the rear of the lung as you can get and still hit, 1 lung! Cow takes off, lost in herd, tiny tiny little piece of lung we found, tiny little spot of blood! We had a problem! It was near dark already and we could not track or deal with the poor light! Decided to call it a day, come back first light in the morning and follow up! Bothersome night it was, I don't care for things like that. First light we are on the ground. Ross takes off the the right, I take off to the left looking around. Not 5 minutes pass and I hear Ross take a shot 50 yds from where I am, I take off. The cow had laid up under a tree and got up to charge Ross! He was carrying a 375 HH and hit her on the bridge of the nose at about 20 yds which was enough to STOP her or DISSUADE her from taking further action, it did not take long for me to get on the scene. Ross was kind enough to let me finish the job, which I did after I figured out which end was which? Bitch was standing in the shadows and I could not tell head from ass! HEH.......

Last year everything wanted to eat me. Elephant one day, buffalo the very next morning. On the way to go to our downed elephant that morning we ran across three bulls standing out in an area. Jumping off the truck we decided to go check them out. We got to within 30 yds, and one bull just stood looking at us, quartering slightly to the right, front left to me. Using the 500 MDM and a 460 NonCon at 2450 fps I put it dead on the point of the shoulder and freed it from it's confines! Perfect hit, right on the point, buff turns to his right, it was his left shoulder, could see it was completely broken and dangling. Problem was, he only had a few steps and there was a gap between two large clumps of brush, he disappeared through the gap. Not being one willing to wait too long, we approached the gap with caution of course. My original load out was the 460 NonCon on top of two 500 gr BBW#13 Solids under. I had a good deal of confidence in the first shot, and in the 460 NonCon, so I selected another 460 and reloaded the rifle before getting to the gap in the brush. We passed just the other side of the gap, and there laid the bull on his left side, stone cold DEAD, or so it appeared, only 10 yds away or so. He was on the other side of a downed tree, and his back was against the brush, no way to approach from the rear, no shot because of the tree he was behind! He never moved, I did not see him breath, not a flinch, nothing as we approached the only angle possible, from the FRONT! Well guess what this old sly bugger did, soon as I was 5 steps dead in front of him he starts to get up. Being crippled so badly from the first shot, it gave me enough time to get the rifle lined up on his noggin just as he managed to get on his feet, I turned that 460 NonCon loose, hitting him just below his left eye, and slightly off center. The 460 hit him with such force that any intentions he had of malice were forgotten. The blades had sheared and blew a fist size hole just behind his eyes. He was done, but not before I busted him with a 500 Solid right beside and under the 460. He went down without taking a step. A case where another minute or so he would have died from the opening dance shot, but I did not allow that, so had that shot not been so devastating I might would have had a more serious issue on my hands. He was stopped by caliber, bullet, and velocity all at the same time.

My first time with proper FN solids was in Tanzania with three buffalo there in the Selous. Using again a 458 Lott, 500 Swift As at 2275 fps and backed up this time with the 500 Barnes Banded FN Solids. Very first buffalo I did not see much action from the solids as it was my most favorite old buffalo I had ever shot, an old bugger on his last legs, he went down within two steps of the Swift and that was it. Couple of days later I hit another with the Swift at about 35 yds or so broadside, good shoulder hit, bucked up and ran, but not far. He was standing at about 20 yds when I hit him with the Barnes Banded and he went down as if he was struck by lightning!!!! I had never seen any effect at all on buffalo from the Barnes RN I have shot into them, I even heard the smack and saw the reaction immediately! I was amazed at this! It did not take but about 20 minutes for me to get that same experience again! The herd had meandered right back were we were taking photos of the first buff! Within 50 yds I hit the second with the Swift and he took off, me behind, and he turned, no chance to do anything I hit him on the shoulder with the Barnes Banded and once again he dropped like a stone, reaction to the solid had been very noticeable. Bullet selection makes a hell of a difference! In fact, for more so than caliber.

Buffalo are in a class of their own, there is nothing like them on the planet. Lord knows I love to put bullet to them! Proper Bullet that is! HEH..............

Good stuff this is!
Michael

Michael excellent post!

Mike

Oh no...Michael chimed in! When do we get to page 119 on this thread!!!! :-)

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Originally posted by Biebs:
Oh no...Michael chimed in! When do we get to page 119 on this thread!!!! :-)

I like hearing Michael's hunting stories. Just need a good campfire and some beer ...

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Originally posted by Biebs:
Oh no...Michael chimed in! When do we get to page 119 on this thread!!!! :-)

Do you really think that I will let you get away with so little??? Only 119 Pages? Give me a break!

It's one of my favorite topics, buffalo, bullets and cartridges! And you want me to keep it to a measly 119 pages?

As stated, Buff are a different catagory all together. I have opened up some of mine to find the heart shot through by more than one round and yet they were still moving and collecting bullets until they decided to lay up and die!

I'm not sure how many I've killed over the years - fewer than Saeed for sure - but only two of them dropped to the shot, one a cow and the other an old bull. All the rest took multiple shots, as if they could collect a deposit refund for each of the bullets they absorbed.

Once a wounded Buff turns to face you, you'd better start shooting fast and accurately with good bullets (like the BBW #13), because he has decided to come for you and won't be deterred until you've done for him. I've used a .416Rem in either a Remington Custom Shop 700 or Winchester Custom Shop Mdl. 70 on all my Buff.

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Do you really think that I will let you get away with so little??? Only 119 Pages? Give me a break!

LOL!!! Here we go again! :-)

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Originally posted by Biebs:

LOL!!! Here we go again! :-)

We could always stir up a few Sabatti threads to amuse you Biebs!

I suppose it is simply a matter of semantics, but I personally consider “STOPING” and “TURNING” to be two distinctly different things. The distinction between the two, IMO “STOPING” is Game over and danger gone. “Turning” does stop the charge, but leaves a real danger if the turning leaves a follow-up that must be executed in heavy bush!

SO, when one reads one of my posts and you see the word STOPING RIFLE I mean a rifle most likely to kill the animal before it gets to me or someone else in my party. Especially in the case of cape buffalo or lion. IMO the stopping rifle starts at 450, and ends at what ever you can shoot quickly and accurately! Especially with cape buffalo, or lion I don’t think I would want to depend on turning an animal at close range, I want to put his lights out!

……………………………………………………………………………………….

Great thread topic, one most debated amognst myself and my two neighbouring buffalo/Oxen operators.

(If you think that a wound-up buff is hard to stop, you should see a bullet perforated wild Oxen !).

Some excellent responses from some as well, it's not hard from these posts to read between the lines and see those who have experienced the unpleasant nature of a determined charge.

I totally agree that .45+ cal should be the starting point.
One of my neighbours, who relies on a .375 has had numerous close calls and failed attampts at stopping in-comings including shooting one through the nasal cavity off the end of the muzzle, whilst laying on his back on the ground as the buff attempted to grind him into the ground with its knees. This was after an attempted stopping shot failed (.375).
This same p.h has since up-guned to a 500/416 double.

I have (with good fortune) stopped, and/or veered, a combined 14 charges from buffalo and Oxen, all with a .458 Lott and various 500gn projectiles.
I agree 100% with michael458's response that projectile quality does make a difference and also that with a good quality projectile that can withstand it that velocity does effect them and certainly makes a difference in these circumstances.

Years ago I had a client from N.Z make an unfortunate shot whilst a bull was feeding and walking which resulted in the shot going right into the middle of the gut.
The buff ran off into tall grass as twylight decended upon us.Holding a flashlight in my left hand whilst gripping the flashlight and barrel I followed that bull into head-high grass.
He stood up on me at about 10yds and all I could make out was a silhuette (sp ?).
I fired and thankfully he went the other way as I was blinded by the muzzle blast.
The follwing day, shoulder to shoulder with my hunter we tracked that bull deeper into the tall grass.
He stood and rushed us from 10 - 15yds on three seperate occasions.
Client hunter was shooting a .470 double i with my Lott.
There was a definite and perceived difference in reaction from the bull between being hit by either cartridges.
He almost made it through our ranks at one stage but was finally felled with a shot to the neck.
This obstinate bull absorbed 15 rounds in total.

This bull in particular showed a profound reaction to each hit from the lott and simply turned away from each from the 470.

In 2012 onwards I will be using a .500 M.D.M Ultra mag, a .500 NE double and .458 Lott.
One of my neighbours has stepped up from a .416 Rigby after two years use to a .458Lott, and as mentioned previously my other neighbour has gone to a 500/416.

For me, give me .45cal +, a damn good bullet and at least 2200 - 2300fps and I'm good to go.