OK, so what do you guys get for groups and shooting point of aim on your dbl rifles?

Boddington says "minute of grapefruit" at 100yds. Say 5". Or may be even 6 or 7" might well be acceptable.

Damn DRs are expensive, even the "cheap" ones. Getting one that won't shoot to point of aim and a reasonable group would be more than disheartening.

We all know where this is going but you get the idea. I am guessing the white center is 3" across on these targets. So most of the Sabattis are shooting within 3 to 5 inches from POA at 50 meters and some much better than that. Two shot groups for one right and one left are typically 3" or so. I know what the guns are for but wondered just how good the the other and more expensive DRs shoot?

Is this good or bad? Seems unacceptable to me, but what do you think? Factory targets seem to be the only way to guess just how they will shoot once you leave the store.



Nice!



Mike's 25 yard actual target:


And his exceptional 50m factory test target:

I'm new to double rifles but old hand with bolts, lever actions, pumps, autos and muzzleloaders (flintlocks) as well as reloading.

A couple of observations then my opinion (and we know what opinions are worth):

Most (not all) of the great groups shot with non-doubles are from a well padded, sturdy rests. Nothing wrong with that, we all want to see what our rifles/handloads can do undeer the best of circumstances.

Most (not all) of the great groups are the results of carefully developed handloads. Seating depth, powder type, weight; bullet brand, type, weight; etc all adjusted and changed to get that magic group from the sturdy bench rest.

Out of a single barrel.

Having said that, most of my deer camp crew are happy with 2"-3" groups at 100 yards from their 30-30s, 35Rems, 308s and 30-06s as long as they are "in the black". Can't argue with success and not one has wounded a deer or needed a second shot at any distance in my 40 plus years of hunting with them.

With all of that as some of my "observations", here are my opinions:

With doubles, I get the impression that not quite as much time, effort and variability is expended in developing such loads. Not because of disinterest but because it is exponentially more difficult since you have to do load work up for a good group with each barrel and also with both barrels. After a while of this trial and error, "good enough" becomes good enough. Not a knock on anyone - I am reasonably certain that tack-driving can be done with aggressive load work up in most doubles (not "every" since not every rifle is capable of that anyway). But, like real-life deer hunting in my part of the world where 150 yards is a loooooong shot, the 2"-3" in the black is good enough at the ranges most doubles get used.

These pages are FILLED with examples of doubles taking duiker to eland at far greater distances and with exceptional accuracy - proof that it can be done and done regularly.

Having said all of that, here are some of my real-life targets at 50 yards. These are my first shots with my new 600 NE double shooting 750-900 grain bullets.

The smaller groups (0.5" and 0.6") are "good enough" for my purposes with a 600NE double and I will probably not do much further laod development for those particular bullets. The larger groups (1.6") - maybe.

I guess I don't understand this thread. The Subject is DR groups ie. double rifle groups. This means THE GUN, not the combination of you waving a 10 pound gun around, off hand, at 50 or even 100 yards. So, if it is THE GUN, then eliminate the other variables. Both my SxS doubles have scopes and can shoot 2-3" groups at 50 yards from a bench. Shots from the same barrel will generally be touching. I know where both shoot at 100 yards with the same load. I have posted targets here previously.
My load development is NOT "out of a single barrel" neither is my load development "you have to do load work up for a good group with each barrel and also with both barrels." My load development is for "regulation" purposes". When I test multiple shots from the same barrel they have always been touching or extremely close.
If I ever get a 50 yard shot at a Buff or ele, and a rest is available, I can guarantee you that I will use it. I have no desire to lose several thousand dollars in trophy fees (not to mention a wounded animal) just so I can claim on AR that I shot it "offhand".
Just my 2 cents! Peter.

Inaccurate guns don't interest me. What I need to know is just how accurate a DR really is for my own requirements.

Trick with a DR is so few in comparison have a lot of experience with them to know what they should do. Obviously Paul's 1" groups will do just fine

I was thinking 1 or 2" groups at 25 yards and shooting POA would be just the ticket.

Paul? Have you shot your Sabatti for groups and regulation yet? I would be really interested in your thoughts on that rifle as a shooter.

Peter? The question is more specific to the Sabatti DR and asking the experiences of other long term DR shooters.

I don't plan on shooting a DR past 25 yards on game. I don't mind working up a load that shoots where I want. But I have built hundred of guns over the years and know some are just better than others, no particular reason why some times. I have found it better to walk away and start over if you need more than the gun will give easily.

Are the Sabbati factory targets at 50 yards typical targets from a dbl...no matter the price?

What I can shoot off hand at 25 yards with a rifle is about the same as I shoot with a pistol. Sounds like a decent DR will hold one hole groups (say 3 from one side) at that distance if the shooter can.

So how much variation between barrels is acceptable?

RDB,

No havent gotten upstate to try out the Sabatti. I thought today would have been the day, but duty called and I was tied up even though wasnt supposed to be.

Maybe tomorrow and if so, i will speifically address your questions related to the Sabatti.

Stay well,
Paul

MY apologies rdb. I did not know that it was specific to Sabatti DR's. My doubles (SxS) are a Kreighoff in 500/416 and a M K Owen in 450 x 3 1/4.
I also have a Tikka O/U in 9.3x74R. Still waiting for my 500NE!
Peter.

Paul, nice groups! Now try moving back to 10 yards!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

quote:

Originally posted by Biebs:
Paul, nice groups! Now try moving back to 10 yards!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Then I won't be able to reach the Target with the hole punch!

Peter I was trying to get guys like you, that have some experience with proven DRs to offer an opinion on your test targets and how well you expect your guns to shoot.

RDB

Why only 25 yards ?

If you want to limit yourself, limit yourself to 100 yards.


I have found very few doubles that won't shoot - IF the time is put into them to work out the right load.

And where the odd one doesn't shoot that well, then there is always a reason for it - loose rib, worn barrel, unsoldered barrels, rust in the ribs, chamber problems - and of course the bloody owner just can't shoot the damn thing for shit.


As Peter said so well "This means THE GUN, not the combination of you waving a 10 pound gun around, off hand, at 50 or even 100 yards. So, if it is THE GUN, then eliminate the other variables."

Had a guy who owned a 450/400, said it didn't shoot, both my mate and I picked it up and bang, bang, 2 Shots SxS at 50. Second gun of his, loaded up 10 rounds, worked out what load shot in it and bang, no problems.


All my guns (DR's) with the right load will go SxS, 2 - 4" WITH THE RIGHT PERSON SHOOTING IT (which isn't always me !!!).

quote:

Originally posted by 500N:
RDB

Why only 25 yards ?

If you want to limit yourself, limit yourself to 100 yards.

For the same reason you start at 25 yds to sight in a scope on a bolt rifle. The adjustments are easier to make. Then the fine tuning takes place at 100, or 300 yds or where ever you want the Point blank to be!

With a double rifle if it regulates properly at 25 yds it will regulate properly at 100 yds! Shooting off hand, I doubt one in 50 shooters can duplicate that 25 , or 100 yd group at more than 25 yds. A double that is properly regulated at 25 yds off the bags will shoot quality hunting groups Off the sticks on game at more than 100 yds!

The practice for charges should always be off hand starting with a loaded rifle, at 25 yds, with two shots fired, and re-load, and two more all timed, and all four shots printing on a 8" target, with any shot not within the 8" black bulls eye not counted. Very few if any charges start at more than 25 yds,other than with lion, and anyone is hard pressed to shoot four shots fast into less than 8" at 25 yds with any type rifle.

However an 8" four shot group, in the kill zone,in five seconds or under will likely stop what ever you are shooting at before he gets to you! If you shoot all four in less than five seconds with that re-load in the middle and all are in the 8" black at 25 yds you are ready for simba,if not you need more four shot practice!

Practice for hunting in general, you can shoot at verious ranges from all sorts of hunting positions, and off hand, as well as off the sticks.

quote:

I have found very few doubles that won't shoot - IF the time is put into them to work out the right load.

And where the odd one doesn't shoot that well, then there is always a reason for it - loose rib, worn barrel, unsoldered barrels, rust in the ribs, chamber problems - and of course the bloody owner just can't shoot the damn thing for shit.

.

The above is gospel! You must do your regulating load work before anything positive can be expected, and learn to shoot the "DAMN THING"!

quote:

Originally posted by CCMDoc:
Having said that, most of my deer camp crew are happy with 2"-3" groups at 100 yards. Can't argue with success and not one has wounded a deer or needed a second shot at any distance in my 40 plus years of hunting with them.

And just about the time I thought I had heard it all!!

Paul, are there any deer where you hunt?

quote:

Originally posted by DoubleDon:

quote:

Originally posted by CCMDoc:
Having said that, most of my deer camp crew are happy with 2"-3" groups at 100 yards. Can't argue with success and not one has wounded a deer or needed a second shot at any distance in my 40 plus years of hunting with them.

And just about the time I thought I had heard it all!!

Paul, are there any deer where you hunt?

Well ... I never said any deer were actually hit ...

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:

quote:

Originally posted by 500N:
RDB

Why only 25 yards ?

If you want to limit yourself, limit yourself to 100 yards.

For the same reason you start at 25 yds to sight in a scope on a bolt rifle. The adjustments are easier to make. Then the fine tuning takes place at 100, or 300 yds or where ever you want the Point blank to be!

With a double rifle if it regulates properly at 25 yds it will regulate properly at 100 yds! Shooting off hand, I doubt one in 50 shooters can duplicate that 25 , or 100 yd group at more than 25 yds. A double that is properly regulated at 25 yds off the bags will shoot quality hunting groups Off the sticks on game at more than 100 yds!

The practice for charges should always be off hand starting with a loaded rifle, at 25 yds, with two shots fired, and re-load, and two more all timed, and all four shots printing on a 8" target, with any shot not within the 8" black bulls eye not counted. Very few if any charges start at more than 25 yds,other than with lion, and anyone is hard pressed to shoot four shots fast into less than 8" at 25 yds with any type rifle.

However an 8" four shot group, in the kill zone,in five seconds or under will likely stop what ever you are shooting at before he gets to you! If you shoot all four in less than five seconds with that re-load in the middle and all are in the 8" black at 25 yds you are ready for simba,if not you need more four shot practice!

Practice for hunting in general, you can shoot at verious ranges from all sorts of hunting positions, and off hand, as well as off the sticks.

quote:

I have found very few doubles that won't shoot - IF the time is put into them to work out the right load.

And where the odd one doesn't shoot that well, then there is always a reason for it - loose rib, worn barrel, unsoldered barrels, rust in the ribs, chamber problems - and of course the bloody owner just can't shoot the damn thing for shit.

.

The above is gospel! You must do your regulating load work before anything positive can be expected, and learn to shoot the "DAMN THING"!

OK, I misunderstood the 25 yards point.

Personally, if regulating a DR with loads, IMHO it should be done with a standing supported rest
- if all you have is a camera bipod to rest the rear of your forearm, then that will suffice but in preference, a rest that you rest your elbow, can lean into and push your waist / left leg against helps enormously.

And of course using a white dot at the 6 o'clock position instead of black 8" circle as the aiming point makes a hell of a lot of difference as well. I have noticed that groups improve substantially when using a white dot.

.

quote:

Originally posted by 500N:
OK, I misunderstood the 25 yards point.

Personally, if regulating a DR with loads, IMHO it should be done with a standing supported rest
- if all you have is a camera bipod to rest the rear of your forearm, then that will suffice but in preference, a rest that you rest your elbow, can lean into and push your waist / left leg against helps enormously.

Absolutely! The standing bench while holding the rifle, resting the back of your forehand on the bags, and your elbow on the bench with an elbow pad is certainly the best way to shoot the double rifle for group. This allows the rifle to recoil naturally as if shot off hand!

quote:

And of course using a white dot at the 6 o'clock position instead of black 8" circle as the aiming point makes a hell of a lot of difference as well. I have noticed that groups improve substantially when using a white dot.

.

As far as the dot color that is a personal choice, and one works as well as the other in my experience! What ever floats your canoe!

Own four doubles, two Baikals, one Searcy and one Chapuis. If you want accuracy buy a Baikal. Mine will shoot 4 shots (2 from each barrel) under 1 1/4 inches at 50 yards. But in fairness have never installed a scope on the Chapuis or Chapuis while the Baikal has a Ultradot on it. They all work fine and are more accurate than I can shoot offhand, what more do you need?

In my limited experience with doubles, rifles that can be user regulated like the Baikals and Valmets are more accurate than "fixed" regulated rifles.

RDB,
Which double are you considering and what will you be using it for? Scoped or unscoped?

My K 450-400 shoots 1 inch at 50 yards; easily the most accurate DR I have ever fired. I believe the current standard is 2" at 50 for factory regulation. I had a Greifelt .500 a few years ago that wouldn't shoot 6 inches at 50 and I tried many loads and bullets in it. I also have built 3 of them and when I get 2 bullets within 2 inches of one another at 50 yards, I quit. Of course, when you are in the field shooting off hand, or over sticks at best, well, you get the picture... I once had a Savage 12 ga that a friend of mine traded me out of and he cut the barrels off to 20 inch and put sights on. It would shoot slugs touching at 40 yards. I still can't believe it.

quote:

Originally posted by dpcd:
My K 450-400 shoots 1 inch at 50 yards; easily the most accurate DR I have ever fired. I believe the current standard is 2" at 50 for factory regulation. I had a Greifelt .500 a few years ago that wouldn't shoot 6 inches at 50 and I tried many loads and bullets in it. I also have built 3 of them and when I get 2 bullets within 2 inches of one another at 50 yards, I quit. Of course, when you are in the field shooting off hand, or over sticks at best, well, you get the picture... I once had a Savage 12 ga that a friend of mine traded me out of and he cut the barrels off to 20 inch and put sights on. It would shoot slugs touching at 40 yards. I still can't believe it.

My old greener SxS, the crappy Boxlock Empire model was the first gun I shot with in Australia and used to take it piig hunting.

It shoots accurately (or did) the old Brenneke Slugs out to 100 yards no worries.

quote:

My K 450-400 shoots 1 inch at 50 yards; easily the most accurate DR I have ever fired. I believe the current standard is 2" at 50 for factory regulation. I had a Greifelt .500 a few years ago that wouldn't shoot 6 inches at 50 and I tried many loads and bullets in it. I also have built 3 of them and when I get 2 bullets within 2 inches of one another at 50 yards, I quit.

Great info, exactly what I was looking for, thank you!

Next question is what is acceptable for point of aim compared to point of impact?

Just dug out a few old sighting targets, all shot at 50 yds.

7x65R, scoped, one shot from each barrel, .8".

400-350 NE, scoped, 2shots from each barrel, 1.35".

470 NE, open sights, one shot from each barrel 1.25"

360 No2 NE, open sights, one shot from each barrel, 1.1".

I've shot another 360 N02 NE which produced similar group size.

At 50 yards I guess I'd be ok with a 2" group, but I'd really be trying hard to get it down around an inch or so. Not always possible to achieve though.

5seventy: You own for double rifles including a bloody .360 No. 2? Can I be your adopted son from America?

By the way, had a very nice couple from Queensland in our store (Sportsmans Warehouse) yesterday. They were lovely folks and entertaining as hell, telling us all about bullbars on their vehicles and baramundi fishing. I sent them up to Crater Lake National Park with instructions to take a fishing pole on the boat tour to Wizard Island.

http://www.google.com/imgres?i...DaAg&ved=0CEYQ9QEwBQ

Do you guys shoot the second barrel within 3 seconds of shooting the first one ?

quote:

Originally posted by bobby van der Putten:
Do you guys shoot the second barrel within 3 seconds of shooting the first one ?

No, not always, when testing a DR, I shoot the second barrel when I feel comfortable and most importantly, when the sight picture is exactly the same as the first barrel was.

Otherwise you are not testing the true accuracy / regulation of the gun.

This can be seen by shooting a few pairs in the morning with the sun in front of you and then in the afternoon with the sun behind you. You can get a different sight picture just because of the sun (this can of course be mitigated as much as possible by filing the sight at a better angle).

.

Kreighoff 450/400-3" off sticks at 50 yards.

quote:

Originally posted by Bill/Oregon:
5seventy: You own for double rifles including a bloody .360 No. 2? Can I be your adopted son from America?

By the way, had a very nice couple from Queensland in our store (Sportsmans Warehouse) yesterday. They were lovely folks and entertaining as hell, telling us all about bullbars on their vehicles and baramundi fishing. I sent them up to Crater Lake National Park with instructions to take a fishing pole on the boat tour to Wizard Island.

Bill,
Wow, that sure looks like a beautiful place!

I don't have the 360 No2 anymore, it was sold some years back. A great rifle and a great cartridge.
That one was a Joseph Lang PHV1 Webley, and the other 360 No2 I mentioned was a Gibbs Webley Screw Grip which was owned by a mate.

450/400