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First off let me state up front that I've seen all the objections to O/U rifles for DG hunting, so save it. I know there's got to be a good reason, but why is it that double rifles of two different calibers always have the biggest on top?? Seems like having the smaller, presumably more accurate barrel on top would allow for less difference between line-of-bore and line-of-sight, especially with a scope. Also, how are such rifles regulated?? How accurate are really good ones, like a Heym?? Seems like a .300 Magnum/9.3X74 combination, if both barrels were regulated to the same POI at 100 yards, would let one cover about 98% of all hunting chores on everything bigger than rabbits and smaller than Cape Buffalo, and wouldn't actually leave you helpless on buffalo in close. "If you’re innocent why are you taking the Fifth Amendment?”- Donald Trump | ||
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I guess the firearm you describe is technicly a DOUBLE RIFLE, but IMO is more of a combination gun, than a double rifle!  The combination you are thinking of wouldn't be something I'd personally be interested in, but I suppose it could be made that way. The rifle would be better chambered for both barrels chambered for 9.3X74R. The 300mag will do nothing that the 9.3 will not do as well, but the 9.3 will do it legally, in some cases, and the 300 mag will never be legal for things like Buffalo! The 9.3's case is flanged as well, which is much better suited to double rifles, than a rimless anything.! The barrels of combo guns haveing one barrel on the bottom, and the other on the top will always have the cartridge that developes the most chamber pressure on the bottom, and the lower pressure one on the top! So, in your example, the 300 Mag would be on the bottom, and 9.3 on top. If you want two different chamberings, a better choice would be a 9.3X74R on top, and either a 450/400NE 3", or 450NE 3" on the bottom. All are flanged, and all are much lower pressure rounds, and are much better suited to a double rifle, and the game you might encounter! ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith  | |||
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Mac, Thanks, I was thinking of it as a companion piece for a .450/400 double, with the .300 giving considerably better range than the 9.3X74. "If you’re innocent why are you taking the Fifth Amendment?”- Donald Trump | |||
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Jeff A O/U with 2 different rifle calibres, called a bergstutzen if I remember correctly is somewhat popular in Germany, usually with a very small rifle calibre bbl, for foxes hares and such, and a larger calibre for cloven game and wild pigs. I would not want a "big calibre" bergstutzen for DG. Too much confusion when loading under duress. A 9,3x74R O/U is a perfect hunting rifle for all but the longest range shots. I have taken game out to a little over 300 yards with my SxS 9,3x74R. The 9,3x74R is IMHO by far and away the best calibre for a double rifle under 40 cal. It would not be my forst choice for a sheep or antelope rifle, but it works great for most everything else. DOUBLE RIFLE SHOOTERS SOCIETY | |||
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NE 450#2 has good info for you on the bergstutzen. The idea with this is to combine one rifle for two or more sizes of game as is with so many germanic combo guns. Rarely is the smaller caliber rifle barrel over .22 cal and the larger cal is a med cal for your normal European big game animals. With the bergstutzens that I've seen they normally do have the smaller cal barrel on top but quite often it is concealed inside or incorperated into the rib and makes for a little bit of an unusual looking double. Blaser did offer at one time and may still what they called a gross caliber bergstutzen wich was pritty much as you described but I haven't seen one for awhile and they may have seen no more favour with the German hunters than the AR members with your idea. Another example of this that I have seen is with the kugeldrilling wich is a drilling with three rifle barrels. I have seen a drilling by Hambrusch that had .470x.470 with a .375 barrel underneath. Also another one of Karl Hauptmanns drillings with all three barrels parallel. The two outside barrels were .470 and inside was 8x75RS. In Ferlach nearly anything is possible. The idea of a small cal bergstutzen makes sense to me but when you go to the trouble of having a specialty large cal double built why not just have a two barrel set built in your choice of calabers. DRSS NRA life AK Master Guide 124 | |||
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What I had in mind wasn't a DG rifle by any means, you're right about the possible confusion factor plus it would be essentially two single shots, with only one in even a marginal DG caliber. I was thinking more of an upsized bergstutzen, with the 9.3 offering a heavier bullet out to maybe 150 yards and the .300 offering longer range and better accuracy for delicate work, like crocs. And, in a pinch, the 9.3 would be more conforting in buffalo habitat, even if after other game, than having .300s in both barrels. Just a random, possibly dumb, thought. "If you’re innocent why are you taking the Fifth Amendment?”- Donald Trump | |||
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I'm guessing you want to scope the rifle for longer range, but at what distance do you want it regulated? Proud DRSS member | |||
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Nighthawk, This is a valid question with a combination gun with each barrel haveing different chamberings. This is valid because the two different cartridges have different trejectories. So the barrels have to be regulated to cross, at some distance. This is one of the draw backs of combination guns, they cannot be regulated to shoot paralell like a regular double rifle that has both barrels chambered the same! Most think, wrongly so, that a double rifle's barrels are regulated to cross at some distance as well, but that is not the case. The sights on a regular double rifle are regulated to be on target at a given range,just like the iron sights on a single barrel rifle, but the center of each barrel's individual group doesn't cross at any distance , but shoot paralell. Because the combination double has the be regulated to cross, makes the down range accuracy not so good with both barrels, because if you want long range accuracy of the flater trejectory chambering, the sights have to be set for that barrel. This leaves the other barrel with only guess work as to it's point of impact at anything past the corssing point! With the rifle chambered for the same cartridge in both barrels one sight will bo on the center of a composite group of both barrels no matter the distance, with simple hold over. This doesn't work with two different chamberings, after the bullets pass the crossing point for the iron sights, with the different trejectories! This may not compute to most folks, because of all the misinformation printed by so-called magazine experts, where double rifles are concerned!  ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith | |||
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Jeff Mac is correct about the trajectory issue. However you have touched upon a certain aspect of the scoped double, longer distance shooting. I have shot my 9,3x74R, on paper to 300 yards [which is why I have been able to hit game with it at that distance] and the barrels do not cross. While not as accurate as a bolt rifle on paper,at that distance, while firing both bbls, it is still plenty good for big game. However for precision shots at small targets, like a crock,s brain the first shot from the right bbl is just as accurate as any big bore bolt rifle I have fired. The samw would hold true for that forst shot on game at 300 yards. I have not found the scoped double rifle to be inferior to the scoped bolt gun, or the iron sighted double to the iron sighted rifle. In fact I have found the immediate second shot of the double to be more useful in hunting, than the larger capacity of the bolt rifle. On all 3 of mu Zim Safaris I have used a 9,3 double and a larger double [and on the trip with my wife I used 2 different larger doubles]. The only bad thing about a 9,3x74R scoped double is that you will like it so much, you will "neglect" your other rifles.  DOUBLE RIFLE SHOOTERS SOCIETY | |||
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NE 450 No2 knows where of he speaks, I know, because I've seen him shoot that little 9.3X74R double rifle!  ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith | |||
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Not to hijack, but that touches on why have the 500/416 NE? It kicks as hard as a 470 so why bother with the smaller caliber? The 500/416 is outstanding in a scoped double because the trajectory is so flat in comparison to the bigger NE cartriges. It gives the double a lot of range with a reasonably heavy bullet. It would make a good addition to a two-caliber rifle in that regard. "Experience" is the only class you take where the exam comes before the lesson. | |||
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Nitehawk, Seems to me it would be perfect if both barrels would hit the same spot at 100 yards.If you then sighted to hit about 3" high there, either barrel would be within "minute of heart shot" anywhere out to 150-175 yards, with anything further being meat for the .300. Any actual variation would be sighted in favor of the .300 barrel so you would have what should be nearly pinpoint accuracy from it, and a quality rifle should be able to put the 9.3 close. During most PG hunting seems like a quality expanding bullet in the .300 and a solid in the 9.3 would be useful. The solid gives you a sporting chance if something large and ugly takes exception to you being in his yard and would also be better than nothing as a followup on anything the .300 didn't anchor, especially if it was going away and only presented a Texas heart shot. "If you’re innocent why are you taking the Fifth Amendment?”- Donald Trump | |||
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I was certainly thinking of this as a companion to a .450/400 double, not a substitute for one. I've heard about you and that 9.3X74, and sounds like if everybody shot them like you do the gun makers could just quit making all that bolt trash altogether  Do I understand correctly, rather than sighting in on the "center of group" you have yours sighted in exactly for the right barrel, and good knowledge of where the left varies?? "If you’re innocent why are you taking the Fifth Amendment?”- Donald Trump | |||
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Mac, You stomped directly on the head of why I specified an O/U double. By regulating both barrels to print at 100 yards, the 9.3 would still be "point-blank" from the muzzle to 150-175, while the .300 would be doing what the .30 Magnums do best, reaching on out. And I understand about the lack of a rim but in the event of a failure to extract in the "PG" barrel you don't risk getting stomped or 'et, and Heym seems to be allergic to most H&H calibers. "If you’re innocent why are you taking the Fifth Amendment?”- Donald Trump | |||
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Jeff I have my 9,3 sighted in for "center of group" with both barrels. They hit close enough together for "field shooting" ie hunting out to 250 yards. If I planned on hunting something where i needed a really precision shot, like say a crock, then I would change the scope to put the right bbl right on at the necessary distance. Here is a bit if "trivia". I can use 286 Woodleigh Softs and 286 Nosler Partitions with the same powder charge with the same sight settings out to 250 yards, [the pointer Partitions shoot flatter at 300], BUT I get smaller 2 barrel groups if I put a Woodleigh in the right bbl and a Partition in the left. A lot of the time I hunt loaded up like that. Get a 9,3x74R scoped double, You will really like it. DOUBLE RIFLE SHOOTERS SOCIETY | |||
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NE450 No2, How much time and experimentation did it take to find that bit of trivia???? Jeffive, While I understand the siren call of the multiage combination guns I don’t see them as practical for the reasons that have been brought up. I think they were/are great for what they were developed. Shooting at relative close range from a stand on driven game. I would not like to be limited to a single shot rifle for hunting (this is what you have with the proposed combo rifle) I would like the option of having a back up round available. I think the 9.3X74R is one of the best medium calibers. You could always get a small bore like a 7X57Flanged. I think the idea of hunting at 300 yards or more is great if you can hit your target from a field position. I think if you can’t keep all your shots in a 6in pie plate you need to get closer. Jeffive you were asking why over and under rifles were not as popular. The main reason is they have to open to a much grater angle to get access to the bottom barrel that it makes them some what slower to reload.  Bill Member DSC,DRSS,NRA,TSRA A man who carries a cat by the tail learns something he can learn in no other way. -Mark Twain There ought to be one day - just one – when there is open season on Congressmen. ~Will Rogers~ | |||
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