I have just bought a double, and I keep reading hints about the proper way to hold and shot a double... Any tips here? Is it any different than shooting a bolt action rifle?

Barrels harmonics and the way it recoils play a key role in the way a double shoots. It has to be shot like in the field. Never rest the forend directly on a sandbag (rest the holding hand) and rest your elbows (no rear bag). Fire both bbls. in the right sequence (R/U 1st, then L/O) within 10". Let cool between strings.

Thank you, just what I needed! Do you let the forend rest directly on the tripod, or do you hold your hand between here as well? I have tried with my bolt rifles, and the tripod does not impact the POI. Andre, when you say that the rifle should be allowed to cool between strings, what do yo mean? Is a string two shots?

quote:

Originally posted by Andre Mertens:
Barrels harmonics and the way it recoils play a key role in the way a double shoots. It has to be shot like in the field. Never rest the forend directly on a sandbag (rest the holding hand) and rest your elbows (no rear bag). Fire both bbls. in the right sequence (R/U 1st, then L/O) within 10". Let cool between strings.

To start with in a heavy recoiling double you wrap your fingers up and around the barrels, otherwise you might remove the fore end if you don't. Also you ALWAYS shoot the rifle with it only touching you(r) body and not resting or touching anything else (solid) like a rest, tree, sandbag, etc.

I've always been told to pull the REAR trigger first to preclude doubling the rifle due to your trigger finger being pulled off the trigger due to recoil. This is made worse in the field in hot weather (sweaty hands) and being tired after the stalk.

In the lighter calibers the barrel hold and rear trigger first you can probably dispense with.

Hope you enjoy your new toy

Roi

quote:

Originally posted by justanothernorwegian:
Thank you, just what I needed! Do you let the forend rest directly on the tripod, or do you hold your hand between here as well? I have tried with my bolt rifles, and the tripod does not impact the POI. Andre, when you say that the rifle should be allowed to cool between strings, what do yo mean? Is a string two shots?

You keep your hand between the gun and the tripod. As I said previously the only thing that should touch the gun is you.

The "accepted" maximum shot string with a double is first barrel, second barrel, rapid reload, first barrel, second barrel as fast as possible. Then let the gun cool.

This simulates a charge stopping situation. The regulation will change as the gun heats up so shooting it "hot" isn't a good test. The rapid 4 shot sequence doesn't give enough time for the heat to affect the regulation. Of course you don't HAVE to always shoot 4 times in practice at the range

Also it's a very bad idea to just shoot one barrel until it's hot and then start shooting the other barrel. The thermal stress' incured can possibly break solder joints joining the barrels thus damaging the gun. Of course it probably won't but I wouldn't do it as (most) doubles are designed and built to be used one/two.

Roi

Andre is correct about the firing order for several reasons. The gunmakers will tell you that the correct firing order is right/left, because that is the way they are regulated. Heat affects regulation when it is generated by the combustion of the propellant, which is to say, immediately. When the first barrel is fired, it's then hot and the one next door is cold. The effect that this differential has on regulation is compensated for in the regulating process, firing in right/left order. Although the difference usually is quite small, most double rifles don't regulate exactly the same when fired in reverse order. However, with some doubles the difference is significant and is due to the reversed order of the uneven heating.

With a correctly stocked double trigger DR, shifting from front to rear for the second shot is far more natural than the reverse.

Also, one of the really nice advantages of the double rifle is the instant selection of bullet type when hunting with one barrel of soft and one of solid. Sooner or later you'll need to fire the right barrel first. If you haven't mastered firing in the correct right/left order without the risk of a double discharge, this advantage doesn't exist for you, especially when you're in front of dangerous game, as you can't risk a double discharge. That second AIMED shot may be crucial.

Each type of firearm presents a unique set of challenges to a new shooter and the double rifle is perhaps the most obtuse of all. If you can't fire the right barrel (front trigger) first with no concern whatsoever about an accidental double discharge, then you haven't mastered the double rifle yet. Learn to do it the right way the first time. It isn't difficult at all. Some folks will need to change trigger technique to keep the finger mounted on the front trigger through the recoil impulse, that's just part of the learning curve. Also, be sure not to allow the shoulder to collapse under recoil, as this can also cause the grip of the shooting hand to slip.
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"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

Well said Mark! You are the Man!

quote:

Originally posted by 400 Nitro Express:
Andre is correct about the firing order for several reasons. The gunmakers will tell you that the correct firing order is right/left, because that is the way they are regulated. Heat affects regulation when it is generated by the combustion of the propellant, which is to say, immediately. When the first barrel is fired, it's then hot and the one next door is cold. The effect that this differential has on regulation is compensated for in the regulating process, firing in right/left order. Although the difference usually is quite small, most double rifles don't regulate exactly the same when fired in reverse order. However, with some doubles the difference is significant and is due to the reversed order of the uneven heating.

With a correctly stocked double trigger DR, shifting from front to rear for the second shot is far more natural than the reverse.

Also, one of the really nice advantages of the double rifle is the instant selection of bullet type when hunting with one barrel of soft and one of solid. Sooner or later you'll need to fire the right barrel first. If you haven't mastered firing in the correct right/left order without the risk of a double discharge, this advantage doesn't exist for you, especially when you're in front of dangerous game, as you can't risk a double discharge. That second AIMED shot may be crucial.

Each type of firearm presents a unique set of challenges to a new shooter and the double rifle is perhaps the most obtuse of all. If you can't fire the right barrel (front trigger) first with no concern whatsoever about an accidental double discharge, then you haven't mastered the double rifle yet. Learn to do it the right way the first time. It isn't difficult at all. Some folks will need to change trigger technique to keep the finger mounted on the front trigger through the recoil impulse, that's just part of the learning curve. Also, be sure not to allow the shoulder to collapse under recoil, as this can also cause the grip of the shooting hand to slip.
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"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

Well 400,

I disagree with which barrel first at least in modern guns. I feel the front trigger is "more natural" at least for me. But several more experienced double rifle shooters have told me with with the harder recoiling doubles (470 and up) if you don't train yourself to use rear trigger first it's only a matter of time before you'll double the gun. Especially under adverse field conditions ie: hot sweaty hands, tired and breathing hard, etc.

I've done the test of walking briskly for roughly a mile in 90+ temperatures carrying my 500 and then shooting it with a snap cap in the second barrel and sure enough about one out of three times it "doubled" on me using the front trigger first. So My advice still stands.

BTW, one of the guys I got this advice from is Butch Searcy. So I guess by his own admission Butch has yet to master shooting a double rifle as he doubled a 470 in Africa.

OK, never shot a double rifle, so just wondering.
Many advocate always fireing the right barrel first and mention that that is how it was regulated. Well maybe in the old days where one bought the gunsmiths loads. Who does that these days. Didn't I read here on how you all can regulate your own with hand loads?

Then some say how great it is to have a choice of soft or solid first up. Sort of stuffs the must shoot right barrel first theory doesn't it?

Then this hot and cold business. What happens to the regulation when more than two shots are fired? Sort of stuffs up the must shoot right barrel first theory doesn't it?
I think I read that Bell tried both at once, and Taylor changed to rear first?

510:

Well, if it doubles on you once out of three pairs, then you obviously haven't mastered double triggers on hard kicking guns yet. Either that or the left is jarring off under the recoil of the right, which means that the weapon is unsafe. Either represents a problem that demands attention.
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"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

I don't think I would trust a gun that shot both barrels with the pull of only one trigger. That is most certainly an unsafe gun in my book. We work on many SxS shotguns with double triggers. I have come across this problem more than once and a gun that does this needs to be repaired or adjusted.

quote:

Originally posted by JAL:
OK, never shot a double rifle, so just wondering.
Many advocate always fireing the right barrel first and mention that that is how it was regulated. Well maybe in the old days where one bought the gunsmiths loads. Who does that these days. Didn't I read here on how you all can regulate your own with hand loads?

Then some say how great it is to have a choice of soft or solid first up. Sort of stuffs the must shoot right barrel first theory doesn't it?

Then this hot and cold business. What happens to the regulation when more than two shots are fired? Sort of stuffs up the must shoot right barrel first theory doesn't it?
I think I read that Bell tried both at once, and Taylor changed to rear first?

JAL, You are makeing the mistake every novice to double rifles makes! The regulation of a double rifle is a physical thing done durring the makeing of the rifle not by loading! The regulation is built into the double rifle, and what you are discribing is Working up loads, to shoot to the regulation that is already in the rifle! What you are doing is loading to duplicate the loads that were used while the regulation was being done by the barrel regulator! You do not regulate your double rifle.

400 Nitro Express, is right, the barrels are regulated by shooting strings of four rounds, two in each barrel on a target,in a sequince of RT, LFT, RT, LFT, then heating the solder, and tweeking the barrels to move them closer on the target,cooling, then shooting them again, and tweeking again till both barrels shoot side by side, at the same elevation on the target. The barrels will then place four shots fired RT, LFT, RT, LFT, into a composite group, on the target with the center of each individual barrel's group center on it's own side of the POA (paralell). Now the barrles are regulated for the load it is done with. The only way to get this rifle to shoot to regulation with your handloads is to duplicate the factory regulateing load. IOW, the regulation is in the rifle, and you will not change the regulation that is in the rifle, no matter what you do unless you get a torch, and heat the barrel's solder , and move the regulating wedges!

Some doubles will shoot OK when fireing the left barrel first on a right handed double rifle, and at very close range, like off the muzzles, it matters not. However, if you fire the left barrel first, at 100 yds, and where your next shot at 80 yds, bullet placement is ciritical, it just may make a great deal of difference. The fact is a "string" is four shots, from cool barrels. The barrels on double rifles being very thin, they heat immediately. The right barrel heating moves the left barrel, very slightly, then when the left barrel is fired, it moves back, but not as much, then the right barrel is fired again, and it moves the left again, the the left fired again finishes the sequincence. The first shot fired from the left barrel reverses the sequince, heating and warping, and most doubles will not shoot to the sights, done this way! Handloads will not change this!

You may shoot your double any way you choose, but this forum is for the exchange of information, TRUE INFORMATION, and the information 400 Nitro Expressgave you is the truth, and anything else you hear here is opinion!

The truth has been placed at your disposal, you may do as it pleases you, with that truth!

The biggest adjustent for me was wraping my fingers around the foreend and over the barrels. Never did that with a bolt rifle or semi auto where I was trained never to touch the barrel. A firm hold is important, and it helps in avoiding problems in shooting a DR.

As for preferred sequence with the triggers, it's a free country. However, both 400 and Mac are correct in the correct sequence.

From my Heym 470 Safari manual:

"For optimum grouping of the barrels, fire the right barrel (front trigger) first. Follow with the left barrel (rear trigger) within 8 seconds.

This is the method used in regulating the barrels and should be followed precisely for the best grouping"

Doubling happens, sometimes without even touching the rear trigger (what intercepting sears are for).

Even expreienced shooters have it happen to them. I know of 3 people (two of them about 3 weeks ago) who have doubled a double, but they were not shooting their own rifes at the time.

You will hear a lot about the necessity for a double to fit you, and a proper fit helps, especially with length of pull. I would think that a LOP that was too long would increase the chances of doubling, since the front trigger would be shot off the finger tip rather than the first knuckle.

A proper hold and a squeeze rather than jerking the trigger would help a great deal. Sweaty hands don't help at all, and if that is a problem, leather shooting gloves can help there.

Jim hit on the primary difficulty most people have when transitioning to double rifles. Most were taught to place the trigger about the middle of the first digit of the trigger finger. With a hard kicking double, some guys can get away with that OK, but many can't. The finger slips off during the recoil impulse causing a double discharge. It's a hard habit to break, but it can be done. In nearly twenty years of shooting double rifles almost exclusively, I've never had a double discharge.

Start with the front trigger in the crook of the first joint of the index finger so that it doesn't slip off, and experiment from there until you find what works best for you.
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"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

At 100 yards it makes a BIG difference in the zero,impact point, whatever you want to call it if I shoot the left bbl first on my Chapuis 9,3x74R.
A double rifle is not a varmint or sniper rifle.
As 400 Nitro and Mac have said, get a good bit of you trigger finger on the trigger, to the forst joint is good. Have a firm grip and maintain it through the recoil cycle. Have your front elbow pointing straight down to the ground. Do not let your shoulder collaspe.

Try to take the recoil at the waist in a straight up and down motion with as little side twisting as possible.

PS. it is the same for any hard kicking long gun.

Have a little follow through durring and just after the recoil to maintain coinsistancy. Do not release your grip and go to the second trigger [or the bolt handle for you bolt rifle trash ] too soon.

Releasing you grip too soon can cause your shoulder to collapse and your finger to slap the rear trigger, causing a double.

Lean into the recoil as wellSay 65% or so of your weight on your front foot.

I seem to remember Elmer Keith writing he pulled his big bore doubles into his shoulder with a hundred pounds of force.
This keeps your shoulder from collapsing.

To add to the dicussion, if anybody should be prone to doubling it should be me since I am a lefty and shoot right handed shotguns and DR's. As a lefty my trigger finger reaches across the second trigger to reach the first trigger. This should make the rear trigger particularly exposed and vulnerable to being slapped by a loose trigger finger.

I have the triggers twisted on my guns and rifles to make contact more fully and more comfortably but it doesn't really matter.

Even with my trigger finger reaching across the rear trigger I have never had a double on any gun or rifle. This is simply because I maintain a good grip on the double. BTW, I have no fear of using just the pad on my trigger finger on the first trigger, so long as I maintain a good grip it isn't an issue. Doesn't matter if its 110* in the Zambezi valley or 95* here at home or 30* either. Thoguh I should note that I need to grip the rifle particularly firmly in the winter to avoid whacking my trigger finger on either the gaurd for the front trigger pull, or the front trigger when I pull the rear trigger since in the cold the gun will slip a heck of a lot more than when it is hot out or when my hands ar sweaty.

I see no difference in how my rifle shoots using front first or rear first offhand, which is the only way I've really tried it, IIRC. And I can shoot rear first well, and often do when duck hunting. Still. front first is more natural and the front trigger should provide the optimum length of pull.

JPK

Mark, Tony

Expanding on a point that JPK brought up. The last two issues of Big Bore magazine both have photos of two different hammered double rifles on the cover. On one of the rifles, the front trigger is to the right of the rear trigger. On the other, the front trigger is to the left of the rear trigger.

Assuming firing the front trigger first, a complete novice (I are one) would presume that having the rear trigger to the right of the front trigger, would make the rear trigger more immediately accessible for the second shot. On the few double shotguns that I have fired, it seems that I have to concentrate more at poking my trigger finger further into the trigger guard in order to engage a rear trigger that is to the left. From another point of view, having the rear trigger to the right of the front would make it more exposed and more liable to an accidental double.

Is there a right way or a wrong way, a more preferred way, or it just doesn't make any difference?

Mike, a true left hand double will have the triggers "reversed" ie the front trigger will be on the left. The thumb lever will reversed as well.

You didn't understand the question. I'm not talking left handed guns or shooting a right handed one left handed. On a right handed gun shot right handed, is there a right and wrong to whether the front trigger is on the right or left? I've seen both.

I'm pretty sure that with DR's, a right handed gun should have the front trigger on the right and the back trigger on the left.

On a right handed double the front trigger should be on the right, when you are holding the double in the firing position.
The front trigger fires the right bbl.

Mike:

If I understand you correctly, you're referring to the way that the trigger blades are bent? If so, the first rifle you mentioned sounds like it was set up for a left handed shooter, and the other for a right hander.

The triggers of my DRs are bent exactly the same. The front blade is bent slightly to the left of center and the rear is bent well to the right of center. If I slip my finger off the front trigger and pull it back in a straight line, it lands on the rear trigger - can't miss. This is correct for a right hander as it makes for a fast, fumble-free transition from the front to the rear trigger without having to "fish" for it. As you observed, if the finger slips off the front trigger under recoil, it can't miss the rear and a double discharge is almost guaranteed. That's why, for some folks, double triggers cannot be addressed in the same way as for other rifles. As JPK said, the adjustment necessary for some isn't necessary for others. Hands and fingers come in all different shapes and sizes.
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"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

Is that because it is less likely to accidentally double, or is there some other good reason, other than "that's the way it has always been". It would seem that the rear trigger would be more quickly accessible if it was to the right of the front trigger, i.e., slip off the front trigger and the rear is right there, instead of sticking your finger into the hole between the two triggers to get to the rear trigger. Like I said, I've seen both ways and shot shotguns both ways and the rear trigger to the right is quicker for me. If that is too dangerous for a heavy kicker, the front to the right would be logical, if that is the real reason.

Mark

Didn't see your post while I was typing. Sounds good to me. The shotguns I shot didn't have bent triggers. The one to the right was definitely TO THE RIGHT. There was no bending them to get them in alignment. That's what I get for shooting cheap shotguns, I guess.

Mike
Mark and I are both correct. Think about it.
The right trigger trips the right bbl's sear. The left trigger trips the left bbls sear... but the right/front trigger is bent to the left so after you shoot the right bbl you can "slip" past it and "find" the rear/left bbl trigger that is bent to the right making it easier to "find".

Makes perfect sense.

Now who is on first????

You guys just shoot higher class stuff than I do. On the cheap stuff I shot, the triggers were identical, no bends. The one on the right hung to the right, the one on the left hung to the left. The one with the rear on the left was hard to get to. The one with the rear on the right was easy to get to.

Have Dan scan, crop the trigger guards, and post the covers of the magazines I spoke of. On one, the front is left and the other the front is right. Evidentally, back in the hammer days they weren't standardized or, as Mark said, one was for a lefty. You can't tell from the pictures.

Mike
Next time I come up I will bring my 450/400 with some Nitro for Black loads, cast bullets at around 1700 fps and you can shoot some prairie dogs with it.

I am going to load some of those cast bullets I got from you tommorrow and see if they will chamber. They will go into my Bertram fired cases.
We will see if they will chamber tomorrow.


You caused me to but the 1895 Winchester in 405, I will try and get even causing you to buy a British Double. Even if you do choose BPE.

Folks, it is a STRANGE THING. mike makes the best bullets on the Planet, but he likes to shoot cast bullets.

quote:

Originally posted by NFMike:

You guys just shoot higher class stuff than I do. On the cheap stuff I shot, the triggers were identical, no bends. The one on the right hung to the right, the one on the left hung to the left. The one with the rear on the left was hard to get to. The one with the rear on the right was easy to get to.

Have Dan scan, crop the trigger guards, and post the covers of the magazines I spoke of. On one, the front is left and the other the front is right. Evidentally, back in the hammer days they weren't standardized or, as Mark said, one was for a lefty. You can't tell from the pictures.

What you are seeing on that cover is a lefthanded, and a right handed rifle! They have always been standardized! I have doubles that were made as long ago as 1840,and some made five years ago, The old hammer guns, where standard, with front trigger in the right for a right handed rifle, and the front trigger on the left for a left handed rifle. They are offset that way to aviod doubleing with the front trigger fired first, the way they are supposed to be fired!

Mac

Thanks for answering my question (even though you are making fun of my double gun ignorance ). As per my original post, it makes sense that the rear would be staggered away from the trigger finger to lessen the chance of a double, if that is what the builder was trying to accomplish. It seems that it would be, otherwise, there would be no reason to reverse the triggers if you making a double for a lefty.

Next stupid question: when a double is made for a lefty, is the gun designed and regulated to shoot the outside barrrel (left barrrel) first?

Last stupid question: I have seen on this forum discussion of buying a right handed double and restocking for a lefty (the topic was about a Searcy, I think). From previous posts, I would think this would screw up all sorts of things, including the regulation. Or does it just not matter that much at 50 yds.

gal and I test our doubles together sometimes, as we did last weekend.
He was working up loads fora 400 Jeffery, and I was testing RL 15 in my 450/400 3 1/4 Nitro Express Magnum.
He is left handed, I am right.
We booth shoot our doubles right bbl first.
So far, near as I can remember, when we shoot each others rifles they shoot the same for both of us, ie the "regulation" does not seem to matter if te double is shot right or left handed. Next time we get together we will watch it more closely.
This includes shooting at 100 yards.

I am lefty and shoot a right handed rifle, right first, and I haven't been able to see a difference.

I expected to see my groups leftward of where a right hander would see them, shooting the same ammo. Shooting side by side with a righty we see no difference.

While developping loads, some loads would shoot to the right of POA and some to the left. No predicability.

My three go-to-Africa loads all shoot to POA with maybe a half inch of verticle difference. The witness marks on the rear sight are still lined up.

JPK

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:
and the information 400 Nitro Expressgave you is the truth, and anything else you hear here is opinion!

MacD37,
Thanks for taking the time to explain.
You all talk about big cals., I just heard of a double in .22 savage hi-power that sold near me recently. Never got to see it though.
And one a couple of blocks away is (about) .30cal the owner doesn't know exactly what it is and i haven't seen that one either.

quote:

Originally posted by NFMike:
Mac

Thanks for answering my question (even though you are making fun of my double gun ignorance ).

Not makeing fun, just jiveing you a little!


[QUOTE As per my original post, it makes sense that the rear would be staggered away from the trigger finger to lessen the chance of a double, if that is what the builder was trying to accomplish. It seems that it would be, otherwise, there would be no reason to reverse the triggers if you making a double for a lefty.[/QUOTE

That is exactly right, that is the reason they are off-set!

quote:

Next stupid question: when a double is made for a lefty, is the gun designed and regulated to shoot the outside barrrel (left barrrel) first?

YES! and the top lever, or under lever will turn to the left as well!

quote:

Last stupid question: I have seen on this forum discussion of buying a right handed double and restocking for a lefty (the topic was about a Searcy, I think). From previous posts, I would think this would screw up all sorts of things, including the regulation. Or does it just not matter that much at 50 yds.

You are correct, if the triggers are switched for the front trigger to fire the left barrel it could very well screw things up, however if the triggers are simply bent to the opposite side, and the front trigger is still fired first, there would be no change in the regulation. Addtionally, if the triggers were reversed, so the front trigger fired the left barrel, and the back trigger fired right barrel this could be overcome by firing the back trigger first. For those who would like to use the back trigger first, this would be the fix for them, and only the top lever would have to be reversed!

Like Rosanne Rosannadanna said "Never mind"

I got hold of Pierre and he fessed up that one of the photos on the magazine covers was reversed to make it more artistically fit the cover.

He said, for doing so, half of Africa jumped on his back and the other half severly pummeled him for such a transgression. He appeared more than a little annoyed that an idiot from the US also caught it.