The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Rifles Double Rifles WR 450/400 3" FSGo | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
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Don't know if I'm breaking any rules here....BUT for those of you wanting a 450-400 3" check out the link below... http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=116753822 | ||
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You are breaking rules! but thanks for the pics. ------------------------------- Will Stewart / Once you've been amongst them, there is no such thing as too much gun. --------------------------------------- and, God Bless John Wayne. NRA Benefactor Member, GOA, N.A.G.R. _________________________ "Elephant and Elephant Guns" $99 shipped “Hunting Africa's Dangerous Game" $20 shipped. red.dirt.elephant@gmail.com _________________________ Hoping to wind up where elephant hunters go. | |||
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oops!!!  Nice huh!  JW out | |||
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Double rifles are God's way of telling me I don't make enough money. Good hunting, Andy ----------------------------- Thomas Jefferson: “To compel a man to furnish funds for the propagation of ideas he disbelieves and abhors is sinful and tyrannical.” | |||
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Here are my questions: Do the "400EX" proof marks indicate it was originally a 2 3/8" gun that was reproved or is it a nitro gun from the start? Also, it has also been severely buffed and refinished. Is it correct to assume that the plates inset (well done, I might add) into the standing breach were done due to pitting/erosion of the breach face? I've never seen a WR with this "feature." The only guns I’ve seen it done on were BPEs that were restored pre-war+-, as the skilled labor usually made it too expensive to make it worthwhile since. Any idea on the year? I’m not sure when the C-bite (by my untrained eye) came about. I'm not by any means disparage this gun in any way (I've got a bunch of "shooters" in my safe that I love), just asking for my own knowledge. I appreciate the education I get here from our more knowledgeable members! Best Regards, Bob DRSS "If we're not supposed to eat animals, why are they made out of meat?" "PS. To add a bit of Pappasonian philosophy: this single barrel stuff is just a passing fad. Bolt actions and single shots will fade away as did disco, the hula hoop, and bell-bottomed pants. Doubles will rule the world!" | |||
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I'd like to hear from some more knowledgeable double owners. But, the screw heads are a bit buggered and the amount of pitting on the barrels is not encouraging. Do not know about the plates inset to hold the firing pins. Believe the rifle is originally (Birmingham) nitro proof after the 1904 rules of proof. The case is aftermarket. The price is absurd for a boxlock in such condition. Regards | |||
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I actually talked to this guy via E-mail about a year ago when he got the rifle. I brought up most of the points that have been discussed here and I told him that it has definitely been refinished as is evident from the blued over pitting on the barrels. The wood is horribly oil soaked and it will need to be restocked. The forend is a total loss. All of this ho hum "I think it might have been refinished" stuff is BS he knows damn well that is has, he also knows damn well that the wood is a loss and that the rifling is frosted. Don't buy into all of this innocent ahh gee golly jeepers it may have this or that wrong with it BS. He knows exactly whats wrong with it. He is smoking MAJOR crack asking that price for that rifle. Looking at the rifle again the butt stock has been refinished since I saw pictures of it originally. It was just as black and gooey as the forend when I saw it before. | |||
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Actually this was an original Nitro Proof rifle. I'll let 400 NitroExpress explain the proof marks. As far as the wood goes there are a couple of guys JJ Parodeau at Champlin's and Dustin Mounts in Houston, Texas who can save the forearm and removed oil from the stock. It is a redo and the most important item the bores are not shown. The asking price is based on the name only not the condition of the rifle! In my opine to rifle does not command the asking price! Rusty We Band of Brothers! DRSS, NRA & SCI Life Member "I am rejoiced at my fate. Do not be uneasy about me, for I am with my friends." ----- David Crockett in his last letter (to his children), January 9th, 1836 "I will never forsake Texas and her cause. I am her son." ----- Jose Antonio Navarro, from Mexican Prison in 1841 "for I have sworn upon the altar of god eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man." Thomas Jefferson Declaration of Arbroath April 6, 1320-“. . .It is not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom - for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself.” | |||
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Rusty, I am not being a smart ass when I ask you this. Do really think that forend is worth saving? It is cracked all the way through in several places front and rear and is dripping oil. I would have thought that it would be better to simply replace it. | |||
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I appreciate your question! In some circles keeping the rifle as original as possible is preferred. A certain amount of restoration such as re-blacking the barrels, putting the barrels back on face, adjusting the pull, etc is acceptable. When you go to replacing the stock/forearm then to some the value of the rifle is diminished. When ever possible I would try to save the wood. Replacing the forearm and even more so the stock becomes an expensive proposition and need to be done only by those who are trained in replacing/making double rifle stocks. As an example, I have a beautiful CE grade A.H. Fox 20ga. that I had the forearm replace because of splitting wood. I now wish I had just had it repaired. As nice as the replacement is, it looks dreadful next to the stock! After all is said and done, it's the rifle owner's call. Most all things can be done. However replacing stocks and forearms on double rifles is not like dropping your favorite Model 70 into a ready made stock! Once again, just my opine. I hope this helps. Rusty We Band of Brothers! DRSS, NRA & SCI Life Member "I am rejoiced at my fate. Do not be uneasy about me, for I am with my friends." ----- David Crockett in his last letter (to his children), January 9th, 1836 "I will never forsake Texas and her cause. I am her son." ----- Jose Antonio Navarro, from Mexican Prison in 1841 "for I have sworn upon the altar of god eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man." Thomas Jefferson Declaration of Arbroath April 6, 1320-“. . .It is not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom - for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself.” | |||
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Thanks Rusty, I guess a good wood man can do miracles with a repair. That butt stock looked a lot like the forend when I first saw the rifle. So I can sure see the oil thing be taken care of. I am guessing an acetone bath and other assorted miracle cures. The cracks in the forend, I am wondering how nice they will look after repair. But I sure do understand the originality factor. In any case that old girl is need of some serious TLC. | |||
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I do not know what Dustin Mounts in Houston uses. Both BobC and 400 NitroExpress have made use of his oil removal services. Both seem very pleased and the stocks look great! Rusty We Band of Brothers! DRSS, NRA & SCI Life Member "I am rejoiced at my fate. Do not be uneasy about me, for I am with my friends." ----- David Crockett in his last letter (to his children), January 9th, 1836 "I will never forsake Texas and her cause. I am her son." ----- Jose Antonio Navarro, from Mexican Prison in 1841 "for I have sworn upon the altar of god eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man." Thomas Jefferson Declaration of Arbroath April 6, 1320-“. . .It is not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom - for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself.” | |||
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Rusty asked me to comment on this string.
No, this is an original nitro gun. The "EX" mark (introduced in 1887) was used by the proof house to denote an express rifle. Nitro or black powder express was established by marks accompanying the definitive proof mark indicating special (Nitro) proof was conducted for a full nitro express load (Cordite 60/400MAX).
Ad says 1908, which sounds about right. Post 1904 marks, no date code (introduced 1921), and shoe lump barrels.
1862.
Yes. Whoever the "professional" was that "refinished" this rifle did a professional hack job and left lot of damage behind.
No, they're original, which is why they look well done. I've seen a number of WR double rifles with pins bushed in this manner. As long as the butt is solid and the bores are as described - no pits, sharp rifling with light Cordite erosion in the grooves - then it's worth saving, but it's a basket case. This rifle needs complete restoration. Properly done, it could be worth slightly more than the asking price, but there are thousands between there and where it is now.
Surestrike, the fore-end actually looks like the easy part to me. I wouldn't replace it. It's actually in great shape - complete with no missing pieces yet. The cracks will be invisible when properly repaired, and it won't break in the same place again. A new one done by an established professional is $2000 plus the wood. | |||
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With a "refinish" like that, I'm just surprised to see that a Miller single trigger wasn't installed and that the barrels weren't cut to 18".  There should be a prison for "gunsmiths" that do such evil things to fine guns. | |||
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400NE, once again I'm in your debt for sharing your expert knowledge. Thanks! Bob DRSS "If we're not supposed to eat animals, why are they made out of meat?" "PS. To add a bit of Pappasonian philosophy: this single barrel stuff is just a passing fad. Bolt actions and single shots will fade away as did disco, the hula hoop, and bell-bottomed pants. Doubles will rule the world!" | |||
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The vendor is in dream land. | |||
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Thank you for the kind words, Bob. You're always welcome. | |||
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If that rifle will shoot at all, the first two shots out of it should put two nice holes in the so-called gun smith that did the "RESTORATION" !  The fireing pin bushings are origenal! ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith  | |||
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400 NE, I'd also like to thank you for your expertise and the fine information that you provide. Greg | |||
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Actually the two fellows who ran the Springfield Missouri location of the WR agency in 1999 know something about prison. Bob was sent there by BATF for violating gun laws (second violation) and Roger at last report is headed there for similar violations. At the time they had a gunsmith "in house" but I think he worked more in the pawn shop that was attached to the East end of the WR agency. There were a lot of cheap guns in there that were in poor condition. My experience with their gunsmith on a Fox double barrel shotgun led me to believe he is no JJ. I don't know if he did the work on this double rifle but it is possible. ALLEN W. JOHNSON - DRSS Into my heart on air that kills From yon far country blows: What are those blue remembered hills, What spires, what farms are those? That is the land of lost content, I see it shining plain, The happy highways where I went And cannot come again. A. E. Housman | |||
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400 Nitro Express AGAIN does his thing. It's good to have his input here, as in prior discussions.  Jack OH GOD! {Seriously, we need the help.} | |||
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