I am joining the ranks of double rifle by the back door. I have just taken delivery of an Einstecklauf in 7x65r that is going into the top barrel of my Ferlach built 7x65r/16 bore combination gun. It needs final fitting by local gunsmith, but should be up and running soon.

It has an adjustable barrel wedge system so that I can regulate it to same point of impact as the bottom barrel. Currently zeroed at 100 yds. Should I set to hit the height of the barrels apart i.e. About 1" high, but at 50m or 100m.

My thinking is to keep the bottom barrel as first barrel and keep this for long shots, with the 2nd as follow up - mostly for driven game.

Am I likely to notice a big difference in bullet weights as to regulation. I currently use a 139gn homeload for its deer, but an RWS 173gn ID classic when I have something bigger. They shoot to same point of aim.

quote:

Originally posted by Heym SR20:
I am joining the ranks of double rifle by the back door. I have just taken delivery of an Einstecklauf in 7x65r that is going into the top barrel of my Ferlach built 7x65r/16 bore combination gun. It needs final fitting by local gunsmith, but should be up and running soon.

It has an adjustable barrel wedge system so that I can regulate it to same point of impact as the bottom barrel. Currently zeroed at 100 yds. Should I set to hit the height of the barrels apart i.e. About 1" high, but at 50m or 100m.

My thinking is to keep the bottom barrel as first barrel and keep this for long shots, with the 2nd as follow up - mostly for driven game.

Am I likely to notice a big difference in bullet weights as to regulation. I currently use a 139gn homeload for its deer, but an RWS 173gn ID classic when I have something bigger. They shoot to same point of aim.

I assume this is a system that goes inside the shot barrel! If that is true then your adjustable regulation will work. However on the bullet weight being different may not be a factor as long as the insert barrel has the same rate of twist of the rifling.

On the regulation I would regulate the barrels to place the centers of each barrels individual three shot group the same distance as between the barrels center of bore one above the other. All shots from each barrel fired from cool barrels. I assume this gun has double triggers, and if so with proper regulation it should make no difference which barrel is fired first, and the regulation should remain the same, printing one barrels group center being one above the other at the same range, no matter which barrel is fired first, and form a good composite group of both barrels on the target with one group center over the other.

With this regulation the rifle will shoot the same with both barrel no matter the range!

Hope any of this is at least as clear as mud!

I would get whatever bullet weight you decide as standard regulated for 200 yards or 182m. I have my 9.3x74R regulated for 200m. I shoot from 30m to 250m with it.

quote:

Originally posted by mchughcb:
I would get whatever bullet weight you decide as standard regulated for 200 yards or 182m. I have my 9.3x74R regulated for 200m. I shoot from 30m to 250m with it.

If a double rifle is properly regulated at 50 yds/mtrs it will shoot a working composite group at any range. The zeroing for 200mtrs is done by filing the sights not regulating the barrels. In most cases the standing iron sight on a 9.3X74R double rifle will be filed for dead on at 100 yds/mtrs and have one flip up sight not filed so the owner may file it for what ever range he wants.
If the rifle is fitted with a quick detach scope that can be adjusted to any range one chooses, but that has nothing to do with the physical regulation of the barrels.
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quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:

quote:

Originally posted by Heym SR20:
I am joining the ranks of double rifle by the back door. I have just taken delivery of an Einstecklauf in 7x65r that is going into the top barrel of my Ferlach built 7x65r/16 bore combination gun. It needs final fitting by local gunsmith, but should be up and running soon.

It has an adjustable barrel wedge system so that I can regulate it to same point of impact as the bottom barrel. Currently zeroed at 100 yds. Should I set to hit the height of the barrels apart i.e. About 1" high, but at 50m or 100m.

My thinking is to keep the bottom barrel as first barrel and keep this for long shots, with the 2nd as follow up - mostly for driven game.

Am I likely to notice a big difference in bullet weights as to regulation. I currently use a 139gn homeload for its deer, but an RWS 173gn ID classic when I have something bigger. They shoot to same point of aim.

I assume this is a system that goes inside the shot barrel! If that is true then your adjustable regulation will work. However on the bullet weight being different may not be a factor as long as the insert barrel has the same rate of twist of the rifling.

On the regulation I would regulate the barrels to place the centers of each barrels individual three shot group the same distance as between the barrels center of bore one above the other. All shots from each barrel fired from cool barrels. I assume this gun has double triggers, and if so with proper regulation it should make no difference which barrel is fired first, and the regulation should remain the same, printing one barrels group center being one above the other at the same range, no matter which barrel is fired first, and form a good composite group of both barrels on the target with one group center over the other.

With this regulation the rifle will shoot the same with both barrel no matter the range!

Hope any of this is at least as clear as mud!

Thanks - thats really useful and confirms my thinking. Yes its a system that goes into my shot barrel and is adjustable. Will start of at 50 yds and adjust as you suggest - middle of each group as per the height of the barrels apart.

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:

quote:

Originally posted by mchughcb:
I would get whatever bullet weight you decide as standard regulated for 200 yards or 182m. I have my 9.3x74R regulated for 200m. I shoot from 30m to 250m with it.

If a double rifle is properly regulated at 50 yds/mtrs it will shoot a working composite group at any range. The zeroing for 200mtrs is done by filing the sights not regulating the barrels. In most cases the standing iron sight on a 9.3X74R double rifle will be filed for dead on at 100 yds/mtrs and have one flip up sight not filed so the owner may file it for what ever range he wants.
If the rifle is fitted with a quick detach scope that can be adjusted to any range one chooses, but that has nothing to do with the physical regulation of the barrels.
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In theory yes, in my experience regulating 4 doubles for 200m it is not. How many doubles have you got shooting for groups at 200m?

quote:

Originally posted by mchughcb:

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:

quote:

Originally posted by mchughcb:
I would get whatever bullet weight you decide as standard regulated for 200 yards or 182m. I have my 9.3x74R regulated for 200m. I shoot from 30m to 250m with it.

If a double rifle is properly regulated at 50 yds/mtrs it will shoot a working composite group at any range. The zeroing for 200mtrs is done by filing the sights not regulating the barrels. In most cases the standing iron sight on a 9.3X74R double rifle will be filed for dead on at 100 yds/mtrs and have one flip up sight not filed so the owner may file it for what ever range he wants.
If the rifle is fitted with a quick detach scope that can be adjusted to any range one chooses, but that has nothing to do with the physical regulation of the barrels.
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In theory yes, in my experience regulating 4 doubles for 200m it is not. How many doubles have you got shooting for groups at 200m?

Mchugheb, a double rifle that is physically regulated properly at 50 yds will still be regulated at any range. The only thing that changes is the size of each barrel’s individual group, and consequently a larger composite group the farther it goes down range. You will get the same effect by properly regulating at 50 yds as you would trying to regulate the barrels out at 200mms. A properly regulated double rifle doesn’t change regulation down range. The only change is the barrels groups get larger as it goes down range. The centers of each barrels individual group will remain side by side, or over and under no matter how far you shoot.

As far as my doubles go, they will shoot a working composite group at any range. Hold over is all that is needed for distance to be on target. I shoot deer, coyotes and wild boar out to 200 yds regularly, and my seven double rifles were all regulated at 100 yds for the small bores, and fifty yards for the big bores as far as the iron sights go, but shoot to regulation out at 200 yds as well.

I have my doubts that you have ever regulated a double rifle of any kind, at any range but I could certainly be all wet with that opinion.

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Are you guys regulating barrels or sighting in barrels, regulations is done with solder, wedges and wire and rebluing.. Sighting in on the other hand can be done with sight filing, changing front sights etc., or by handloading ammo to velocity specs?

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
Are you guys regulating barrels or sighting in barrels, regulations is done with solder, wedges and wire and rebluing.. Sighting in on the other hand can be done with sight filing, changing front sights etc., or by handloading ammo to velocity specs?

quote:

Mchughcb;
In theory yes, in my experience regulating 4 doubles for 200m it is not. How many doubles have you got shooting for groups at 200m?

quote:

by MacD37;
Mchughcb I have my doubts that you have ever regulated a double rifle of any kind, at any range but I could certainly be all wet with that opinion.

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Ray I think Mchughcb is describing filing the sights not actually regulating the barrels. If he does mean regulating the barrels, then I’m sure that my statement above, in bold, is spot on!

This is a common misconception that is caused by the makers using the word (REGULATED) for both the physical regulation of the barrels with wedges and solder adjusting the barrel conversion to shoot a proper composite group of both barrel. The makers also make the statement (this rifle is regulated at 50 yds) and that is in regard to the distance that the iron sights are filed to be dead on for elevation at that range. Using the word (REGULATION) for both physically adjusting the barrels and filing the sights at the ZERO range are two entirely different things!

I have a similar setup in one of my drillings. The rifle barrel is 7x57r and I have a full length insert in 5.6x50R in the right shotgun barrel. Fitting the barrel is the key. Once fitted, the wedge system can be set up to a specific point of aim with a specific load. In my case, the 5.6 and 7mm barrel hit the same point at 100 yards with specific loads. Being different calibers, they are not the same as a DR in terms of regulation. Yours should be. If you have the right guy set it up, it should regulate nicely. My full length insert is as accurate as the 7mm barrel. Might want to see if your firing pin needs bushed.

Having suffered through some less than perfect work on my German guns, I'd recommend careful choosing of your gunsmith.
Sounds like you are going to have a great setup.
Enjoy!
Bfly

quote:

Originally posted by Black Fly:
I have a similar setup in one of my drillings. The rifle barrel is 7x57r and I have a full length insert in 5.6x50R in the right shotgun barrel. Fitting the barrel is the key. Once fitted, the wedge system can be set up to a specific point of aim with a specific load. In my case, the 5.6 and 7mm barrel hit the same point at 100 yards with specific loads. Being different calibers, they are not the same as a DR in terms of regulation. Yours should be. If you have the right guy set it up, it should regulate nicely. My full length insert is as accurate as the 7mm barrel. Might want to see if your firing pin needs bushed.

Having suffered through some less than perfect work on my German guns, I'd recommend careful choosing of your gunsmith.
Sounds like you are going to have a great setup.
Enjoy!
Bfly

Thanks - it is being fitted at the moment. I am using a gunsmith who understands rifles and fine and she is very good machinist. Hardly any body in the uk even knows what an insert barrel is, but paperwork and cost of sending the gun across to Germany for fitting was prohibitive. I did think seriously about the 5.6x50r, but went with another 7x65r barrel as my thinking is that no foxes complain about the 7x65r but a 5.6 is not so good for a 2nd shot on boar!! How close to zero is your barrel when you take it out and replace it?

I was really surprised when I took it out to do some woodcock hunting. It returns to the same point of impact. I've done it four or five times and had the same results each time.
I do treat it with gentle hands and store it carefully when it is out. To remove it I lightly tap a wooden dowel with a light hammer against the muzzle end, pushing it out the breach.

When I put it back in, it takes a couple gentle, little taps with my nylon faced hammer at the breach end to seat it, since it is a snug fit.

It's very different from dropping in an einstecklauf.
I enjoy the 5.6, but I would only shoot a pig behind the ear with that bullet and I bet you would have a hard time getting one to turn to just the right position and hold still for the shot.
Bfly

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
Are you guys regulating barrels or sighting in barrels, regulations is done with solder, wedges and wire and rebluing.. Sighting in on the other hand can be done with sight filing, changing front sights etc., or by handloading ammo to velocity specs?

No I mean adjusting the barrels. When adjusting thermostabil barrels from modern double rifles both under and over and side by side the barrels are free floating so there is no soldering and wedges. I have regulated barrels with coarse adjustment with allen keys then fine adjustment with a 0.9mm allen key. With safari barrels Ie 375 and up they are adjusted with a moveable wedge between the barrels that is held by three torque screws for x direction. For y direction there is a clamp that holds the barrel and ribbing held with a torx screw. You need to construct a special jig and clamp the monoblock down then you adjust the barrels with respect to each other to make sure they are shooting in the y direction.

For combination regulation you need to get the top shotgun barrel shooting to POI with a good slug like rottweil exact at 50m with your sight then you adjust the rifle barrel underneath with an allen key.

When people talk about regulation unless you have a double capable of sub MOA accuracy like mine and the ones I have regulated, then with 2m MOA accuracy which is 1" at 50 yards the standard deviation of the group of each barrel will overlap the distance between the barrel. Therefore thinking that is "correctly regulated at 50 yards and good for 200" is a pretty brave assumption unless you have actually tested your double out to 300 yards and see exactly where each barrel is shooting. Even when you do that as I have on a over and under double I have seen the regulation change with different scopes, enough to warrant being able to miss a fox at 250 yards. Why that occurs I've got a few ideas but none of which is probably relavent to the OP.

quote:

Originally posted by mchughcb:
Even when you do that as I have on a over and under double I have seen the regulation change with different scopes, enough to warrant being able to miss a fox at 250 yards. Why that occurs I've got a few ideas but none of which is probably relavent to the OP.

The reason the regulation changes with different scopes is it changes the muzzle flip that the regulation depends on to shoot to point of aim with both barrels. The retarding of the muzzle flip changes where the barrels are pointing when the bullet exits the muzzle destroying proper barrel time!

This flip to get regulation also is different in a O/U than it is in a S/S.

On a Side by side, each barrel moves UP and AWAY from the other barrel under recoil with proper regulation causing the muzzle of each barrel to be pointing where the sights were when the trigger was pulled.

The OVER UNDER normally fires the bottom barrel first with a single trigger rifle. That barrel recoils straighter back, and up during barrel time, while the upper barrel recoils back but also recoils more up than the bottom barrel because it is farther above the CG (center of gravity)than the bottom barrel.
The fact that you seem to be using a insert inside a shotgun barrel makes that barrel quite a bit heavier than the bottom barrel on a combo gun which is, in your case, a positive with the irons, but adding a heavy scope and mounts may over power the regulation causing a need to re-regulate after mounting the scope.

Some are satisfied with Screw type regulation, and in a set up like a combo with a insert in the shot barrel that is the only thing that will work. In a real double rifle, in both O/U and S/S real double rifles a permanent solid regulation by the maker is the best way to go. When mounting a scope on a double rifle the scope and mounts must be as light, and as low as is possible so as not to retard the flip to any great degree. This is not as detrimental in a O/U double rifle, as it is with a S/S.

The use of inserts in a combination gun is not usually a very satisfactory way of making a double rifle out of SG/RFL combo. It seems you have found one that works for you.
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As i dont have an insert in a shotgun barrel of my BBF or a proper double ill leave this thread and go hunting.

OK and I'll go back to adjusting doubles with a wedge, copper wire and solder, I'll get mac to help me, I know he knows his stuff! Ive only built one double rifle in my life, and apparently did it the old fashion way, The way Butch Searcy and the English do it..It was a 450-416-3"..A 450-400-3" necked up to a .416 bullet..I used a rehardened Browning 12 ga. double action under the tuteledge of Rick Stickley and that alone was an experience..

I still have the RCBS dies if anyone is interested in a wildcat double..It sure was a great gun.