One more time, in your opinion which is currently the best shop in the U.S. to repair sticking firing pins (won't retract) in the Valmet 412? How about in the western U.S....? If not the same place, is there anyone you'd recommend out this direction?

TIA for your sugestions.

I would give Russ Gould a call at Double Gun Headquarters
He seems to be the new dealer in town. Maybe he'll know where to send it. He's been selling these for some time and is now the Finn Classic dealer which is the same gun.
The dealer in New York that was the Valmet service station is not there any more.

Thanks Foxfire- I think the NY dealer was the one I sent it to some years ago for the same problem. They installed a new set of barrels, saying that was the source of the trouble, but it didn't cure the problem in the slightest....

Hopefully whoever is doing it now will have a real cure. I've got several sets of barrels (5 sets in total) and it would sure be nice to be able to use the gun in the field.

You don't need to have ir repaired.
They do not retract.

JD

quote:

Originally posted by J D:
You don't need to have ir repaired.
They do not retract.

JD

So, JD, you are telling me the gun is designed to have the firing pins stick in the "fired" position to the extent that the gun will NOT open after firing, unless VERY heavy force is applied? And that it is supposed to have the firing pins drag across the primers and the bottom halves of fired cartridges to the point of making a deep groove in each when the rifle is finally forced open? Somehow, I still have some doubts.....

One of the reasons that amazes me is that the pins "stick" or "jam" so far forward that if one were to close the action on loaded rounds without first forcing the pins back somehow, it would put one in dire danger of having the protruding pins fire both barrels as the action was closing and not necessarily locked. Somehow I can't envision anyone engineering or manufacturing an action to intentionally work in that manner.

So, for the moment, I still have to believe it was NOT designed that way, and that something has gone amiss. The question is, then, who can determine whether or not it is repairable?

the answer is to have a competent gunsmith put in bushed firing pins with springs that force them to retract after firing.obviously the maker was not knowledgeable enough to do this - that may be why they have gone out of business so many times !

it will work but it may cost more than your gun is worth today. but with all those bbl sets it may be worth it.

best guy out west is
jack huntington - jrh advanced gunsmithing
21854 meyer ravine rd
grass valley, cal 95949

tel 530 268 6877

he is so good i send my work out to him from pennsylvania. tell him tom ondrus sent you

Tom-

Thanks for the name and address. Sounds as if he might be a good man to have look at it.

If bushed firing pins are necessary, I can do that myself. Matter of fact, I had been considering doing it exactly as you describe, with captive springs, quite similar in principle to what we used to do with some single-shot falling-block rifle pins.

I would just prefer that a person who is truly knowledgeable about Valmet guns take a look at it to see if that is really what is required, or if there is some adjustment which will solve the problem.

I could be misinformed, but as I understand it, Valmet has been in the firearm manufacturing business continuously for MANY years, and has not been in and out of business until the recent spin-offs to Italy. American importers have been in and out of business, but Valmet has been around a long time. As a semi-governmental arm of the military arms industry in its country, it was shifted about a bit there...kind of similar to what has happened with BATF in our own country. but, it still kept on ticking.

Of course the business model is different over there in Finland, with firms such as Valmet, Sako, et. al. also competing as quasi-private industry in both that firearms arena and other areas simultaneously.

It is also my observation over the years that the Europeans have as many brains as we do, and use them just about with the same frequency and success.

Anyway, thanks very much for the name...

ALBERTA - you seem competent if you were installing bushed firing pins - why don't ....
you.... just tear it down and see what is wrong ?

no top break gun should have the firing pins stick out. none.

maybe the thing is full of dirt ? or something has worn which lets them stick ( maybe too much dry firing by the previous owner ) ?

they are not a complicated gun far as i know

any sticking or obvious wear / galling problem should be readily visible.

or just send it to jack - he'll get 'er done !

Tom -

Have you any knowledge of Chris Altland, who is a recommended Valmet specialist living in your state and dba "ALTLANDGUN"? Would appreciate sharing any knowledge you have of him. If you personally know nothing first-hand which is significantly negative about him, I'll probably send the action to him first, as he is recommended by Valmet distributors.

The gun had no abuse from a previous owner. I bought it new in the 1970's in Calgary, Alberta. I suspect perhaps some grit or metallic chaff may have found its way into the action when a couple of the later barrel sets were added by folks in Arizona and New York.

Though I can do just about any mechanical work required on guns, I no longer like to...have had a series of vascular problems in the last couple of years. Now undertaking major overhauls requires more time and effort than I care to expend if I don't absolutely have to do it myself.

Besides that, the government requires me to withdraw money from my IRA every year which I don't need, so I might as well spend it on saving myself time and aggravation.

So about all I do now is fire up the lathe to rebarrel/rechamber something once in a while, or to make some part which is absolutely not available in the market place for one of my cars or guns. (Isn't much available for an all-aluminum American V-8 tucked into a little Porsche, for instance, so I have to make most of those "SAE one end/metric other end" pieces when required....)

Will be quite interesting to see what the problem turns out to have been.

Best wishes,

AC

AC
I had a little problem with the computer and just got back on line. I just got a Tika 512, I read in the gunsmithing guide or the owners manuel that the firing pins do not retract. My gun was also very hard to open,and had 9 lb trigger pulls. I took it apart to stone the triggers. The pins can not retract until the action is broken open and the hammers are rotated back to the cocked position. The hammer pins over power and have a effect on every opperaion of the trigger group and locking bolt. My hammer springs were so strong and so long I could not reinstall them as they came. They were 5 coils longer than the sprig guide. Hell I even made a tool and a guide to try to reinstall them. I trimmed them until I was able to get them back inplace,they were still stiff enough after trimming that it took a lot of effort to reinstall them. The gun now opens like a well fitted double, and the trigger pulls are set at 3.5 lbs for both triggers. I leave the sears dry. The gunsmithing guide said not to set the trigger pull beloww 3.5 lb. It does not double but you have to keep a firm grip on the stock and control of your trigger finger. The rifle will fire as it comes out of recoil if yuo leave you trigger finger in the way. 12 ga bismith kicks hard enought to make that happen, but I have not had any trouble with 9.3X74 rounds. When I am shooting the shotgun set I fire the rear trigger first. I am not telling you to trim the hammer springs, but that is how I was able to solve
the problems I had with my 512. Over do it you will have all kind of problems. Go to Nitro 's site , look under double rifles you will find the gunsmithing guide

JD

Here's the condensed version of the fitting instructions.
Valmet Gunsmithing instructions

J.D.-

That is interesting information, and may prove very useful indeed. Thank you very much for it.

With that specific possibility in mind, I'll take mine apart and see what MY gun's springs are like.

AC

quote:

Originally posted by foxfire:
Here's the condensed version of the fitting instructions.
Valmet Gunsmithing instructions

Thank you Foxfire. Between you and several others here we are getting somewhere...

This thing IS going to work smoothly and reliably, if I have to redesign and machine parts for it myself!!! After all these 30 years of mostly sitting in my vault(s), it has finally gotten my competitive spirit aroused!!!

Best wishes to you all. If you have any more ideas or info, please let me know. I'll check this thread at least every day for the forseeable future, so your thoughts & comments won't be ignored.

AC

Tom, J.D., & Foxfire -

Apparently my older Valmet 412 may be somewhat different than the newer Tikka 512s.

I just took my Valmet partially apart, and found it was built at the factory with both automatic selective ejectors, AND spring-loaded retracting firing pins.

So far I have also found the following:

1. The upper pin barely retracts beneath the surface of the standing breech, while the lower pin retracts considerably more. Though I have thoroughly doused the whole action in non-residue brake cleaner to remove any soluble crud, I have not yet disassembled it completely to find out why that occurs.

2. The upper ejector does NOT function at all. It is frozen in place; will move neither forward nor backward...looks like I can see a bit of broken metal under it at the breech end, just under the hook" that it uses to push out the fired case.

The lower ejector functions quite nicely and has strong, but not excessive, spring pressure.

I am about to go down and remove the "covering plate" of the ejectors (Valmet's term), to see if I can find what is up with them. I can only hope I don't get springs/etc. going everywhere, as my shop is currently so jammed with guns, parts, tools, etc., I may never find anything that bounds strongly away.

On second thought, I'll wait until tomorrow to do that. Waiting will give any of you who have had an ejector covering plate off of a Valmet a chance to warn me if I am about to open a real kettle of fish there...

3. While I was at it, I weighed my triggers. Directly within specs, it turns out...will lift a 4-1/2 pound weight used at Camp Perry, and the Commonwealth Games, but will not lift a 5 pound weight.

4. So far,so good. Any further words of wisdom from you guys will certainly be useful.

Alberta Canuck,
I'm heading out for a day of pheasant shooting tomorrow and taking the Valmet. So I took a minute to look at it.
First mine is a Valmet 412S bought late 70's. I put 2 snap caps in and fired both barrels. The gun opens with little or no effort and looking closely as I'm opening it the firing pins do not stick out as the gun opens. I can see the top firing pin hole as the gun is just barely open and the firing pins seem completely retracted before the pressure of the barrels start to cock the gun again.
Just thought I let you know what I saw today.

Thanks, Foxfire. That is the way I expected mine to work, too.

It seems to be working fine EMPTY,now that I have cleaned it with brake cleaner, but tomorrow will tell. I've loaded up another 40 rounds, in one grain increments from 53 to 57 grains of 4064 (8 rounds each of 53, 54, 55, 56, and 57 grains). Will start firing with the lightest load, work my way up, and see what happens.

In the past it has worked fairly well on occasion for the first 3-5 rounds, until it got warm. Then the firing pins would stick tighter and tighter with each shot thereafter. That doesn't make any sense to me, but there it is.

Have you ever had the buttstock off of yours to see if it has the spring-loaded retracting firing pins? Mine does, even if they don't work much of the time, and the schematic I found in a 1981 issue of American Rifleman shows that yours does too. Keep your fingers crossed for me,please..

There is a protruding lug on the forend iron that operates the cocking slide that runs in a channel in the bottom of the action. As the gun opens, this lug pushes the cocking slide back and cocks the hammers via a cocking crank for each hammer, allowing the pins to retract. It sounds like this lug is not moving the cocking slide soon enough. It could be bent or worn, or your forend might have some play due to incorrect fitting of the forend hanger on the bbls. However, since you say this happens with all your barrel sets, I doubt that barrel fitting is the problem. More likely it's the forend iron or perhaps wear of the cocking slide or the cocking cranks. This could be compounded by old oil or gunk that has gotten into the firing pin holes causing the firing pins to stick even though the hammers are retracting. But I doubt that if the pins are gouging the primers, it's not just friction holding them in the extended position.

Why this would only happen when the gun has been fired a couple of times is a mystery. The little temp rise that ensues, a few degrees, is not going to affect anything.

Nothing flies off when you take the ejector cover off. This just keeps dirt out of the ejector mechanism. You can remove the ejectors individually without disassembling the ejector mechanism, by depressing the ejector bars on each side of the action and sliding the ejectors off. This should allow you to remove the debris that you mention.

We don't recommend modifications to the springs or sears. In any case, that's a completely separate assembly and there is no logical connection between the hammer spring tension and the timing of the retraction of the firing pins. Yes, weaker hammer springs will require less force to open the gun since you are pushing against these springs via the mechanism when you do so, but your mechanical advantage is so huge that you should be able to open the gun and compress these springs with ease.

Russ, thank you VERY much!!

I fastidiously cleaned everything inside the action on Thursday, Friday, & Saturday.

Yesterday (Sunday) I took it to the range to test fire.

(I did not modify ANYTHING in or on the gun, as trigger pulls were within spec, and when clean and unfired, it opens and closes just like a fine Swiss watch case.)

Managed only one shot from each barrel yesterday.

Fired the lower barrel first, with a relatively light load of 53 grains IMR-4064, F-210 primer, new RWS brass, and 286 gr. Norma bullet. Then tried to open the rifle. Very, very difficult. On opening, it was noted that the lower half of the case head is very deeply grooved by the lower firing pin. More imortant, it was obvious that the primer had at least partially extruded into the firing pin hole. One of the reasons the action was so difficult to open was that in order to open at all, it had to shear off the part of the primer cup which had extruded into the firing pin hole.

So, then, I loaded the top barrel with the same load and fired it. Same exact story as with the lower barrel...primer extruded into firing pin hole and sheared on opening, deep groove cut by firing pin into bottom half of case head/rim.

It looks as if I now have only two choices left:

1. Try to find primers with cups heavy enough that they will NOT extrude into the firing pin holes, but which my gun will still reliably indent enough to fire, or

2. Send the gun on to Chris to have the firing pins holes bushed and smaller diameter firing pin holes cut, together with fitting of proper diameter firing pins.

I know you can't see the gun from where you are sitting, but based on the little info I have given you above, what would be your next step?

I could probably re-bush the pin holes myself, but quite frankly, due to my age & shaky health, I'm not interested in doing that work on my own.

Alberta Canuck,
Did you try firing the Shotgun barrels at all? I know I read somewhere that when rifle barrels are added to a shotgun or shotgun barrels are added to a rifle I can't remember which, primers can be punched threw. I don't remember where or when I read it but I remember reading it.
My 412S as a shotgun fires flawlessly, it leaves no marks on any of the primes and opens well all the time, even after 4 pounds of trap.
I remember shooting the 9.3x74R barrels a while ago and seeing some drag of the firing pins across the primers upon opening but never anything more than that.
My gun came with the shotgun barrels and the 9.3 barrels were added later I just thought the drag marks might be from the barrel changes.

I think Russ has you on the right track. He was my suggestion in the second post down.

Foxfire -

It was your original post that first put me in touch with Russ. It was Russ who put me in touch with Chris.

My gun was originally a .308/.308, and it was that set of barrels which first refused to open. And I mean REFUSED! The original seller (a Valmet dealer) in Calgary looked at it first, when I complained immediately after purchase. They said they fixed it, but they didn't.

A Valmet importer/warranty depot in NY looked at it next and said the problem was the barrels, so at full expense to me, they supplied another set, same caliber. The second set seems to perform even worse. (Or maybe I am just becoming more exasperated.)

All the other barrels were added shortly after the original purchase. I have used the 12 gauge barrels, and the 12 gauge/.223 barrels, but it has been 20 years since I used them last, so I can't recall if they were any different in their performances. I don't think they were, or I suspect I would have remembered.

At any rate, I will be interested in hearing Russ's advice at this point. I have already given Chris the "head's up" that they will likely be arriving on his door step.

Chris is pretty busy right now, so asked me not to ship for two weeks. In the meantime, I think I'll try to find some CCI #34 primers and try some ammo using them instead of the relatively soft-cupped Federals that I have been using.

Of course, if Russ advises otherwise, I will do whatever he suggests.

Foxfire -

Just got back from the range. Today I re-tested the 9,3x74 barrels, with both a lighter load (60 grains of H-4831, 286 gr.Norma Oryx bullets) AND TWO different primers...The #34 CCI and the standard WLR.

Am not sure whether it is the lighter load, or the different primers, but those combos work just fine...no more extruding of the primers back into the firing pin holes, and the 9,3 barrels now open easily after firing.

So, next week am going to try 61, 62, and 63 grains of H-4831 with the same bullets and primers.

Whichever one is the warmest of the three and which still works with no problems is the one for which I will re-regulate the barrels.

Also plan to take the .308/.308 barrel set to test, using loads with the CCI#34 primers.

Whatever happens, there will be no more of the Federal primers fired in this rifle. Their cups are simply too soft to function correctly in my gun.

AC
I hope the CCI #34 primers work for you.
Just out of curosity have you fired any factory 9,3, or 308 ammo in your rifle?

quote:

Originally posted by N E 450 No2:
AC
I hope the CCI #34 primers work for you.
Just out of curosity have you fired any factory 9,3, or 308 ammo in your rifle?

You must be peeking over my shoulder

I was just telling a friend I was shooting with today that I had never tried any modern factory 9,3 ammo in the rifle and would like to buy a box just to see how IT performs.

However, I have tried LOTS of .308 ammo in it and that NEVER performed correctly except _maybe_ the first two or three times I took the gun to the range when it was new. Now, the "catch" in that is: I can't remember what make(s) of ammo I was using when it was new. I suspect it was the same I used later, but can't be sure of that.

I do know that later I tried it numerous times with IVI-'74 Canadian 147-grain military ball, of which I used to have an unlimited free supply, renewed every week. That definitely did NOT work, It froze the action every time. It is _possible_ that because the 7.62x51 NATO is NOT exactly the same cartridge as the .308 Winchester, chamber-wise, it was generating excessive pressures in my gun.

I also tried numerous handloads later on in the .308 barrels, but it is could be they were all primed with Federal 210 primers. I used (and still use) many Federal match primers of both LR and SR sizes, because they are what I used to load my Palma ammo with when I was an active,competing Life Master rated Hi-Power shooter. (In Canada as in most other countries we hi-power (full-=bore)competitors did not fire rapid-fire matches, all shooting was prone slow-fire, so I never had to learn or worry about soft primer cups which might have been blamed in the U.S. for "slam-fires".)

Anyway, will know for sure if Winchester or CCI #34 primers solve the problems for the .308 barrels, come next Sunday. Will also post it here, just in case the info turns out to be useful for anyone at all.

I have shot a "fair" amount of Military ball, including quite a bit of IVI as well, with out problem, in many "civilian" 308's, but you are correct the "NATO" chamber and pressures are a little different.

Hopefully the harder CCI primers will solve your problem.

I wonder if there are any differences between "Shotgun" firing pins and "Rifle" firing pins in the V 412???

You might try getting an extra set of pins and shortening them a little bit at a time to see fif it makes a difference.

Also a rounder, broader, radius on the tip might make a difference.

quote:

Originally posted by N E 450 No2:
I have shot a "fair" amount of Military ball, including quite a bit of IVI as well, with out problem, in many "civilian" 308's, but you are correct the "NATO" chamber and pressures are a little different.

Hopefully the harder CCI primers will solve your problem.

I wonder if there are any differences between "Shotgun" firing pins and "Rifle" firing pins in the V 412???

You might try getting an extra set of pins and shortening them a little bit at a time to see fif it makes a difference.

Also a rounder, broader, radius on the tip might make a difference.

I think that is a good suggestion...it might also be that I could also use new pins as a guide to turn/harden/temper a couple of my own, which might fit a little bit tighter in the firing pin holes. That would likely help prevent a little of the flow-back/extrusion of primer cups into the firing pin holes.

I have also wondered if maybe the problem is partly that these actions were originally built primarily as shotgun actions and may just have firing pin holes which, though appropriate and completely adequate for shotgun pressures, are just a little big for robust rifle pressures?

If so, I may just have to restrict its diet to low pressure loadings, except maybe in the .223.....?