I'm still trying to talk myself into buying a double rifle. Since it will probably be the only one I ever hunt with, I am trying to optimize the choice over the likely game I will shoot.

As near as I can guess, the game I will shoot during the rest of my life will include 1 or 2 elephants, 3 or 4 buffalo, maybe a lion, and the rest probably antelope, for which I wouldn't use the double, in all likelihood.

I like lighter rifles (to carry), and don't like heavy recoil, though I have hunted successfully with a .458 Model 70. On the other hand, I believe in killing my own game and not relying on the PH to have an "adequate" rifle. Of course, I don't like spending money, and 9.3s are often less expensive.

Given these parameters, I wonder whether experienced double rifle hunters would choose the 9.3 or the 450/400. My guess is the .470 is too heavy, and needlessly powerful for what I intend to do. OTOH, some 450/400s are built on the same frame and are just as heavy.

450-400 hands down IMO, it has moderate recoil, lighter framed rifle (if you find the right make in modern DR) and a great DR for a scope. Only negative you already mentioned that is price. You will find a quality 9.3 for a lot less money. On the other hand I believe the 9.3 is sub marginal for elephant, I beleive the 375 is marginal for elephant. Maybe Will might pipe-in here, with his results 9.3 on ele cows. Others on AR have shot eles with the 9.3 no issues, Karamojo Bell shot them 6mm and 7mm calibers but that doesn't mean it's the best option today under far different circumstances. Even before you make a decision on the 450-400 on ele I'd watch Craig Boddington's video on elephant, Craig used a 450-400 on some of the frontal brain shots and a lot of those shots were good one's or very close to the brain but just watch the reaction of the bulls after the first shot, you will also see that side brain shots were not much of an issue, of course it's a lot easier target and penetration not as much of a factor as a frontal.

For me the 500 Heym I have is the best for buff and ele, my rifle weights 10.4 lbs so it's probably not much more than .5 to .75 lbs heavier than most modern 450-400's but the recoil level is not acceptable for most folk. Same could be said on some nice 470's weight wise you can find some in the 10 lb range. I shoot 450 grain Woodies on all non dangerous game anyway out to 125 yds with open sites with 53 yr old eyes. The recoil of this load is like a 450-400 so to me I have the best of both worlds.

INDY, Dirk makes a lot of sense in his post above! I too would go the 450/400NE 3" if I intended to take a few elephant. However other than the Elephant the 9.3X74R will serve well, but is not legal in all places for Buffalo, and ele, though I don't think anyone would deny you the use of the 9.3X74R double on buffalo.

My pair for Africa today, is a pair of Merkel double rifles. A Safari 140-2 470NE, and a 140E 9.3X74R. However I would rather have the 450/400NE 3" instead of the 470NE, because I don't nor can I afford to hunt elephant, and the 450/400NE 3" is a buffalo killer delux, yet is usable on most North American game as well, as is the 9.3X74R. If I were going to hunt no place other than North America, the 9.3X74R is the only double rifle I would own.

IMO, for the use you site, I'd go 450/400NE 3".
However I'd go new, and never look back!

Having owned 500,470,450,450/400,375,458 and 9.3x74, if I were to be limited to only one it would be a 450/400.

What everyone above said!

Because of the elephants, nothing less than the 450/400.

But get a light one. No sense in humping around a rifle equal to a 450 or 500 in weight but only shooting 400grs (rather than the 480 or 570grs of the other two.)

JPK

I have a 375 Flanged Searcy with a 1X6 scope, and a 500 NE that is almost finished and should be ready at the end of the year( As soon as I save for final payment). I would like to order a 450X400 3" in the near future with an integrated talley rib and mount a 1X6 scope.

If I was limited to own one rifle, it would be the 450X400 3" hands down, the reason I didn't get it first was that the 375 and 500NE were available and I feel my time clock ticking at 58 years of age and wanted to get some hunts under my belt instead of waiting for rifles to be built.

The two I have will suffice till the 450/400 can be built, and will be a better suited rifle for my later years.

quote:

Originally posted by 470drshooter:
I have a 375 Flanged Searcy with a 1X6 scope, and a 500 NE that is almost finished and should be ready at the end of the year( As soon as I save for final payment). I would like to order a 450X400 3" in the near future with an integrated talley rib and mount a 1X6 scope.

If I was limited to own one rifle, it would be the 450X400 3" hands down, the reason I didn't get it first was that the 375 and 500NE were available and I feel my time clock ticking at 58 years of age and wanted to get some hunts under my belt instead of waiting for rifles to be built.

The two I have will suffice till the 450/400 can be built, and will be a better suited rifle for my later years.

470drshooter,

So you have a 375 Flanged, a 500 NE being built, and lust for a 450/400.....just exactly where does your handle "470drshooter" come from?

Having owned both, this is my experience:

Had a lovely Liège-made double in 9.3x74. Handy, light, put both barrels in 1"-1.5" at 50m. Lots of factory ammo to choose from. Plenty enough to bag anything you would ever want to bag with a PH backing you up.

But it had that vicious rap during recoil, I just hated shooting it. Got rid of it and never regretted it for one second.

Got a 450/400. Heavier, more expensive, slower to swing around, less ammo (and more expensive...) to choose from, more expensive (MORE expensive).

A joy to shoot. A pleasure to feel it between your hands.

A keeper.

After all, guns are about shooting, aren't they? And if you don't enjoy shooting them, what's the point?

quote:

Had a lovely Liège-made double in 9.3x74. Handy, light, put both barrels in 1"-1.5" at 50m. Lots of factory ammo to choose from. Plenty enough to bag anything you would ever want to bag with a PH backing you up.

But it had that vicious rap during recoil, I just hated shooting it. Got rid of it and never regretted it for one second.

Pardon me for being foreign, but what is "rap during recoil"?

- Lars

quote:

Originally posted by Schauckis:

quote:

Had a lovely Liège-made double in 9.3x74. Handy, light, put both barrels in 1"-1.5" at 50m. Lots of factory ammo to choose from. Plenty enough to bag anything you would ever want to bag with a PH backing you up.

But it had that vicious rap during recoil, I just hated shooting it. Got rid of it and never regretted it for one second.

Pardon me for being foreign, but what is "rap during recoil"?

- Lars

Lars, "RAP" in this case is a slang American word meaning a HIT, thump, clout, punch, jab,or slug, as in hit you in the shoulder very hard!

.................

quote:

Had a lovely Liège-made double in 9.3x74. Handy, light, put both barrels in 1"-1.5" at 50m. Lots of factory ammo to choose from. Plenty enough to bag anything you would ever want to bag with a PH backing you up.

This I don't buy. A PH is human and even if he is a good shot, has an workable angle, stands his ground, has enough rifle, can see the problem, he will never be 100%. For elephant at least, a client ought to be using a 450NE or better. But if its the only or one of a few elephants he will ever hunt, well, no likely need for the specialty rifle. Won't know that until after the hunt though...

JPK

quote:

Originally posted by DuggaBoye:
Having owned 500,470,450,450/400,375,458 and 9.3x74, if I were to be limited to only one it would be a 450/400.

DuggaBoye:

I am not sure that was the original question but, if I were limited to just one double, it would be a .500/.416. Weights the same as a 450/400 but hits like a .470.

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Bush:

quote:

Originally posted by DuggaBoye:
Having owned 500,470,450,450/400,375,458 and 9.3x74, if I were to be limited to only one it would be a 450/400.

DuggaBoye:

I am not sure that was the original question but, if I were limited to just one double, it would be a .500/.416. Weights the same as a 450/400 but hits like a .470.

+1. A claw-mount or other detachable scoped 500/416 shoots flat enough for extended range and un-scoped, it still has the whallop for close up.

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Bush:

I am not sure that was the original question but, if I were limited to just one double, it would be a .500/.416. Weights the same as a 450/400 but hits like a .470.

With the 500/416 you're limited to one rifle manufacturer, aren't you?

quote:

Originally posted by tiggertate:

+1. A claw-mount or other detachable scoped 500/416 shoots flat enough for extended range and un-scoped, it still has the whallop for close up.

Tigertate:

What do you consider extended range?

Does anyone know how the trajectories of the 9.3x74, 450/400 and 500/416 stack up at 200 or 300 yards? I suspect that 200 yards would be an unusual shot on safari, though I took a Gemsbok once at 275, that the 9.3 and 450/400 are essentially the same, and that the 500/416 advantage wouldn't matter much until you are beyond 200.

quote:

Lars, "RAP" in this case is a slang American word meaning a HIT, thump, clout, punch, jab,or slug, as in hit you in the shoulder very hard!

Ah-ha.
Hard to believe a 9,3 would do that...
OK, my father's 9,3x62 had the same problem but it was well cured by fitting a new recoil pad.
If you have a 9,3x74 rapping then I'd say the (stock) fitment is poor, indeed.

Never shot a .450/400, though.

- Lars

quote:

Originally posted by Indy:

Tigertate:

What do you consider extended range?

For me that means inside 300 yds. I think the 500/416 is a very capable 400 yd round. I have a Fraser single shot in that caliber in the works (albeit very slowly). I also confess to being without my own double but I get to shoot and hunt with many friends' rifles. The 500/416 imressed me with it's ballistics and performance at distance. Having said all that, I know if you have an intrinsic understanding of your rifle's trajectory one can kill at extended ranges with much slower rounds. I was just stating a personal preference.

I have shot elephant and buff with a 450 No2, 450/400, and a 9,3x74R.

Baised on that, and what you said in your first post would recommend a 450/400.

I would also have claw scope mounts fitted.

I have shot a lot of American game, deer pigs black bear, and caribouas well as buff and bull elephant with my 450/400 before it was scoped.

With the scope I have shot warthog, zebra, baboon, a couple of pigs and a lion.

I should have scoped it the day I bought it.

With 300gr bullets at @2330fps it makes a great deer and pig gun with less recoil than the 400gr loads.

quote:

Originally posted by Indy:

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Bush:

I am not sure that was the original question but, if I were limited to just one double, it would be a .500/.416. Weights the same as a 450/400 but hits like a .470.

With the 500/416 you're limited to one rifle manufacturer, aren't you?

Chapuis, Krieghoff, Blaser and a few smaller makers produce the 500/416

Good round, just less availability.

The 500/416 is offered by Heym in addition to those listed above. It isn't a one-gun caliber anymore. The trade-off is, of course, more recoil. But no worse that the 416 Rigby, 416 Remington or the rest of the 400 gr @ 2400 fps crowd.

quote:

Originally posted by tiggertate:
The 500/416 is offered by Heym in addition to those listed above.

Yep

Duh, Senior moment, on my part.

quote:

Originally posted by AzGuy:

quote:

Originally posted by 470drshooter:
I have a 375 Flanged Searcy with a 1X6 scope, and a 500 NE that is almost finished and should be ready at the end of the year( As soon as I save for final payment). I would like to order a 450X400 3" in the near future with an integrated talley rib and mount a 1X6 scope.

If I was limited to own one rifle, it would be the 450X400 3" hands down, the reason I didn't get it first was that the 375 and 500NE were available and I feel my time clock ticking at 58 years of age and wanted to get some hunts under my belt instead of waiting for rifles to be built.

The two I have will suffice till the 450/400 can be built, and will be a better suited rifle for my later years.

470drshooter,

So you have a 375 Flanged, a 500 NE being built, and lust for a 450/400.....just exactly where does your handle "470drshooter" come from?

Well my moniker was posted before I obtained any rifles. I was going to get a 470 but when the 375 became available I went for it.

The same came with the 500 NE and after research, thought it would be better suited for Elephant and Cape Buffalo.

After shooting several rifles in different calibers decided that the battery of 375 Flanged, 450/400 3" and 500 NE would cover anything you wanted to hunt.

Plus why limit yourself to one.