Can someone please shed some light on this, I have a Beretta 9,3x74r O/U , trying to find out at what distance and with what load this was regulated at factory... I have NO!!! response from Beretta or there resellers..

I don't know, but if you buy an English double rifle you don't know either..What you do is go shoot it at 50 yards, 75 yards and at 100 yards and then you will know..but this has nothing to do with regulation, this is POI or sight in..

Regulation is how close the bullets land together, again try it at 50 and 75..It will be one or the other...If the bullets cross you have too much powder, if they spread apart too much you need to add a grain or two. Do this until they come together..

But first you must shoot a group or two with each individual barrel so you will know just how accurate your double is..It is only as accurate as the "WORST" barrel..The worst barrel group will be your goal in regulation or POI..

Welcome to the forum.
The first thing is to get some ammo and shoot it. Most any 285/286 gr load should work. I would try Norma 285 Grain Oryx Protected Point
For starters as there is a good chance that is what Beretta used. When you find a Factory load that groups and shoots to the sights you will need to chronograph that load so you can duplicate it when you hand load. Loading for a double is not the same as loading for your bolt gun.
When you shoot from a bench do not let the gun touch any part of the bench or bags. The gun must be free to recoil naturally or you won’t get good results.
Re read Ray’s post. Good to see you on Ray.
Bill

Is it a Silver Sable or Gold Sable ? Both were known good shooters.

I agree, 285 or 286gn loads is most likely.

I'd try Norma, RWS for starters and see which is closer.

Hi, thanks for the replys so far... it is a gold sable... which I got for a steal.... once I have got it grouping well... I want to sell or swap to buy something larger....

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
I don't know, but if you buy an English double rifle you don't know either..What you do is go shoot it at 50 yards, 75 yards and at 100 yards and then you will know..but this has nothing to do with regulation, this is POI or sight in..

Regulation is how close the bullets land together, again try it at 50 and 75..It will be one or the other...If the bullets cross you have too much powder, if they spread apart too much you need to add a grain or two. Do this until they come together..

But first you must shoot a group or two with each individual barrel so you will know just how accurate your double is..It is only as accurate as the "WORST" barrel..The worst barrel group will be your goal in regulation or POI..

Just thought I would add a bit here. I think Ray is spot on in his advice. I spent some time in Germany back in the 80's, had a hunting licence, and shot quite a few different firearms, bolts, singles, doubles, triples, etc. Also visited that famous gun making town in Austria, Ferlach, and went to the equally ancient and old shooting range. My german friends were having various firearms made at the time so we did a bit of range work with the gunmakers. I noticed when shooting any firearm they had wall mounted air blowers on the walls just above the gun racks. With out fail between each shot they allowed the guns to stand and cool.
You might say that this does not mirror hunting conditions, but in Germany, Austria, and probably other European countries it does. There is no such thing as blazing off multiple shots at game as we might in some of our countries outside Europe where we need our firearms to be accurate even when hot.

I don't shoot doubles but just wonder if barrel heat is considered much when doing as Ray suggests above?

Well how does it shoot?

I have not yet determined the X/over/regulated range yet but with RWS amo 286gr it shoots about 3" apart at 30m but each barell groups well, infact the holes touch each other... now it is to determine the regulated range...This amo is doing 2430 fps which I feel is a bit fast... I was hoping to sort out a load with 300gr doing 2300 + - then it may be worth something ...I was told this is similar to a 375 H&H when I purchased it , fact is it is nowhere near....Absolutly fantastic rifle but lacks grunt ....

All Beretta 9.3 x 74 R double rifles are regulated with heavy bullets, 286g.

quote:

Originally posted by Bandedsolid:
Absolutly fantastic rifle but lacks grunt ....

Funny, I've seen these rifles / calibres flatten Big bull buffalo.

It has plenty of grunt.

Good day 500N yep a 9,3 can bring down a buff... and I have seen it ... but when things go wrong ...they go wrong big time.... the 9,3 at best is equivelent to a 300 H&H .... I do this for a living ....the 9,3 at the time was a steal... but fills a space in my safe better suited to something a little more powerfull... what it has done is get me in-to doubles...It would be OK for a client when being backed by a PH with something more substantial...anyway... it is not actually legal in many countries for Buff and Elephant..375 being the minimum..

For info from RWS
9.3 x 74 R Bullet: UNI Classic 19.0 g
Distance: 0m 50m 100m 150m 200m 250m 300m
V[m/s]: 695 666 637 610 582 556 531
E[J]: 4589 4214 3855 3535 3218 2973 2679

375 H&H Magnum Bullet: KS 19.4 g
Distance: 0m 50m 100m 150m 200m 250m 300m
V[m/s]: 790 754 719 684 651 619 587
E[J]: 6054 5515 5015 4538 4111 3717 3342

quote:

Originally posted by Bandedsolid:
but when things go wrong ...they go wrong big time.... the 9,3 at best is equivelent to a 300 H&H .... I do this for a living ....the 9,3 at the time was a steal... but fills a space in my safe better suited to something a little more powerfull... what it has done is get me in-to doubles...It would be OK for a client when being backed by a PH with something more substantial...anyway... it is not actually legal in many countries for Buff and Elephant..375 being the minimum..

Banded solid

when things go wrong you need a 500 or a 577 to sort it out, for all practical purposes the 375 H&H and the 9,3x74r fills the same niche as a medium bore, it is not a stopper by any measure but it can get the job done, if you learn to do your part.
if you do this for a living please be careful with playing around to much with loading this caliber, as you might get an interesting situation with a frosen gun and now way to sort out the situation.

best

peter

quote:

Originally posted by Bandedsolid:
Good day 500N yep a 9,3 can bring down a buff... and I have seen it ... but when things go wrong ...they go wrong big time.... the 9,3 at best is equivelent to a 300 H&H .... I do this for a living ....the 9,3 at the time was a steal... but fills a space in my safe better suited to something a little more powerfull... what it has done is get me in-to doubles...It would be OK for a client when being backed by a PH with something more substantial...anyway... it is not actually legal in many countries for Buff and Elephant..375 being the minimum..

Yes, understand.

Have shot a few Buff with the 62, 64 and 74,
all good but as you say, when it goes wrong,
it goes wrong.

.

did you really say equivalent to a 300H&H? I hope you meant 375H&H.

I have not read of an African country having issues with a client using a 9,3x63 or X74R on DG. I have, however, read literally hundreds of accounts of DG being cleanly killed with a single shot or with an insurance round.

Thanks for providing the humor...

Rich
DRSS

Idaho Sharpshooter..... contrary to popular belief, the 9,3x74r is not near the 375H&H, if you look a little further back in the thread you will see I actually posted tables from RWS....yes it is closer to 300H&H (the facts are there) Bell shot many Elephant with a 7x57 ... I shot two Elephant when I was 22 with a 7,62 FN ... (1982) both went down with one shot each. Remember that I am talking specifically about Elephant and Buff ... where even 375 is just marginal.. Lion and Leopard are a lot softer,,,, but I would still not like to take on an angry lion with a 9,3 ...

Also Idaho Sharpshooter, you obviously do not know the laws in some African Countries....in RSA for instance the minimum calibur for Buff and Elephant is 375 H&H... period...this is the same for Namibia....

quote:

Originally posted by Bandedsolid:
Remember that I am talking specifically about Elephant and Buff ... where even 375 is just marginal.. Lion and Leopard are a lot softer,,,, but I would still not like to take on an angry lion with a 9,3 ...

It is better to use a 375H&H and shoot it well than use something bigger and shoot it badly.


No one likes to take anything angry on with anything, but when you do, you use what you have in your hand at the time.

3 Charges, 2 of which I had a 338 WM in my hands, one turned with one shot at 15 ft, the other dropped with one shot at 22 ft.

It wouldn't have mattered what I had in my hands (within reason), the result would have been the same.

.

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
did you really say equivalent to a 300H&H? I hope you meant 375H&H.

I have not read of an African country having issues with a client using a 9,3x63 or X74R on DG. I have, however, read literally hundreds of accounts of DG being cleanly killed with a single shot or with an insurance round.

Thanks for providing the humor...

Rich
DRSS

Rich the 9.3X74R is very close to the 375Flanged, but sorely lacking when compared to the 375 H&H with proper 300 gr loads.

There are several countries in the Africa that limit the Buffalo, and elephant to a 375H&H minimum. This is not the case in Zimbabwe however. As far as I know only Tanzania require the 375H&H as minimum for lion as well as buffalo, and elephant. Leopard are legal with the 9.3s in every country I'm aware of.

Bandedsolid, I see by your screen name here you are a fan of monolithic solds. If that is the case, you need to be very carefull what monolithic solid you use in a double rifle.

quote:

Originally posted by Bandedsolid:
Also Idaho Sharpshooter, you obviously do not know the laws in some African Countries....in RSA for instance the minimum calibur for Buff and Elephant is 375 H&H... period...this is the same for Namibia....

There are a lot of things that ISS does not know.

Hi MacD37 ... perhaps you can shed some light,,,I use mainly GS Custom in my 416 Rigby..and they have proven to be rather reliable... with low preasure, actually you can take one and tap it all the way through without much effort... I am expecting some for the 9.3 soon , I believe that the solids are dangerous on doubles but I only have experience with them on Bolt rifles (375,416,7mm RM) this is my first attemp to load for a double .... I cant see the GSC causing any damage, I did use Barnes for 10 rounds and felt it was a bit rough and was also warned to try something with less preasure... I have even been warned to stay away from Rhino solids....any way this thred has goten away from the original objective.... Now it has become "Advise on reloading doubles" so any logical and credible advice would be welcome.....

quote:

Originally posted by Bandedsolid:
Hi MacD37 ... perhaps you can shed some light,,,I use mainly GS Custom in my 416 Rigby..and they have proven to be rather reliable... with low preasure, actually you can take one and tap it all the way through without much effort... I am expecting some for the 9.3 soon , I believe that the solids are dangerous on doubles but I only have experience with them on Bolt rifles (375,416,7mm RM) this is my first attemp to load for a double .... I cant see the GSC causing any damage, I did use Barnes for 10 rounds and felt it was a bit rough and was also warned to try something with less preasure... I have even been warned to stay away from Rhino solids....any way this thred has goten away from the original objective.... Now it has become "Advise on reloading doubles" so any logical and credible advice would be welcome.....

I'd strongly suggest looking back through all the threads I this DR forum
where heaps of discussions have been had on Mono / Banded / you name it bullets / solids
for DR's.

And BEFORE you cause any damage to your double.

.

quote:

Originally posted by Bandedsolid:
Good day 500N yep a 9,3 can bring down a buff... and I have seen it ... but when things go wrong ...they go wrong big time.... the 9,3 at best is equivelent to a 300 H&H .... I do this for a living ....the 9,3 at the time was a steal... but fills a space in my safe better suited to something a little more powerfull... what it has done is get me in-to doubles...It would be OK for a client when being backed by a PH with something more substantial...anyway... it is not actually legal in many countries for Buff and Elephant..375 being the minimum..

Bandedsolid,
If you do this for a living then I am sure you have seen a Buff or ele soak up multiple .450,.470,.500, ect. rounds. Without being knocked over and sometimes without much of a flinch. As far as the so called stopping power of larger rounds, think of Newtons law---every action has an equal and opposite reaction. That bullet can not hit with more total force than it exerted on the rifle and your body. Think of shooting an eland with a .375 H&H. It won't knock it backwards even the energy exerted per pound of animal is huge compared to the energy exerted per pound of animal with a .500N.E. on an ele. What is important is penetration in the right place. There is no doubt a good solid in a 9.3X74R will shoot completely through a buff or ele. The 9.3X74R (.366 cal.) has less power than the larger rounds but also has less frontal surface area. Less frontal surface area means it takes less energy than a larger diameter round to get the same penetration. Once you get full penetration the only advantage for larger diameter solid rounds is a larger wound channel which mainly quickens death from blood loss. As Bell showed with his little 7X57 (even less frontal surface area and even less energy) all you need is penetration in the right area to drop over 1,000 ele and and live to tell some tales.

GoShoot, I understand your point....however there are many factors concerning terminal balistics that you may not understand..what a larger diameter calibur does for you is allow you marging for error... hear is a practical experiment for you....Take a large plastic bottle + - 2L, fill it with water... stand it on a pole.. shoot it with.. lets say a 308 from 50m then measure the distance of the furtherst spray of water... now take a 470 and do the same. You will notice a considerabe increase in the distace between the two..This is caused by the water parting to allow the projectile through...Yes I do this for a living... Rather strange thing happens over time... your choice of calibur increses as the size of the teeth, horns and feet that want to kill you increase..Most elephant I do start with a charge .... Bigger is better...period...Newton was never charged by a buff... if he was he would rethink his law and leave apples alone.Anyway from your respone I can see you aint dun this yet....Anyway.. my objective on this site is to learnhow to reload for doubles.

Yep .. and most of us have heard how many elephansts bell shot with a 7x57 ... no where is it written how many he wounded or were compleatly lost and never found. He was a dumb ass, that was either recoil shy or new nothing better.

Another pratical example .... imaguine you had a .375 rod with one end sharpened... and you stabbed someone through the lungs..(Missing the spine) Then you shoot someone with a 375 ....Who would die faster...... Speed and the actual diameter is what does the job better..Weight and Length gives you directional stability and penatration ..at 10m the larger the bore the safer I feel... strange coincidence... this is the same feeling many experienced PH's have.

quote:

Originally posted by Bandedsolid:

Yep .. and most of us have heard how many elephansts bell shot with a 7x57 ... no where is it written how many he wounded or were compleatly lost and never found. He was a dumb ass, that was either recoil shy or new nothing better.

Interesting call from someone with 11 posts, especially saying Bell "was either recoil shy or new nothing better."

quote:

Originally posted by Bandedsolid:
Hi MacD37 ... perhaps you can shed some light,,,I use mainly GS Custom in my 416 Rigby..and they have proven to be rather reliable... with low preasure, actually you can take one and tap it all the way through without much effort... I am expecting some for the 9.3 soon , I believe that the solids are dangerous on doubles but I only have experience with them on Bolt rifles (375,416,7mm RM) this is my first attemp to load for a double .... I cant see the GSC causing any damage, I did use Barnes for 10 rounds and felt it was a bit rough and was also warned to try something with less preasure... I have even been warned to stay away from Rhino solids....any way this thred has goten away from the original objective.... Now it has become "Advise on reloading doubles" so any logical and credible advice would be welcome.....

IMO the first thing you need to do is slug your barrels to make sure they are the proper dimensions, and select the mono bullet the fits the tightest barrel. Secondly, the bullets like the GS custom, and the North Fork are basically the same type, and are the least stressful on double rifle barrels, which are most often much thinner walled that your bolt rifle barrels.

There are many who claim that OSR (Over Stressed Rifling) doesn't exist, and you will find some very aggressive people who disbelieve the existence of OSR. As 500N says there are plenty of opinions on both sides of this issue on the internet. My take however is that why take the chance of damaging a very expensive rifle with one type of bullet while the market place has so many choices.

GSC and NF bullets are properly designed for use in double rifles IMO, by being "BORE RIDERS"
, meaning the rifling engraves only the pressure rings, and the rifling never actually touches the solid shank of the bullet, as long as the bore is of proper dimensions! Many of the other mono bullets have pressure rings, but IMO, the rings are to wide for use in double rifles.

The fact is it is your rifle, and you may use what ever floats your canoe, but I would proceed with caution!

quote:

Originally posted by 500N:

quote:

Originally posted by Bandedsolid:

Yep .. and most of us have heard how many elephansts bell shot with a 7x57 ... no where is it written how many he wounded or were compleatly lost and never found. He was a dumb ass, that was either recoil shy or new nothing better.

Interesting call from someone with 11 posts, especially saying Bell "was either recoil shy or new nothing better."

I have never been able to work out why so many folks seem to draw some correlation between the number of posts someone has made on AR and that persons knowledge.

Harry Selby has made a "few" posts on this site. that does not however mean that I would not seriously take on board what he says, compared to another who has made maybe 20x more.

This site is not the Holy Grail of all that is hunting, although there is a wealth of knowledge to be gained if one is to weed out the crap.

quote:

Yep .. and most of us have heard how many elephansts bell shot with a 7x57 ... no where is it written how many he wounded or were compleatly lost and never found. He was a dumb ass, that was either recoil shy or new nothing better.

Big words Bandedsolid to make the statement you've made above and you seem to be asserting this from either first hand knowledge of Bell or access to the written word that others don't seem to have. Lets front up please.

Bell developed a method of hunting and brain shooting elephants with his 6.5 and 7mm calibre small bores almost unique to him although Pondoro Taylor used a similar method in some of the areas he hunted in too using a 318 WR.

No where has anyone claimed Bell wounded animals as you assert. By all accounts of others who knew him he was a cool, calm and very accurate shot with a rifle. For the type of hunting he did and the excellent shot he was, he had no need for large calibres.
Not that anyone really knows if Bell was recoil shy but it is the mark of a man to at least admit it and adopt a rifle that he can handle well. Even the great Jack O'Connor was reputedly recoil shy but who is going to call him a dumb ass?

quote:

Originally posted by John Frederick:
I have never been able to work out why so many folks seem to draw some correlation between the number of posts someone has made on AR and that persons knowledge.

Harry Selby has made a "few" posts on this site. that does not however mean that I would not seriously take on board what he says, compared to another who has made maybe 20x more.

This site is not the Holy Grail of all that is hunting, although there is a wealth of knowledge to be gained if one is to weed out the crap.

OK, I should have added "along with some of the things / comments he has posted"


But in general on these forums, I think you have to build a bit of cred before you start making very left field comments or you are likely to be called a troll.

We have had quite a few on here over the years, on this (the DR Forum) and the Big Bore forum
(especially recently) making wild comments.

If Harry Selby only made a few posts and signed off as Harry Selby, I doubt many would have a problem but he's been there, done that and people know.

Bandedsolid makes some wild comments but hasn't as yet shown he has been there and done that
which on this forum most of all is important.


Just my HO.

.

quote:

Originally posted by Bandedsolid:
GoShoot, I understand your point....however there are many factors concerning terminal balistics that you may not understand..what a larger diameter calibur does for you is allow you marging for error... hear is a practical experiment for you....Take a large plastic bottle + - 2L, fill it with water... stand it on a pole.. shoot it with.. lets say a 308 from 50m then measure the distance of the furtherst spray of water... now take a 470 and do the same. You will notice a considerabe increase in the distace between the two..This is caused by the water parting to allow the projectile through...Yes I do this for a living... Rather strange thing happens over time... your choice of calibur increses as the size of the teeth, horns and feet that want to kill you increase..Most elephant I do start with a charge .... Bigger is better...period...Newton was never charged by a buff... if he was he would rethink his law and leave apples alone.Anyway from your respone I can see you aint dun this yet....Anyway.. my objective on this site is to learnhow to reload for doubles.

Yep .. and most of us have heard how many elephansts bell shot with a 7x57 ... no where is it written how many he wounded or were compleatly lost and never found. He was a dumb ass, that was either recoil shy or new nothing better.

Bandedsolid,

My apologies, I did not know I was addressing someone more knowledgeable about physics than Sir Isaac Newton and more knowledgeable about ele hunting than Bell. I will surely convey to all the physicists who have used Newtons laws for the past 500 years that he and they are mistaken. I can't understand however how they were able to use such incorrect equations to calculate trajectories to put a man on the moon. And that old fool Bell only shot 10 or 15 elephants at one time (time and time again.) I'm sure you have much more experience.

I applaud your knowledge about shooting water bottles, you must be an expert in such matters. I surely don't know as much as you about killing water but I have shot a bottle or two. You are correct my .470 (which has killed ele and buff with my handloads) will spray water 5 to 10 feet farther than my 30-06. Please use your knowledge of Physics to calculate the energy necessary to spray water 5 to 10 feet as this must be the margin of error your example proves. Bigger is not better period. The .600NE is known to have had penetration problems due to its large frontal surface area.

If you were shot in battle would you rather be hit in the shoulder with a 50BMG or hit in the head with a .223? The 50BMG will likely only kill you due to blood loss and it will take some time. The shock of this extremely powerful half inch round hitting you in the shoulder is unlikely to cause your immediate death. Things are quite different with the .223 to the head, you are likely to be dead before you hit the ground.

Personally I don't have as much experience as Bell or even some of the posters on this forum. I have seen a lot of film footage of ele hit in the head with big caliber bullets when the brain was missed. Sometimes they go down stunned but get right up. But often they show no effect. Since its not legal these days I have not seen film of eles hit in the head with smaller diameter rounds so I can't predict the effect. Bell was good but he must have missed on occasion. I wonder if some of his his 7X57 misses slowed them down any to give time for a second shot.

To stop a charging animal cold you must hit the brain or spinal cord to cut off electrical signals to the muscles or break down the skeletal support leg(s) or shoulder(s). Heart and lung shots can take far too long in a close charge. As Bell showed even the lowly 7X57 in an ele brain stops them cold. The larger calibers however will break down skeletal support better than smaller calibers because they make a bigger hole in the bone, not because of the shock value.

Now I like big bores myself which is why I own a .470 Its fun to carry and shoot the big bores. Except for oversize calibers like the .600NE (of which I have no personal experience but of which I hear troubling things about their penetration from reliable sources) I am not arguing that big calibers aren't wise to use on big game. All I am saying is that so many ele and buff have been killed for many decades by 9.3X74R, 9.3X62, ect. it is foolish to think it is not a viable round for the average hunter who likely is more accurate with it than with a big bore.

quote:

Originally posted by Bandedsolid:
I am talking specifically about Elephant and Buff ... where even 375 is just marginal.. Lion and Leopard are a lot softer,,,, but I would still not like to take on an angry lion with a 9,3 ...

This makes a lot of sense. Hell, I'd hate the idea of taking on an angry Lion with any rifle..
However, during August during some tracking in thick riverine bush, we bumped into a sleeping Lion at 15 meters. When it awoke It didn't look all that pleased with our presents. We gently backed out with 425 and 458 at shoulder.
I now wonder if a fast handling 9.3 double would have been a better option over the heavy calibred bolt rifle?

If you want to know how to relode for your rifle go back and read my earlier post.
If you want to stop the banter post your real name and the name of your safari companey and come see us at the DRSS meating in Dallas in Jan.
Bill

quote:

Originally posted by goshoot:

Bandedsolid,

My apologies, I did not know I was addressing someone more knowledgeable about physics than Sir Isaac Newton and more knowledgeable about ele hunting than Bell. I will surely convey to all the physicists who have used Newtons laws for the past 500 years that he and they are mistaken. I can't understand however how they were able to use such incorrect equations to calculate trajectories to put a man on the moon. And that old fool Bell only shot 10 or 15 elephants at one time (time and time again.) I'm sure you have much more experience.

I applaud your knowledge about shooting water bottles, you must be an expert in such matters. I surely don't know as much as you about killing water but I have shot a bottle or two. You are correct my .470 (which has killed ele and buff with my handloads) will spray water 5 to 10 feet farther than my 30-06. Please use your knowledge of Physics to calculate the energy necessary to spray water 5 to 10 feet as this must be the margin of error your example proves. Bigger is not better period. The .600NE is known to have had penetration problems due to its large frontal surface area.

If you were shot in battle would you rather be hit in the shoulder with a 50BMG or hit in the head with a .223? The 50BMG will likely only kill you due to blood loss and it will take some time. The shock of this extremely powerful half inch round hitting you in the shoulder is unlikely to cause your immediate death. Things are quite different with the .223 to the head, you are likely to be dead before you hit the ground.

Personally I don't have as much experience as Bell or even some of the posters on this forum. I have seen a lot of film footage of ele hit in the head with big caliber bullets when the brain was missed. Sometimes they go down stunned but get right up. But often they show no effect. Since its not legal these days I have not seen film of eles hit in the head with smaller diameter rounds so I can't predict the effect. Bell was good but he must have missed on occasion. I wonder if some of his his 7X57 misses slowed them down any to give time for a second shot.

To stop a charging animal cold you must hit the brain or spinal cord to cut off electrical signals to the muscles or break down the skeletal support leg(s) or shoulder(s). Heart and lung shots can take far too long in a close charge. As Bell showed even the lowly 7X57 in an ele brain stops them cold. The larger calibers however will break down skeletal support better than smaller calibers because they make a bigger hole in the bone, not because of the shock value.

Now I like big bores myself which is why I own a .470 Its fun to carry and shoot the big bores. Except for oversize calibers like the .600NE (of which I have no personal experience but of which I hear troubling things about their penetration from reliable sources) I am not arguing that big calibers aren't wise to use on big game. All I am saying is that so many ele and buff have been killed for many decades by 9.3X74R, 9.3X62, ect. it is foolish to think it is not a viable round for the average hunter who likely is more accurate with it than with a big bore.

Bandedsolid, the above is simply a long-winded sarcastic post to say "YOU ARE FULL OF SHIzin"! I don't agree with that but that is what the guy is saying with a full dictionary of words, words that hold no more credibility than your post he is discounting.
Continue on, your opinion is equal to all others who have an opposite view. These forums are for the EXCHANGE of ideas, not lock step adhearence to one idea, or OPINION!

Goshoot, the history of Bell's score was written by BELL. That alone shoud say something to you about it's accuracy. If you think he shot all those ele without loosing a few, then I think you are very mistaken.

I doubt any of the old time ele hunters, who were nothing more than poachers and law breakers for the most part, would have listed the ones they wounded, and lost in that account of unwitnessed numbers they claim, again if you believe those accounts as 100% truth, you would be a little naive.

In the first place those guys hunted far and wide on foot, and they certainly would not follow up a wounded ele for miles when they had ten on the ground to work on,and the one lost cost them nothing, unlike a hunter today. addtionally in some cases they needed get out of the country before the officials got wise to their poaching (unsancioned ivory taking).

There are plenty of references to Bells dislike of recoil in old writers of Bell's day. That in your post, finally say is simply an indication of why he chose the 7mm for his shooting ability being better with a light recoiling rifle. His use of that type of rifle doesn't change physics somehow making it a good idea to use rifles that are too light for the job, as the BELL followers try to make a case for.

What I'm saying here is, because you disagree doesn't make you right. Physics can't explain all things. What bullet and velocity kills one buffalo or elephant doesn't make the case that those same conditions with the same placement will do it every time. Some animals just like some humans seem to survive wounds that have killed thousands of others with the same wounds. Physics can only be made to do the exact same thing under the exact controlled set of circumstances. Buffalo and other animals are not always the same so that the same placement on one may be perfect on one but off a little on the other. Bandedsolid's statement that Newton never tried to stop a Cape buffalo holds water, because I think, there, all his rules would go out the window.

Your 223 in the head may or may not make him dead before he hit the ground, and if it doesn’t, why do you think a 50BMG wouldn't do more damage than your 223. Try both calibers placed in the same place, you choose shoulder, or head, and see what the difference is. Simply because you hit the head doesn't mean you hit the brain, but if a miss of the brain in a head shot which would YOU rather be hit with? In that case which do you think would be most likely to kill you?

I'm not saying that any of these chamberings cannot total up an impressive kill count, they certainly can, but back to your physics they aren't as likely to do the job as something larger. Regardless of chambering wounded animals will happen when you start talking about a head count in the thousands. Simply because they omitted the wounded and lost animals doesn't mean they didn't exist! Only in a dream world would anyone think that out of the large numbers claimed, there weren't lost animals, regardless of the calibers used!

Nobody in his right mind would say Bell was a idiot,but in most people's opinion his use of very small chamberings was because he didn't like to shoot heavy recoiling rifles, so he used something he could tollerate and shoot well. There is a reference to Bell ordering a pair of big bore double rifles from H&H, but when he shot them at the factory, he changed his mind, and let H&H sell them to someone else. I think that was in one of Taylor's books but I'm not sure where I read it. Shekari may be able to point to where that was written. My 74 yr old memory has too much crap stored in there to remember evrything I ever read.

MacD37.. now that is some writing... no sarcasim intende and i enjoyed every word...and will print this and keep this for prosperity. Who knows I may even meet you one day, I will be in Dallas in Januarry.

Shooting water bottles... thank goodness they dont charge but it does ilistrate a point, no matter how inaccurate it is. Something that does plage the PH's in Africa is the stories that are written many years back and then read by some guy trying to gain knowledge. Then comes to Africa with his favourite calibur...and finds out IT IS JUST enough gun... Even my 416 is frowned apon but that is the amount of recoil my small frame can stand, the day I need to go smaller I will stick to plains game.....Anyway... I am finding out all the info I need to set up my 9,3 befor I part with it. Thanks for your input....

PS - If you want to make a PH happy ... pitch up in Africa with something you shoot well... not something that makes you search for asprin.

500N
I came onto this forum trying to get some info, but had many clever dicks telling that the 9.3 was fine for the Job.... Hell all I wanted was to find out how to regulate the dam thing... or actually reload for it... I dont need to prove anything to you or anyone els on this site.. been doing this with bolt rifles for longer than I care to remember..... The arogance and general lack of practical knowledge on the subject at hand is asstounding ... however there have been a few rather imprortant points made on reloading for the 9,3 .... I dont intend to disclose my identity on this site... but it is quite possible that we have actually met, perhaps in Zim somewhere Hell, my favourite calibur should give me away....(if you know the industry)

MacD37, from all accounts both Bell and Pondoro Taylor found than when shooting Elephant from a platform to get above the long 'elephant grass', anything with much recoil could not be used. Generally only the head was in view so a clear brain shot with a small calibre did the job. There are no flies on the 6.5 and 7mm heavy round nose solids for penetration.

Both of these hunters, especially Bell made a good study of the elephants head and body anatomy and knew exactly where the brain or heart/lungs were.

It appears Taylor only used the platform method briefly in one area he was hunting whereas Bell specialized in this but also according to his writings did use body shots. Remember of course back in those days they had vast resources in terms of the natives to track and find as well as endless time to do so. Not like the modern hunter.

Now in general to the many posts on this topic. At the end of the day these two great hunters along with a few others shot huge numbers of African animals under fairly arduous conditions compared to today. Sure like all 'honest' hunters they must have wounded some but who then, or today, relates this in writings or on forums such as this.

Even though Bell, Taylor, Hunter, Selby and the like had different styles, we can never take away the fact they collectively had more experience and success than probably all those who subscribe to this or any other forum.

I find it quite sad when anyone feels the need to deride their exploits and sully their name when most are no longer here to speak.

quote:

Originally posted by eagle27:
I find it quite sad when anyone feels the need to deride their exploits and sully their name when most are no longer here to speak.

Eagle nobody is sullying Bell's name just stating facts! It was well known by the gun makers that Bell was recoil shy, and supplied him with what he wanted. There is nothing wrong with being recoil shy, many folks are, and in his day the law allowed him to use what he shot best. Today it doesn't allow it, and over time it has been found that the legal arms are not only there to protect the hunting party, but to insure a clean kill without a lot of lost animals. I have a very good friend who posts on this site that has taken elephant with a 9.3X74R double rifle, but it was where it was legal though the absolute minimum. Still there were many who thought this was folly, and for most hunters it would be, buy not for this guy, I doubt even Bell could place bullets better than Tony.

Can you imagine anyone today building a platform, or packing a step ladder to hunt elephant? Bell hunted in a very different time than we see today. Many of the ele Bell hunted had never even seen a human being, or heard a firearm shot, and it was far easier to get very close to them as a result.

As you say there is nothing wrong with the 7mm and the like where penetration is concerned, and when one has time to place his shots very precisely a hit in the brain or heart will kill anything that walks the earth. It is when the shot is not that well placed that the trouble starts. The laws are as they are for a reason, and because many thousands of ele have been taken with firearms that are now illegal, it is not good reasoning to use them today simply because Bell did. That is the objection to this kind of thread. The young guys just starting out hear folks quote Bell's use of the 7mm for elephant to justify their wanting to use the same type of rifle for that purpose. These hunters who want this are not BELL, and they will never have the conditions that Bell and all the others of his day had.

Today the client hunter will spend at most 21 days in the bush to hunt elephant, and if he is lucky he will take ONE elephant. If he makes his shot count, he has a pair of tusks to take home along with a little leather, and hair bracelet. If, however his shot is not perfect the extra power of the LEGAL chambering gives him a better chance of going home with his ivory, but with the illegal rifle he may loose everything including his life, but at least his trophy and left with only one thing, a bill for the trophy fee for the elephant he shot, and lost into the national park or out of his concession where he isn't allowed to follow.

The fact is to sight only the kills of using such rifles encourages young guys to try this trick today, and to justify the use of chamberings that are not well suited, or even legal for hunting elephant. The farmers, and part time ivory hunters even in Bells day who lost large numbers of animals following Bell's lead, and many killed in the process is something that needs looking at before blindly recommending such rifles. I personally think threads like this one that basically condone his use of little rifles, without knowing both sides of the what he actually killed and collected, and what he killed and lost is irresponsible.

Like you, and several others here I would hunt buffalo with many rifles that are considered too small, and are in fact illegal for buffalo, because I know buffalo, but I'm not an ele hunter nor should anyone recommend Bell's antics to someone just going on his first safari for elephant, or even buffalo.

The old guys lived in a different time that we will never see again, and anyone who wants to take on close cover elephant with a 7mm Mauser today is a little light in the brain pan, IMO!

MacD37,

You can't compare us sport hunters to guys like Bell. It's like comparing a guy going fox hunting with a call and a decoy to a guy setting leg hold traps to sell the fox pelts. Back then elephants were considered at worst a pest and at best an endless resource. Lost wounded game was mourned more for the lost $ than anything else.

Check out this month's article by Harry Selby about him using Bell's 7X57 to kill two buff in the 1970's. He also relates choosing this rifle for his teenage daughter to take a bull elephant with 50lb ivory. Selby uses Bell's rifle

I can only assume Bandedsolid would consider Selby a "dumb ass" like Bell. Personally I prefer a big bore open sight double up close, in reality however if you are looking for a safe margin of error a scoped smaller bore at 75 to 100 yards is really the best to stay safe and make a clean kill. As I believe Elmer Keith said, "dangerous game is only dangerous when it is close." Most of us who post here prefer to get up close as the danger is considered part of the fun.

Well it is interesting that you refuse to tell us your name. I haven’t figured out what the down side to this would be. We have many outfitters and professional hunters that post on this forum. Harry Selby, Ivan Carter, Craig Boddington and many more. The only logical conclusion is that you are a TROLL.
Bill

MacD37

Your last post has summed it up well and perhaps have not been that clear in mine. I no way advocate that anyone today tries to emulate the exploits of Bell or any of those great hunters of bygone years who took on the dangerous game of Africa without PH back up or generally any other assistance apart from trusty natives of the day, some who were handy with a gun and others who were not.

I was only defending those hunters in that in their era they operated to the conditions and of course most who we get to read about survived many decades and lived into retirement, just as our great Harry Selby is today.

I certainly wasn't implying you were one of those denigrating our heros. Referring to Bell as a dumb ass as some have here or ridiculing their exploits, because we do not follow them today is low.
Even those great hunters in their later years or when writing about their adventures did not look down their noses at the modern hunter guided by PHs. They generally all tried to offer good advice and did not expect the modern hunter to try and emulate their feats of bygone eras.

A little respect for those, who actually are very much the trigger for many of us who have aspired to visit Africa, goes a long way.