Anybody read the January 2012 American Rifleman review on the Sabatti Model 92 450 Nitro? They shot it with a Caldwell Lead Sled for 5 consecutive five?! shot groups. Average accuracy for 50 yards was 2.32 inches. I was surprised at the accuracy especially when shot from a lead sled. Also, aren't lead sled hard on doubles?

http://www.americanrifleman.or...el-92-deluxe-review/

Hello,

I have used the lead sled on my 20ga DR project gun as well as my Krieghoff and Baikal with insert tubes and 12 bore paradox.
The 20 ga accuracy was better with the sled.
The Krieghoff also. (470NE)
The Baikal is a 45-70, so not really applicable.

I do not put a ton of weight into it and it does slide on the table.

No broken anything, and no regulation issues.

Just my actual experience.

NItro

Thanks. I have always had better luck when shooting off of sticks rather than holding the rifle down in a rest.

As Nitro mentioned, the trick to Lead Sled use is not to overload them with weight. I usually use one 25lb bag, and allow the sled to move with the recoil. It just takes the edge off of load development. As long as it is allowed to move in a similar fashion as if you were hold it, the recoil effect on bullet path should be quite similar.

Hello
I use 2 soft dive belt weight, mesh bag filled with shot.
6 lbs each.
I also do not hold the forearm down.
Nitro.

PS: I USE 12 lbs and SOMETIMES NO WEIGHT AT ALL!

Didn't Graeme Wright put in his book that he saw no difference in POI whether shot off a led-sled or not???

Timely subject as I was just fixing to fine tune a load for my .500 NE and was gonna shoot from my lead sled with 50 lbs. of weight.

Biebs, you recommend only 25 lbs. ???

Sam (SRose),

Do you have an opinion on this subject?

Lane, if the sled doesn't move, it means the stock is absorbing all the energy....probably not good with a 500 NE.

Careful guys! Double rifle stocks are very expensive to replace! IMO, the more recoil your rifle develops the more likely you are to run into a damaged rifle and the less weight you need to place on the sled. This may seem counterintuitive, but the wood’s ability to withstand the recoil is the same in a little double rifle as it is in a big bore double rifle.

I simply do not recommend the lead sled for double rifle use at all.
...........................................

quote:

Originally posted by Biebs:
Lane, if the sled doesn't move, it means the stock is absorbing all the energy....probably not good with a 500 NE.

Biebs,
I thought you told me you shot your doubles on a Lead Sled and said I should try it once?

Maybe I was mistaken.

I have a little experience with doubles and the lead sled. When I first purchased my Merkel 500NE, I knew very little about shooting doubles as it was my first. I figured the best way to check the sights was to shoot it in a lead sled with 2 shot bags.

I probably shot it that way 30 times or so. Maybe a few more, maybe a few less. I really don't remember. About a month later, I let a friend of mine shoot the rifle. He strummed the rear trigger and doubled the rifle. Then about 4 months later, my South African PH asked to shoot the rifle after my son's buffalo hunt. Thinking he was a PH so knew what he was doing, I said sure. Without noticing, he put two fingers inside the trigger guard and doubled it.

Upon returning home, I noticed a hairline fracture on the right side of the stock, just behind the action and about half way up. What I don't know is just when this small crack showed up. I sent it off for repair and had the weapon thoroughly gone through. The crack was very shallow and was repaired with no problems.

So, I can't say exactly what caused the crack. I don't know if it was the sled, or the two times it doubled. I inspect my guns on a regular basis and shoot that rifle quite a bit. That SA trip was it's second Safari so it had been awhile since I first shot it on the sled.

Bottom line however is that I cannot rule out the sled being the cause. Proceed with caution!

I have never use my lead sleigh on my doubles only use them on my cheaper stocked rifles or shotguns. Common sense would dictate that when you add that much resistance to the recoil of the rifle something has to absorb it, if not your body weight then the gun itself. When you look at the internal design of a doubles butt stock unless the wood is extremely strong and the action superbly fitted it will probably crack. Again my biggest double is a 375, maybe if I had one of the bigger ones I may have a different opinion

I just want to shoot mine on a lead sled about 6 times to precisely check my final load.

ledvm,

I don't like the lead sleds because they are too high and hard to shoot off a normal bench. They do work in reducing recoil. As far as using for a double I'd be careful for that matter with any wood stocked gun. I think the steel butt cup is the main problem. If I were to use one I'd put some foam, cloth or rubber between the stock and the cup. If the butt isn't perfectly flat with that steel cup it could cause damage. Just my 2 cents worth.

Sam

quote:

Biebs,
I thought you told me you shot your doubles on a Lead Sled and said I should try it once?

Lane, I do use them....all the time. I just meant that with too much weight, the sled won't have the necessary "give". That's why I only use 25 lbs most of the time, and no added weight at all if it's a 375-class rifle.

If you completely secure a double rifle (or any hunting rifle for that matter) in a lead sled it isn't going to shoot exactly like it will from a hunting rest. Probably not an issue at dangerous game range with a double rifle but there is an effect. I use a Stoney Point weighted cradle type rest but I don't use the back strap. When I am shooting a big boomer off the bench I use a PAST pad on my shoulder.

Instead of placing shot bags on a lead sled, simply place one bag upright on the bench right at your shoulder. Just like a PAST pad but much more effective. Lay the rifle in a Caldwell or Bullsbag front rest at the balance point and grasp the fore end and barrels just as you would on sticks or offhand. I have found that the point of aim does not change from bench to field positions. This has been the case with a 450-400, 450#2, 470, and a Searcy 500. Also, proved true on a friends 470 Sabatti. The Sabatti and Searcy had ghost ring aperture rear sights, the others,express sights.

Tom

OK...I'll just take more Advil ahead of time, have a shot of Crown poured for immediately after and shoot off of my standard bench bags.

I just can't get quite steady enough to shoot precise groups off sticks. I know...good enough for hunting...but I want to see exactly how the load is grouping...just one time.

I USe the MTM version with about 25lbs of lead in it. Never broken a stock on a krieghoff and have putt several hundred down range with this arangement both 500/416 and .375 FL

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
OK...I'll just take more Advil ahead of time, have a shot of Crown poured for immediately after and shoot off of my standard bench bags.

I just can't get quite steady enough to shoot precise groups off sticks. I know...good enough for hunting...but I want to see exactly how the load is grouping...just one time.

Ledvm, try shooting off of sticks and lean your butt against something solid. I park my truck so I am leaning against the hood and bumper. This gives me more support and helps me shoot tighter groups.

The MTM shooting rest is a lot less damaging to double rifle stocks than the lead sled IMO! He reason being that the belt type butt control is far more flexable than the steel cup of the lead sled. They both work fine with a single barreled rifle, but not on a heavy recoiling double rifle.
The double rifle has a tendency to recoil, not only back but up, and to the side being fired. The lead sled has steel side braces on the older ones, and completely holds the stock upright in the new ones. that does not allow the twist of the stock under recoil, and the MTM does. The sudden twist in the recoil flip is what causes the cracks in the butt stock where the wood meets the action.
Besides the MTM is also much cheaper to buy than the sled!
MTM


Lead sled

quote:

Originally posted by RAC:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
OK...I'll just take more Advil ahead of time, have a shot of Crown poured for immediately after and shoot off of my standard bench bags.

I just can't get quite steady enough to shoot precise groups off sticks. I know...good enough for hunting...but I want to see exactly how the load is grouping...just one time.

Ledvm, try shooting off of sticks and lean your butt against something solid. I park my truck so I am leaning against the hood and bumper. This gives me more support and helps me shoot tighter groups.

Thank you sir...I'll try that.

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:
The MTM shooting rest is a lot less damaging to double rifle stocks than the lead sled IMO! He reason being that the belt type butt control is far more flexable than the steel cup of the lead sled. They both work fine with a single barreled rifle, but not on a heavy recoiling double rifle.
The double rifle has a tendency to recoil, not only back but up, and to the side being fired. The lead sled has steel side braces on the older ones, and completely holds the stock upright in the new ones. that does not allow the twist of the stock under recoil, and the MTM does. The sudden twist in the recoil flip is what causes the cracks in the butt stock where the wood meets the action.
Besides the MTM is also much cheaper to buy than the sled!
MTM


Lead sled

So y'all think the MTM system with 25 lb of lead is OK with .500 NE???

Cause I'll just buy one if that is the consensus...easy enough to salvage my body. I don't mind shooting that .500 NE at all off sticks with my Pabst pad...but...off the bench with conventional rests...woooo!!!

The MTM looks very safe. I have been using something similar that I was trying to get someone to manufacture for me. Guess I got beat to the punch.

I use a milk crate to raise my rifle so my back is more like standing, and able to take the recoil more like shooting off hand.
Hunched over will hurt.
The benches are too low for these thumpers.

Just imagine what it would be like from a prone position!!!

I've not used a lead sled for any purpose, but had a rather lengthy discussion about using one for regulation of new and re-regulated doubles, and for load development. The individual doing the explaining certainly knew what he was talking about as he has principal responsibility for those functions for xxxx in England. (I don't feel it's right saying who he works for, but the company is one of the very top end and best recognized makers.)

It's been about a year since our discussion, but as I recall, he uses a lightly loaded sled, varies the weight sommewhat depending on the recoil, and pads the fore end to allow some movement/rotation. He confirms the work afterwards with from a rest, and almost never has to make any further adjustments.

Emory

quote:

Originally posted by Emory:
I've not used a lead sled for any purpose, but had a rather lengthy discussion about using one for regulation of new and re-regulated doubles, and for load development. The individual doing the explaining certainly knew what he was talking about as he has principal responsibility for those functions for xxxx in England. (I don't feel it's right saying who he works for, but the company is one of the very top end and best recognized makers.)

It's been about a year since our discussion, but as I recall, he uses a lightly loaded sled, varies the weight sommewhat depending on the recoil, and pads the fore end to allow some movement/rotation. He confirms the work afterwards with from a rest, and almost never has to make any further adjustments.

Emory

Graeme Wright says basically the same thing I think.

OK...I'll get me a MTM rest and give in a whirl.

I sight in a lot of big bore rifles and that includes a number of double rifles..I just cannot handle the big bores off a bench without some help these days and all that recoil took its toll in bursitas and cost of cortezone shots.

I purchased a International bench rest some years ago and no problems since..It has never damaged a gun and I have shot 470s, 500s and one 577 off it, with it tied down with clamps and a forward clamp.. I do allow about 2"s of slack in the barrel wrap on the forend to let the gun ride up a bit in recoil, also you can get a better sight picture with the strap out of the way....it takes up recoil with springs that can be adjusted, but I have never needed to adjust it..Also I see where Cabellas has a very nice big bore rest that you don't have to shoulder and you use a syringe full of oil or water, to pull the trigger..Its not expensive either.

I always finish up with a few shots off my forehand off a stand up bench rest, as one would hold the rifle in the field.

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:

I purchased a International bench rest

Ray,
Is this a specific type of device?

Lane
Try shooting from sticks (tripod) with the truck next to you so you can have support for you shooting arm. If all else fails we can build a standing bench and get proper support.

Lane,
Send me your email to my email and I will send you a picture of the International bench rest and his contact numbers..

My bursitas has reached a point that I don't intend on shooting big bores much anymore and I took my horses of Lubrison and I'm dranking it.

I will probably keep my 404 out of nostalgia, sight it in with irons and no more bench sessions or sighting for others. Maybe I'll sell it and just shoot the 9.3x62, it kills buff as well as anything else, who knows! maybe the lubrison will work!

Only wimps need a Lead Sled to shoot big bore doubles!

465H&H

Walt,

Off the bench with a .500 NE...call me a wimp. Off sticks...don't mind at all.

Ray,
E-mail sent.

BTW...the MTM rest worked great for me to chrono and group a new load I am working up...see results in Double Rifle bullet of the future thread tomorrow.

Ive broken a stock on a .458 Lott in my lead sled. I love the thing for moderate calibers but would never shoot any big bore with it again

quote:

Originally posted by Bwanna:
Ive broken a stock on a .458 Lott in my lead sled. I love the thing for moderate calibers but would never shoot any big bore with it again

Get one of the MTM versions...I don't see any way you could break a stock on one of those. You'll see what I mean when you look at one up close. See the pic above in Mac's post.

They work too! Been testing loads in my .500 NE in one.