.....Hello All;.. Well after a winters worth of research ..{ I started raining this morning , after a record winter . We had around 17 feet [,,5 meters] of snow.since october....I,ve heard there are thousands of dead deer on the beaches of northern Chichagof Is. alone....So much for global warming...>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>Any way ,,, I see Heym is makeing a O/U 9.3x74 double with a single trigger......Most of the summer and fall I am gone from here and my wife daily runs our dogs...... Usually they encounter a bear at least once a week and so far all have left ..Thank God !!!...I want to put the best rifle in her hands that I can and really like the look of this Heym ..it weighs less than 7 lbs and so she will carry it with her,. Has a single trigger ,No forgetting to move her finger back , and it can be uncocked....I know I am limited to less than 2400 fps with a 286 gr bullet ..,, But does anyone have experience with the 9.3,s with lighter weight bullets or heavier bullets and how well and fast they incapisatate dangerous game.....Most brown bears that become a problem usually arn,t much over 700 lbs.....GS Custom lists a load with the 232 gr HV bullet @ 2700 fps. Has anyone any experience with it........As long as the pressures arn,t too high , all it needs to group is within 4" at 50 yrds and even that isn,t that criticale....I like the rifle , as long as it works and is RELIABLE because she can uncock it .......last summer she used her 308 or my 458, both Ruger bolt actions ,, but she is too slow for the 2nd shot and often times short strokes the bolt......In short I am hopeing this to be an attractive , powerful , reliable , idiot pruf .bear stopper... I know it is a bit light but I can,t find anything more powerful in a weight she will lug with her .....This is a serious inquiry so any real life replys will be very appreciated ... Thank You ... gumboot.

I've regularly used the 9.3X74 on grizzlies. A well placed shot usually stops them for the requisite follow-up shot. For years I've used the Barnes original, but have experienced no problems with the X bullet or Woodleighs. I'm aware of being cautious with a single shot, but Ruger has told me they'll be in production of the #1 in 450/400 in April and that's an even better caliber, .....I rechambered a .405 a couple of years ago and it has really anchored every bear it's been used on. ~Arctic~

Get her a semi-auto 12 gauge, shoot Brennekee slugs.

Teach her to shoot using the light loads available, and keep the firearm clean, or keep it clean for her. She may enjoy shooting at some hand thrown clay targets, to gain the experience. You can buy maybe 8 or 12 good shotguns for the price of a double 9.3x74R, and you can use the shotgun to hunt ducks.

Just a suggestion - if the goal is really to have bear protection for your wife - with a firearm she can actually shoot. But, of course if this is a good excuse to get a double rifle, and that's your story for her, then more power to ya.

KB

quote:

Originally posted by Arctic:
I've regularly used the 9.3X74 on grizzlies. A well placed shot usually stops them for the requisite follow-up shot. For years I've used the Barnes original, but have experienced no problems with the X bullet or Woodleighs. I'm aware of being cautious with a single shot, but Ruger has told me they'll be in production of the #1 in 450/400 in April and that's an even better caliber, .....I rechambered a .405 a couple of years ago and it has really anchored every bear it's been used on. ~Arctic~

Arctic

I had Barnes X bullets take a 9.3x74 off face in less than 100 rounds.

I had it corrected and now am well into 1000 plus with Noslers and no problem.

quote:

Originally posted by Mickey1:
I had Barnes X bullets take a 9.3x74 off face in less than 100 rounds.
I had it corrected and now am well into 1000 plus with Noslers and no problem.

Micky,
I'm not trying to be a smart a--, but I surely would like to know what you are talking about. I don't understand the term "off face". What does that mean?

Also, you say you "had it corrected". How was being off face corrected?

Thanks, KB

Mickey ,,,, That is a concern that I have ...The pressure curve is different with the X,s and I sure don,t want a pressure problem ...One reason I was thinking about the GS , HV bullets....Artic Thank you ,,That stopping them for another shot is what I,m interested in .........Do you remember the load or what velocity your bullets were doing.....Mickey , what load do you use with the Partitions ??? ........... KB comeing off the face is when a gap begins to develop between the breach face and the barrels,,,,they begin " comeing off the face " ... ...Fixing it intails a trip to the maker or someplace like Champlin,s ........Weve already been the shotgun route and it was a no go...Nothing simpler than a double.........Her gun,s are her guns......I,m not interested in a 9.3 for myself,, it will recoil the least of any real caliber ., and that paticular rifle is under 1 meter long , has easy to use sights , comes with QD rings and bases ,I think in 30 mm so a red dot sight can de mounted ,,, And is just a nice little girl,s rifle.....

Thanks Gumboot for the info about face off. Now I understand about that.

I was thinking the gas operation mech of the semi auto would take up some recoil, and with a short barrel it's pretty handy. The red dot scope is just as useful on the shotgun, maybe more so.

I've got this notion that if a person can't get the hang of loading, pushing off a push-button safety, aiming each time, and pulling the trigger multiple times, then that person really doesn't have the aptitude to be handling firearms, especially in a stressful situation of bear protection, without some significant training. What better way to become accustom to shooting than at thrown rocks, cans, or clay disks? If she can't hit a moving target with a shotgun, then - well you know. I think you are fooling yourself.

Just buy the 9.3 double for yourself.

KB

Gumboot, I believe the load is 54-56gr. of IMR4064 in the 9.3. Same load in Merkel, Kreighoff, BRNO o/u, and a Farquharson. ~Arctic~

Gumboot458
Under the conditions you've discribed I can't think of a better rifle for the application. I don't have the amount of expiriance with the 9.3x74 as the other double rifle guy's here do and I'm sure you'll get a flood of good info from them.
I've used the 9.3x74 in Europe and Africa both. I've taken impala,eland,blue wildebeast and a bunch of Russian boar. I don't recall any of them needing but one shot and dropping in there tracks.
You won't have as much flexibilety in working up your loads as with another rifle type than the double but the advantages will greatly outweigh that. The 9.3x74 guy's here will get you lined out on that.
A good set of qd mounts and a lower powered variable scope would be my choise. I'd carry the gun with the irons while walking the dogs and when she falls in love with the rifle and wants to hunt with nothing else she won't have any problem taking a blacktail deer @ 200 yards.

Gumboot
I have a 9.3x74 tika that is great to carry and shoots real well.It has great scope mount.Recoil is light next to my 375 H&H. I have shot a cow elk and two russian boars with it. Nothing took a step. I think the 250 grain nosler accubond or a frames would be the way to go. The o/u is a great format for what you want. The tika is $1600.00 gun,and has adjustment to regulate for different loads. It does not have a uncocking type action. Given what you intend it to be use for it may or may not be worth the extra money. If your wife is handy with the rifle I would not worry about it , there is alot to be said about unloading it daily.

JD

quote:

Originally posted by gumboot458:
.....Hello All;.. Well after a winters worth of research ..{ I started raining this morning , after a record winter . We had around 17 feet [,,5 meters] of snow.since october....I,ve heard there are thousands of dead deer on the beaches of northern Chichagof Is. alone....So much for global warming...>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>Any way ,,, I see Heym is makeing a O/U 9.3x74 double with a single trigger......Most of the summer and fall I am gone from here and my wife daily runs our dogs...... Usually they encounter a bear at least once a week and so far all have left ..Thank God !!!...I want to put the best rifle in her hands that I can and really like the look of this Heym ..it weighs less than 7 lbs and so she will carry it with her,. Has a single trigger ,No forgetting to move her finger back , and it can be uncocked....I know I am limited to less than 2400 fps with a 286 gr bullet ..,, But does anyone have experience with the 9.3,s with lighter weight bullets or heavier bullets and how well and fast they incapisatate dangerous game.....Most brown bears that become a problem usually arn,t much over 700 lbs.....GS Custom lists a load with the 232 gr HV bullet @ 2700 fps. Has anyone any experience with it........As long as the pressures arn,t too high , all it needs to group is within 4" at 50 yrds and even that isn,t that criticale....I like the rifle , as long as it works and is RELIABLE because she can uncock it .......last summer she used her 308 or my 458, both Ruger bolt actions ,, but she is too slow for the 2nd shot and often times short strokes the bolt......In short I am hopeing this to be an attractive , powerful , reliable , idiot pruf .bear stopper... I know it is a bit light but I can,t find anything more powerful in a weight she will lug with her .....This is a serious inquiry so any real life replys will be very appreciated ... Thank You ... gumboot.

Gumboot458, the 9.3X74R double rifle is a great choice for your wife to carry when out walking the beaches! The actual selecting of the rifle requires some serious thought, however.

First I don't like single triggers on a double S/S or O/U, and that is not just a personal thing, there are reasons for that opinion. The first reason is, if the trigger fails in any way, the rifle is out of service! The second reason is, on a s/s the lacks are both cocked by the opening of the action, in 99.9% of the rifles, so the single trigger is a little better on the S/S. On most O/Us the top barrel is cocked by the recoil of the other barrel, Here if you get a missfire on the bottom barrel the top barrel will not fire. This combined with the single trigger, makes for a chancey sittuation, in close quarters with a big brown. SO!......What I'm saying is, if you must have a single trigger, then you need to select the rifle very carefully. Make sure the rifle you pick cocks both barrels when opening to load the chambers, this way if you do happen to get a dud in the first barrel, you can simply pull the trigger again for the second barrel. Still, if you have two triggers, there will be no such problem, because waht you have then is, two intirely indipendant single shot rifles on the same stock. If one barrel doesn't fire, for what ever reason, the change of triggers get fire coming out the muzzle of the other barrel, and if one, or the other trigger fails for any reason, whatever, you still have a working single shot!

The Valmet412/TIKKA rifles are available with two triggers, and the action cocks both barrels on opening. I, personally would reccomend the Valmet/TIKKA with two triggers, chambered for 9.3X74R, but if you just have to have a single trigger, at least this rifle cocks both barrels.

The second thing is the choice if light fast bullets in a double , to be used for big bear, is not a good choice, IMO. I'd much rather have a slower, but as heavy as I could get ,well constructed bullet. 2200fps is pleanty, and good bullets will penetrate like a hot knife through butter, on a soft skinned animal like a Brown bear! Outside the GSC, and the north forks, I would stay away from mono-metel bullets in my double, if I were you. The North fork soft point is a very good bullet, as are the 286 gr Nosler Partitions. Those bullets can be loaded faster, with the self regulation feature of the Valmet/Tikka, but in doubles, excess pressures are not a desireable thing. High pressures tend to lock a double up so that it is difficult, or imposible to open for reloading, after fireing both barrels. That wouldn't be a comforting feeling for me, and I doubt it would be for your wife either!

Also, the TIKKA/Valmet, are not pritty, but they are good well made rifles, and in Alaska's weather you wont cry every time you se the RUST building up on it, like you would something fancier.

Good luck with what ever you choose! ..........And good hunting!

i sort of have to agree with mac on the single trigger, but if she's not used to double triggers use a single. i think i've shot everything from klippspringers to lions with the 9.3x74 using mostly 300 gr a frames and always had good luck. I don't really think i'd go the the light bullet unless it ws a barnes. I don't know what type of rifle mickey had that went off face, but i've never had a problem with any of my modern doubles. on an old one yes, but not with new ones. with 215 gr barnes x bullets in a 375 my son took eveerything from steenbuck to eland without a problem.

>>>>>>>> Every one,, thank you for the replys.....Several more questions....? I agree with unloading the rifle when not in use ,,, Does it hurt the springs or anything else in a double to leave it open .....As I,ve put ALOT of wear on my rifles just packin them around and loading and un loading them ... I would take the rounds out of the chamber but once the rifle was broke in it seems like it may be a good idea to not break it out.???.....That may be a stupid question , but there it is ?? I was unaware that double rifles were like the Browning Superposed which cocks the 2nd barrel in recoil...The double triggers are definately out for her......I hadn,t thot of the North Fork bullet but it should be ideal...I,m needing 2-3 feet of penetration in bear,, starting with its face,, ....The mouth in paticuler ....It is what I focus on anyway.....The light bullet idea is to keep the recoil down for the non game shooting she does with the bear loads . ....... A plinking load I made up for my 9.3x62 useing 15 gr of UNIQUE and a 270 gr Speer is what most of her shooting will be at 7 yards .....I don,t think it recoils enough to cock the 2nd barrel .She should be able to pop ballons with it... Probably gonna have to get her a o/u 410 or some other light shotgun to learn about opening up and reloading........How much does the Tikka weigh ????I would prefer a 375 flanged magnum for her but they all seem to weigh 9 lbs and all that means is it will get dropped more......That little Heym sure seems ideal... >>?????????????

I don't know if the Heym cocks both barrels or not, but you can send NEW_GUY a PM, and he can certainly tell you, as he is the importer for Heym rifles! One thing you can be sure about with the Heym, anything they make is well made, and worth their asking price!

Just 2c worth: Bought a Merkel 9.3 x 74 which weighs 6 lbs 3 3/8 ozs. Shoots just fine and so handy on the 28 gauge frame, small, light, etc. ... these are 'sticky,' careful, that is it stuck to my hand and I couldn't put it down.

Available in single trigger w/ejectors as options, available now in US. However, the single trigger safety only locks the trigger, so dropping, etc. can fire it; double trigger models have a sear locks.

I am a retired wildlife biologist who spent 8 years on Kodiak, so I do know what big browns are like--sometimes. I like lots of gun, but only if I am comfortable shooting it. I now run a little gunshop in Fairbanks.

Best to you all,

..........Talked to new_guy and got the questions answered.............He said it operates the same as the Kriegoff and that both hammers are cocked at the same time......He said the weight is like 7# 2...in 9.3x74r...I am a little concerned about the grip being too open like the CZ550FS ...But that could be solved next winter after the punks in brown fur coats are napping ........The double trigger, will just be more stuff to worry about and the saftey of an inert rifle is actually even better than the Ruger M 77Mk II safety...........I most definately want double triggers on my double....But I can get by well with my bolts for now.....She on the other hand can,t and I need to KISS .... How long is your Merkel ,,,505 ??...That sounds like a sweet combo Mac , and everyone ,Thank You for the edjucational heads ups !!!!!!

gumboot

Your situation is a unique and difficult one.
Picking a protection rifle is a difficult task.

I will assume your wife is not a gun nut, that is not a "cut" in any way, my wife is a very avid hard core hunter, but she is not a gun nut like most of us.

Your choice of a 2 barreled gun in 9,3x74R with one trigger is a very good one for her.

I have taken quite a bit of game with a 9,3 double and trust it to do the job. I would recommend 286 Woodleigh Softs or 286 Nosler Partitions.

I much prefer a SXS to an O/U, and I would have to have 2 triggers.
My wifes favorite hunting gun is her drilling a gun with 3 barrels and 2 triggers, a much more complicated system than a 2 triggered double, she handles it with out problem, but you are correct in that one trigger is simpler.

If I was to buy for ME a double for the parameters you describe, as much as I like my Chapuis double, I think the Merkel in the 28ga sized frame with the @21" bbls would be first rate. It is "neat, sweet, petite".

A double 9,3 for bear protection is kinda expensive, there are cheaper rifles that will get the job done, but sometimes you just have to ask yourself "How much is your LIFE worth?"

I can say that when I am in close proxemity to dangerous animals, I feel most comfortable with a double rifle.

NE 450 #2; ...That is the Whole ? for me .....If it took a 20,000,00$ Searcy 577 double to be properly protected it would still be a BIG BARGIN........The limit on caliber is only due to weight and recoil.....!!!I will take another look at the Merkel 9.3 but that Heym is looking very good........I will get the one with the most boreing wood available.,.and would prefer fiberglass....or plastic.....as long as it fit right.........This country is pretty rough on wood stocks .....If someone would make an 8 lb 450/400 it would be even better... But we will have to work with what we can.....

If the 9.3 Merkel 141 is like my 8x57 141 the single trigger sears are recoil set so that would rule out the Merkel. The Valmet/Tikka is the most practical AND the least expensive. I have found all the ones I have owned to be reliable and accurate.

Zim - new to this thread so a couple of silly questions if you will?? Is the Valmet/Tikka a side by side or O/U? Where can you actually see and buy one of these. Would possibly be interested in the 9.3 X 74R version as well. Thanks.

Larry Sellers

quote:

Originally posted by zimbabwe:
If the 9.3 Merkel 141 is like my 8x57 141 the single trigger sears are recoil set so that would rule out the Merkel. The Valmet/Tikka is the most practical AND the least expensive. I have found all the ones I have owned to be reliable and accurate.

OK, Gumboot, I'm finally back and here is the poop on the little Merkel:
Length 97cm, so that's 97/2.54=~38.2 inches; barrels 55cm, 55/2.54=~21.54 inches. The buttstock is more than a bit short for me-even more than usual (I am 6'3" w/long arms), but a good thick recoil pad makes it OK. Weight is given as 3kg, no caliber, nor the usual "... depending on wood density" listed--they forgot I suppose, all the other listings have this, and my guess is the barrel profile is the same for all calibers, and a barrel can be made lighter from the outside or the inside (my choice), so the weight of mine is 6 lbs 3 and 3/8 ozs on several scales. Quite a handy little thing, just right for an old man to pack all day. The Merkel www site (see below) also lists an O/U at 2.9 kg which has manual cocking, which self-cocks on opening (handy), double locks, single trigger, sounds nice; but has a duraluminum frame, so not for me, I shoot too much. But maybe your purposes . . .

The two links below are for the 141 s/s and B3 o/u. Site navigation is still a little 'different,' but better than in the past. Don't bother with the GSI site--I had to call and talk with Pete, then Herman to findd out whether they had the single trigger (yes), and no, there are no drawings, etc. of the actions. (Most of the folks I know hereabouts want to know what is in there before plunking down 7 to a lot more, thousand for a double rifle. Trust dosen't cut it. So, I'm doing photos.)

Last, guess most of you know this, but if you buy the little double you are gonna have to work the action a few hundred times and probably fire a "couple hundred rounds" (from Merkel, Germany), before the action is loose enough to suit your wife (or me). They are very tight, very stiff and I won't hunt with a rifle that way.

http://www.merkel-waffen.de/core.php?dat=Y29tcG9uZW50PW...JmFydGljbGVJRD00ODE=

http://www.merkel-waffen.de/core.php?dat=Y29tcG9uZW50PW...RD01NTgmc3ViTmF2PTE=

Oh, last, search for "sam" on Merkel's site to list all the models.

harv, 505

Larry,
the Valmet/Tikka I was referring to is actually the same rifle. It started out as a valmet and is now made under the Tikka name. They are O/U. I had my first Valmet SHOTGUN (same basic gun) in the 60's and ahve only owned Valmets (3) no Tikkas. Have owned in all calibers from 308 to 9.3 and was favorably impressed with them. Took one to Africa but ended up only using it as a shotgun. I believe the importer is Russ Gould of Doublegun Headquarters but not sure of that. Except for the first shotgun mine were all used guns. I did order a filler from them that fills the gap between the barrels which I find unsightly. It is a piece of silicone rubber and would fill the opening nicely. They shipped it promptly and it was inexpensive.

505 - Great info on the 141. Who would you recommend as a dealer for these and what is the going price at the moment. Would you prefer the ejectors and what is the cocking scenerio on the 141? Thanks

Larry Sellers

I have a 140E, 9.3X74R double, and it has ejectors, cocking indicaters, Auto safety,(Which I will disconnect the AUTO feature) Double triggers with the trigger for the right barrel a set trigger, weighs 3.6K, and is very well ballanced, and is s snapp to carry all day, and still shoot it very well! I also installed a Pachmeyr decellarator recoil pad. The recoil is not light with the solid buttplate, and even at 8 lbs is noticable, for a women! Of course with a brown bear looking hard at her she will not notice it!

.......Well , their out ......The punks in the brown fur coats that is .. A small one 6 ft or so and a biggish one at the airport... ..They should be pretty busy with the dead deer on the beaches.... course we got about 5 " of snow today so it will be a while befor they start appearing thru the snow.........A friend of mine has a sister that is a brain surgeon and she shoots a Searcy 470 on buff , hippo and elephant .....By keeping my wife shooting Alot of gallery loads she can get used to her rifle and when push comes to shove she won,t be unfamiliar with it....

If you can live with a O/U 9.3x74R this might be worth looking at. The SAGITTAIRE model it has a interesting trigger, in the double trigger model you can either pull the first trigger twice or use the second trigger as a conventional two trigger gun. It also has a mechanical adjustment at the end of the barrels to regulate as necessary. The only "different" feature is the safety that sits inside the triggerguard but they say its more positive than others and has been in use for 50 yrs. This gun in either a rifle or shotgun version is one of the most popular guns in France.
http://www.verney-carron.com/pages-us2/iii_index-us.htm
I am working on importing some of these now to test the US market and should cost under $3000.

gumboot

Something else you might consider.
I do not know how much bird shooting ya'll do but getting her an extra set of shotgun bbls would be a good idea. The more she uses the gun the better she will be with it.

My wife uses her Drilling for almost all of her hunting.