I am in the process of planning my first African hunt. I want to hunt plains game and perhaps a buffalo. I have a Merkel 141E and a Valmet 412, both double rifles in SXS and O/U, both in 9.3X74R. I also have bolt rifles in 375 Ruger and 416 Ruger. I am only taking one gun. Also I am left handed and I can't expect a loaner rifle to suit me. (Actually there are two of us using one rifle. We're both lefties). I would like to take a double rifle, probably the Merkel, but my personal experience is that neither of these guns will shoot both barrels into 4 inches or less much beyond 100 yards. My bolt guns will produce the same accuracy in my hands at twice that range under the same conditions using scopes. I'm talking about a field rest under hunting conditions. Maybe I'm just a poor shot, or at least the only one that will admit it, but are there double rifles out there that are more accurate than mine? I was impressed with one fellow's Sabatti groups here at 25 yards, but I don't want to be limited to that kind of range. What will YOUR double rifle do at 200 yards?

I have taken a coyote at 281 yards and a kudu at a little over 300 yards, with my scoped 9,3x74R Chapuis. I have taken a lot of game in the 175 to 250 yard range as well.
I have used it for plains game on all 3 of my Safaris, and a cape buff and elephant.

So first let me ask, have you shot your double on paper at 200 yards?

If your gun does not shoot "tight" enough at 200 yards, then one thing you can do is sight the scope in "exactly" at 200 for the barrel you shot first, usually the right.

That way your first shot will be spot on and I would think, if you loads are good you second shot would only be a few inches to the left, and a few inches up or down. [assuming your left barrel is the second shot fired].

Id your Merkel scoped?
What sized groups does your Merkel shoot at 200 yards?

Do your shots cross?

What load and bullet are you shooting?

quote:

Originally posted by N E 450 No2:
I have taken a coyote at 281 yards

I can personally vouch for that Coyote MEASURED 281 yd shot, and infact it was not just one shot but two shots, the first one was on the coyote, but a little far back becaued the coyote was following some deer. The shot caused the coyote to spin in place, and the second barrel put him down for the count!

My Merkel has a 1.5-5 Leupold. The Valmet has a 3-9 Leupold. At 200 I can put 3 shots in 5 inches with the Valmet, a little more with the Merkel, with ONE barrel, the rear trigger in both cases. The second barrel raises the groups to 10 and 13 inches, respectivly. Both rifles have adjustable barrels, so better regulation is theoretically possible. However, I was not successful in regulating the Valmet on a 200 yard zero that was also reasonable at 100 or less. The front trigger barrel (right/bottom) in both guns is less accurate as a single shot. I'm using 232 Vulcans using a Norma factory duplication load. So for all practical purposes I have a single shot at long range. I have dabbled with 286 grain bullets in the Valmet but the Merkel is regulated with the 232s and I am loathe to change it. The Valmet will shoot the 286s with about the same accuracy as the 232s, at least with Privi Partisan bullets. I know I'll have to load a premium bullet rather than the cheap Privis. So I am not too far out of the herd with my rifles. I just will have to make the first shot count.

I like the Merkel double better than the Valmet, mainly because I prefer a SxS to an O/U.

For Africa I would recommend the Woodleigh 286gr Soft and Solids. They work great. I killed my biggest cape buff in body and horn with one 286gr Soft.

In fact while I have used seveal different other bullets on deer and pigs, the Woodleigh ofts are just about perfect for all game, that does not need solids.

My Chapuis shoots 286 Woodleigh Softs, Solids, 286gr Nosler Parttitions, and 285gr Hawk bullets to the same point of impact with 65gr of IMR 4831.

If I was in your position I would re regulate the Merkel with the 286gr Woodleighs and take it to Africa.

Vol, can you not select which barrel is fired by the front trigger? I have a Tikka 512SD which has a selector on the trigger (right/left push button) and an indicator behind the safety labelled "O" and "U" which shows which barrel has been fired.
As you know, the top barrel is fixed while the lower is adjustable for elevation ( and slight windage) With a scope I would suggest sighting the top barrel for 200 yards (or whatever distance you want), by adjusting the scope, and shoot a group using just that barrel. If it shoots a 4" group or less I would call that good for large PG (eg. Kudu etc) at a known distance. I would then shoot it (the top barrel) at 100 and regulate the lower barrel so that it shoots 2" or so lower than the top. After shooting groups with each barrel at two separate targets at 100 yards, and knowing exactly where each barrel shoots, I would be good to go.
BTW mine is in 9.3x74R as well. Using the above method will also allow you to select the best bullet.
Peter.

I shot a Caracal in April with my Chapuis at 220-some yards. 2-7x33mm Leupold. Hit just below the aiming point and took three ribs out.

Rich

Alaskan bull moose, 287 yards away, one shot in the heart, off hand, stock iron sights, distance measured with a range finder and witnessed by two other hunters. Rifle was a Chapuis 9,3x74R.

Lucky shot? Absolutely, but the more we practice off hand, the luckier we get

The Valmet action that I use for rifles has double triggers. That's a good point about the zeroing. I have actually zeroed 412s so that they shot to two ranges to have a longer range gun. I haven't been as successful with the Merkel. Maybe I just don't know it as well.

Have you adjusted the barrels to shoot to the same point of aim with you ammo? Do the barrels make two separate groups or are they "merged". Finally, are you using the "set trigger" feature?

My 141(e) shot less than 2" at 100 yards (after adjustment) and all the bullets were in a 3" circle at 200 yards.

I have the adjustment instructions if you want them.

quote:

Originally posted by Vol717:
I am in the process of planning my first African hunt. I want to hunt plains game and perhaps a buffalo. I have a Merkel 141E and a Valmet 412, both double rifles in SXS and O/U, both in 9.3X74R. I also have bolt rifles in 375 Ruger and 416 Ruger. I am only taking one gun. Also I am left handed and I can't expect a loaner rifle to suit me. (Actually there are two of us using one rifle. We're both lefties). I would like to take a double rifle, probably the Merkel, but my personal experience is that neither of these guns will shoot both barrels into 4 inches or less much beyond 100 yards. My bolt guns will produce the same accuracy in my hands at twice that range under the same conditions using scopes. I'm talking about a field rest under hunting conditions. Maybe I'm just a poor shot, or at least the only one that will admit it, but are there double rifles out there that are more accurate than mine? I was impressed with one fellow's Sabatti groups here at 25 yards, but I don't want to be limited to that kind of range. What will YOUR double rifle do at 200 yards?

Anything 200 yards and in better duck fast if I'm carrying my Searcy 375 Flanged with a 1.5x5 Loopie on it....real accurate. I'm just starting to play with the lighter bullets (235 gr) since I haven't been "stimulated" yet into being about to plan another safari...have to settle for those rogue whitetails.

Gary
DRSS
NRA Lifer
SCI
DSC

Yes,Yes... I hear all the stories about hitting an X animal at X number of yards with a double rifle, but is anyone pretending to claim that a DR is a better weapon than a bolt rifle at anything over maybe 50 yards? The purpose of a DR is to have 2 fast and reliable shots in close quarters situations. If you're hunting Plains Game, and maybe even Buffalo this late in the season, you can't honestly believe a DR is a better choice of weapon. If you want to use a double, then do it...because it is fun....but it's not the most effective choice.

Biebs

A double rifle has the same advantages at a distance that it has u close, ie 2 fast shots.

Many times I have been able to fire a second shot with one of my doubles, even at a distance, that I would have never been able to do with any other rifle action type.

The coyote and kudu are 2 examples, there was a giraffe at 188 yards with my ironsighted 450 No2, and some zebra come to mind just off of the top of my head.

Once you get loads that regulate correctly in your double, in my experience I can hit with it as well as anything, out to 250 yards at least.

quote:

Originally posted by Biebs:
Yes,Yes... I hear all the stories about hitting an X animal at X number of yards with a double rifle, but is anyone pretending to claim that a DR is a better weapon than a bolt rifle at anything over maybe 50 yards? The purpose of a DR is to have 2 fast and reliable shots in close quarters situations. If you're hunting Plains Game, and maybe even Buffalo this late in the season, you can't honestly believe a DR is a better choice of weapon. If you want to use a double, then do it...because it is fun....but it's not the most effective choice.

It is not so much the choice between a bolt and a DR for buffalo, lion, leopard and on down the line but that you need a scope and an accurate first shot.

But to pretend to be able to hunt the three above, and the lesser game, with open sights is asking for trouble. What did Ivan say today, he had a wounded buff that someone had shot in a hind leg? Come on!!

Hello, I have some experience with the Merkel 141 as both an owner and a dealer. First, and without exception, send the gun to Steyr/Merkel in Trussville, AL, along with 3 boxes of ammo that you prefer to be used in this gun for your African hunt. The gunsmith at Merkel USA, Herbert, will take your ammo to the range and using the specified tools for regulating these adjustable barrels, will make sure your rifle is shooting a 2" group with open sights at 50 yards.----Do not, and I stress do not, regulate the gun for a scope, first. If the gun does not shoot true with open sights properly regulated, then it will not do so scoped. Once regulated with open sights, it is simple to sight the gun in using the right barrel with the scope, up to 200 yards or so.-----The 141 is very handy, but a little underweighted I feel. Howvever, I really enjoy shooting this rifle. I think this is definitely your best gun for your trip to Africa; best caliber, best penetration, and a real quality gun.----There's very few folks out there that can explain to you how to get this gun regulated for both open sights and scope. Like other have said, it is the right barrel that will be best sighted for the scope. But if the open sights are not regulated first, the gun will not shoot true. Contact me in private if you need more info.

quote:

Originally posted by Biebs:
Yes,Yes... I hear all the stories about hitting an X animal at X number of yards with a double rifle, but is anyone pretending to claim that a DR is a better weapon than a bolt rifle at anything over maybe 50 yards? The purpose of a DR is to have 2 fast and reliable shots in close quarters situations. If you're hunting Plains Game, and maybe even Buffalo this late in the season, you can't honestly believe a DR is a better choice of weapon. If you want to use a double, then do it...because it is fun....but it's not the most effective choice.

Biebs, You make some good points but I still think if your shots are going to be under 200 yards the double with iron sights would make a better choice on larger animals. "Caribou size" or smaller at possible longer distances then I would agree that a scoped bolt in the right caliber would be a better choice.

I was a Valmet distributor and have regulated a ton of Valmets... They are very easy to regulate, and if it was mine, i'd regulate it at 100 yards with the scope on it. I ALWAYS fired the bottom bbl. first (front trigger) and regulated the top bbl just over the bottom bbl... I never had a problem shooting 200 yards with them after.

BTW, i'm a lefty too.

DM

If I was hunting with my 9.3X62 bolt rifle, I would not be using the 232 gr Vulkan.

Please PM me if you want some real great 9.3 bullet test info. This was put together by a group of us on a project on another forum a few years ago. Others on AR have found it very useful. IMO the 286 gr Woodleight, Privi & Lapua Mega are great bullets for big game.

I would also suggest that you read the thread on using the 9.3 for buffalo. Ganyana recommends using only softs & not solids. I have seen a photo of a buffalo shot in the heart with a solid that ran away & lived for a long time. It was finally tracked & killed. the photo of the heart showed that the solit had made a small hole but the heart muscles were so strong that the hole would close up each time the heart beat!!

Vol717, I shoot a Chapuis 9.3x74R that groups 2x2 shots at 100m into 2 inches easily. I've shot it at 150 and 200 yards and it reacts the way you'd expect 3 - 4 inches respectively.

I've settled on the 286 grain Woodleigh soft point (note not the PP) at about 2280 fps over the normal dose of 4831 equivalent here in Australia.

I've shot everything, including water buffalo with it, and whilst in my humble opinion you need heaps more gun for BULL buffalo, the 9.3 does great work on meat animals that normally weigh half to 2/3 of the big fellas.

I'm sure a 9.3 will kill any buffalo the lord ever put on the planet, but if things go pear shaped I'm not so sure of it's ability to stop things right now unless you could hit vitals.

I guess in todays sanitary environment you'd be well supported by a PH and he'll be carrying a stopper, so my concerns are probably unfounded.

Just to make it clear, a good double can be bloody accurate and heaps more fun than a bolt rifle for hunting.....

The only reason Ganyana used a 9.3 is because he owns one! You can kill a buff with one but it is a bit irresponsible for if a buff comes charging out of the bush you are pretty much unarmed.

Shooting buff with open sights at 200 yards? That I gotta see.

2" at 50 yards....4" at 100 yards....8" at 200 yards.....I have bolt rifles that will hit a Nickel at 200 yards more times that not. And if you're saying you can shoot X group with one barrel on your DR, then you're shooting a single shot rifle! Don't get me wrong, I love my double rifles, but in large calibers (577 & 500 NE) and up close....WHAT THEY WERE INTENDED FOR !!!!!!!!!!

I screw around with my .470 at 2 and 3 and even 4 and 5 hundred yards on steel at the range. You'd be surprised at what you can do with an iron sighted double at those ranges and it's fun to do.

I've killed a Black Wildebeest at 218 yards with an iron sighted .470 double. I kill feral hogs at 100+ yards with my .470 all the time it is a great confidence builder. Not to mention all the close range fast moving shooting that jumping hogs in thick cover provides. All of that stuff great fun to play with your double but I wouldn't dream of taking any long range first shots on DG with it. I would and do have the confidence to pop at a wounded already hit DG critter at long range if I had the opportunity however.

And of course a scoped bolt gun is a better choice for general hunting where the game might be 100+ yards or more. I don't own a light scoped double (but I'd like to) so I can't comment from personal experience on the accuracy or effectiveness of one.

quote:

Originally posted by DM:
I was a Valmet distributor and have regulated a ton of Valmets... They are very easy to regulate, and if it was mine, i'd regulate it at 100 yards with the scope on it. I ALWAYS fired the bottom bbl. first (front trigger) and regulated the top bbl just over the bottom bbl... I never had a problem shooting 200 yards with them after.

BTW, i'm a lefty too.

DM

BTW, to add to my post... It's not true that only the bottom bbl moves when you regulate a Valmet DR, it just moves more than the top bbl...

DM

quote:

Originally posted by Vol717:
What will YOUR double rifle do at 200 yards?

I haven't shot this one at 200, but it's an open-sighted 450/400.

I was doing some load work last week with it.

The top 4 shots are at 50 yards.

The bottom 5 are at 100.

quote:

Originally posted by Biebs:
Yes,Yes... I hear all the stories about hitting an X animal at X number of yards with a double rifle, but is anyone pretending to claim that a DR is a better weapon than a bolt rifle at anything over maybe 50 yards? The purpose of a DR is to have 2 fast and reliable shots in close quarters situations. If you're hunting Plains Game, and maybe even Buffalo this late in the season, you can't honestly believe a DR is a better choice of weapon. If you want to use a double, then do it...because it is fun....but it's not the most effective choice.

Biebs, Your statement (in bold in your post above) of what the double rifle is best at is absolutely true. That fact in no way says the double rifle that is properly regulated, and shooting loads that shoot to that regulation, is not capable of shooting well at 200 yds or even farther on game. The true purpose of a double rifle is for hunting what ever you are hunting, handicapped only by the skill of the regulator, the loader, and the man/woman shooting the rifle.

Nobody here has said the double rifle with iron sights is BETTER than a bolt rifle with iron sights, or a scoped double rifle is better at long range that a scoped bolt rifle. However there is certainly a case to be made for the properly regulated, and loaded scoped double rifle over an iron sighted bolt rifle at the same range. If both are sighted the same way, the double rifle still has the advantage of that very quick second shot without doing anything but changing triggers. And when loaded properly and shot by an equally proficient shooter, the bolt rifle is certainly behind in the follow-up shot department, and under hunting conditions takes no back seat to an equally proficient shooter of a bolt rifle under the same conditions. NO! They are not P-dog rifles, but then neither is a big bore bolt rifle.

Too many people simply buy into the old gun rag statement that a double rifle is simply not accurate, beyond the muzzles. Anyone who thinks that simply does not understand double rifles, and is relying on the word of someone else who doesn’t understand them either.

I know several people who have bought into that misconception, and own several double rifles, and none of them have ever shot anything but factory ammo. The result is none of their doubles are shooting to the regulation that the rifles are capable of. They never will till the owner does his loading work to make the rifle shoot properly.

I would bet there are not more than one in ten double rifles that will regulate with factory ammo, or bolt rifles that will shoot as well with factory as with properly loaded ammo. Sure they are acceptable out to 50 yds, but are certainly not shooting to the accuracy they are capable of with proper loads.

quote:

Originally posted by Biebs:
2" at 50 yards....40" at 100 yards....8" at 200 yards.....I have bolt rifles that will hit a Nickel at 200 yards more times that not. !!!!!!!!!!

..................

Biebs,why would anyone hunt nickels with any rifle?

We all own rifle that will hit nickels at 200 yds from a bench with a scope sight, and shooting very fast flat trajectory cartridges. However I don't think your BIG BORE bolt rifles will hit nickels at 200 yds any better than a double rifle would hit a nickel at 200 yds even with scope sights. But I'll shoot with you all day hitting the kill zone on a wildebeast and not with just one barrel either.

That would not be as much fun as you say, but that has notheing to do with the type of rifle, but that I simply like to get close whether I'm useing a bolt, single shot, or double rife. To me it is the HUNT that counts, and best hunting, in my opinion, is getting as close as I can without spooking the animal.

I'm not saying the double rifle is a better choice for a dedicated plains game rifle, but then neither is a big bore bolt rifle, and the double rifle is not the handicap that folks want to stamp on it! I don't think anyone would choose a 375 H&H bolt rifle to hit nickels at 200 yds with, or in fact any big bore rifle of any type. What Cha thank?

What Biebs has said about a scoped DR being nothing more than a single shot is somewhat true. The left barrel with a scope can still be useful as a follow up shot (not a back-up shot).

However, the really thing about a scoped DR is that the open sights can be regulated for their best loads at 50 yards, yet use an entirely different load for the scope. This is exactly what I do with all scooped doubles.

As an example, I recently sighted in a Merkel 141 for a customer using his choice of Winchester 180gr Silvertips for close range shooting with the iron sights. We then sighted the scope in at 1" high at 100yds using 165gr NP for longer range shooting.

What a versatile gun for both close range quick shots and for reasonably long shots where real accuracy is needed.

What do you think?

quote:

Originally posted by mdstewart:
What Biebs has said about a scoped DR being nothing more than a single shot is somewhat true. The left barrel with a scope can still be useful as a follow up shot (not a back-up shot).

However, the really thing about a scoped DR is that the open sights can be regulated for their best loads at 50 yards, yet use an entirely different load for the scope. This is exactly what I do with all scooped doubles.

As an example, I recently sighted in a Merkel 141 for a customer using his choice of Winchester 180gr Silvertips for close range shooting with the iron sights. We then sighted the scope in at 1" high at 100yds using 165gr NP for longer range shooting.

What a versatile gun for both close range quick shots and for reasonably long shots where real accuracy is needed.

What do you think?

Follow-up or back-up makes no difference both mean the same thing! Thefirst shot it backed up by the second, or followed-up by the second. Either way you want to say it, the second shot is far faster than it is with a bolt rifle, and uses the same sight setting for both barrels for windage for both barrels, if the scope is properly adjusted. There is absolutely no reason a scope sight can't be used for both barrels, any more than it is for a single barreled rifle.

If I'm reading you correctly you are advocating useing the scope on a double rifle for only one barrel. That is OK if that is what you awnt to do, but it is not necessary. The regulation of a double rifle is not done so that both barrels cross at any range, and all that is done is to hold over for longer shots.

The statement by the maker that the rifle is regulated for 0 yds, or 100 yds only meand the "SIGHTS" are regulated to point to the center of a composite group of both barrels for windage, and elevation at that range. The barrel's physical regulation is to make the barrels shoot parallel not cross at any range.

This is a problem with the way some folks think a double rifle works, and it is not the barrels that are regulated at any particular range, bu the sights for both barrel to form a composit group around the aiming point at that range. Without changing the barrels in any way you could put a lower front sight, or a higher rear sight on the barrels and it would be sighted (REGULATED) at a longer range.

The adjusting of the scope to a different range on a double rifle is no different thasn it is for a single barrel rifle. The sighting point for the irons on a double rifle are exactly half way between the centers of each barrel's individual group. You can make it the same elevation or higher for longer range, but when properly adjusted the scope works with both barrels, not just one.

The idea that the barrels cross at ay range is simply not true. If they do either the barrels were improperly regulatd, or the load is wrong for a properly regulated rifle!

Definitely not saying that a scoped DR should be used simply as a single shot. If the right barrel is used as the primary barrel for sighting then it will be more accurate than the left at some distances. However, both will be effective and definitely faster than a bolt.

The gentleman who started this thread has a Merkel 141, with the adjustable barrels. These barrels are not necessarily regulated from the factory as they are intended to be regulated with the new owner's choice of ammo. This adjustment/regulation is best done by Herbert at Merkel USA who has the correct tooling and will not damage the gun. The big mistake I see with folks who buy the 141 is that they regulate the barrels for scope only. This means the gun has never been regulated for iron sights. What a waste. My point was that he should get the barrels regulated for the iron sights first. He can then snap on the scope and regulate the scope to the barrels, not the other way around. He will then have a very accurate and versatile DR that can be used both ways. He can even use different loads for the scope than for sights, which is a clever way of making the 141 even more versatile.

I am guessing he has never had the barrels properly regulated to the iron sights since his groups are not very good. This gun will almost always regulate for 2", 3" at the most for sights using factory ammo. He needs to select the ammo of choice to have this gun related for iron sights, then stick with that load for his close range work. He can then do what he wants with loads when it comes to the scope, and even change every week with only a few minutes of re-zeroing.

The 141 is very versatile, but a little on the light side for some. Great shooter however.

quote:

Originally posted by mdstewart:
Definitely not saying that a scoped DR should be used simply as a single shot. If the right barrel is used as the primary barrel for sighting then it will be more accurate than the left at some distances. However, both will be effective and definitely faster than a bolt.

I've only owned one double rifle with adjustable regulation, a Valmet O/U double that I bought to re-chamber the barrels from the factory 375 Win to 375 JDJ. So the adjustable regulation made the change easier. The Valmet 375 Win barrels have a 1 in 12” twist so is proper for the 375 JDJ.

On that rifle I re-chambered the barrels and opened up the extractor for the 444-marlin case necked down to .375. At that time the cartridge couldn’t be called 375 JDJ because of the copy right owned by JDJ, so had to be called 444-375. Then regulated the barrels for the new cartridge, to the iron sights, and permanently soldered the adjustments closed, and installed ribs between the barrels. When the scope was added all that was done initially was to clamp the barrel set in a padded vice, with the iron sights lined up on the aiming point on the target at 100 yds. Adjusted the crosshair to the same point as the irons. Then shot the rifle for composite group of both barrels. All that needed be done now was to adjust the scope to whatever zero for distance I wanted. I adjusted the scope to 2” high at 100 yds which was basically ON at 100 yds for snap shooting, but with the scope was on again at 200 yds.

quote:

The big mistake I see with folks who buy the 141 is that they regulate the barrels for scope only. This means the gun has never been regulated for iron sights. What a waste. My point was that he should get the barrels regulated for the iron sights first. He can then snap on the scope and regulate the scope to the barrels, not the other way around.

It is not only a waste but is an improper way to regulate a double rifle. All double rifles whether adjustable regulation of not, the primary sighting system is the iron sights. The scope, on a double rifle, are the secondary sighting system. Even if the owner can’t use the iron sights, regulating the rifle to the irons is the first order of regulation, and the scope adjusted to the same windage as the irons. This allows the irons to be used with both barrels, and the scope to be used for both barrels as well, with the only difference between the two systems if the elevation. It is true that care must be taken as to the weight of the scope and the height it is mounted above the barrels. If the scope is too heavy, and /or mounted too high, the scope will interfere with the recoil arch and destroy the regulation on the target. A scope must be as light as ins possible, and mounted as low as is possible or regulation will usually be impacted adversely.

quote:

He will then have a very accurate and versatile DR that can be used both ways. He can even use different loads for the scope than for sights, which is a clever way of making the 141 even more versatile.

The properly regulated, rifle and properly mounted, and adjusted scope does make for a very versatile double rifle. This might happen in theory with alternative loads, but I doubt the rifle barrels will regulate with those loads unless they are the 75% rule loads, and maybe not even then. The best way to use the scope sight on a double rifle is to adjust the scope for the same load the BARRELS were regulated with, and simply adjust the scope to a longer distance zero.

quote:

I am guessing he has never had the barrels properly regulated to the iron sights since his groups are not very good. This gun will almost always regulate for 2", 3" at the most for sights using factory ammo. He needs to select the ammo of choice to have this gun related for iron sights, then stick with that load for his close range work.

........And for the scope as well because a different load will effect the regulation of the barrels. It is not just a matter of adjusting the scope to the load, the barrels have to be adjusted to that load as well. Only the elevation may be custom adjusted for longer range, much like the flip-up iron sights for longer range which is cut for the same regulating load, the scope must be as well, or the rifle's barrels will not regulate properly.

quote:

He can then do what he wants with loads when it comes to the scope, and even change every week with only a few minutes of re-zeroing.

The above belief is where folks get into trouble when mounting a scope on a double rifle. The rifle still has two barrels the must recoil exactly the same to make the rifle shoot to the regulation of the barrels. Any change in the load to a different weight bullet, or higher or lower speed destroys barrel time, and the rifle will not regulate properly.

quote:

The 141 is very versatile, but a little on the light side for some. Great shooter however.

Way too light for my taste, but the better rifle is no longer made, or at least not imported into the states, the 140E-1 is 8.3 pounds, and has fixed regulation. The barrels are 1 1/2 inch longer, and I find to be far better ballanced. Merkel went to the 141 simply to cut cost, by not haveing the regulate the barrels at the factory,and passed it off as a pluss to the buyer. The 141 shoudl be regulated to what ever load you want, and peranantly blocked at that regulation. I simply do not like adjustable regulation on a double rifle after it is once regulated. Scope or irons. if you change loads you will normally have to re-regulate. I simply ain't worth the trouble!

Still folks can do as they see fit with their own rifles, but I find the adjustable regulation feature on a double rifle to be more problem than it is worth!

quote:

The gentleman who started this thread has a Merkel 141, with the adjustable barrels.

Only the smaller-caliber DRs have adjustable regulation.

quote:

Originally posted by Biebs:

quote:

The gentleman who started this thread has a Merkel 141, with the adjustable barrels.

Only the smaller-caliber DRs have adjustable regulation.

The largest chambering in a Merkel 141 is 9.3X74R. The 140-2 and up are factory regulated. The 140E-1, and 140-1 are conventionally regulated and the largest chambering in that rifle is also the 9.3X74R. As far as I know the mod 141 is the only Merkel with adjustable regulation.

I certainly wish Merkel had not discontinued the 140-1 rifle. I have a 140E-1, 9.3X74R and it is my favorite double rifle. I also have a 140-2 safari, 470NE double that shoots very well. These two rifles are tough customers, and both shoot very well. The 140E-1, 9.3X74R is especially well ballanced, and fits me quite well, making it very easy to do double tapps on running wild boar!

Mac,

I also personally own the 140E-1 and agree that it is a tough customer and better balanced than the 141. Merkel, Germany, has not abandoned this gun, it just hasn't been imported for the last several years.

I am commissioning several of these guns from Merkel USA. They have the first .300H&H in the white and I am trying to get a final answer as to whether they will make this gun in the 140E-1 or only on the beefier safari frame.

If I can convince them to keep it on the 140E-1 frame, I will be bringing in at least 6 guns, 3 of the .300H&H's and 3 in 9.3x74R. I am having these guns guns built without the hogback stock, all will be tastefully lightly engraved with scroll, case colored, manual safeties, built in swing out mounts, and ejectors. I am working on the details of these guns as we speak. They will take about 9-12 months to complete and I will begin taking reservations on them once the details are complete.

The problem with Merkel Germany (not Merkel USA) is to get them 1) to understand that quality of wood is more important than engraving, 2) Americans prefer case colored guns, 3) to get them to agree to regulate barrels using factory loads that we prefer, and 4) to adapt to change.

I love all DR's, but I believe the 140E-1 is the best bang for the buck, is a great shooter, and is the best balanced of the smaller calibre DR's.

I believe I will be able to convince them to produce these guns as requested. The ? unanswered will be as to whether they will make the .300H&H. I really like this calibre for the 140E-1 using 200gr bullets. Not quite the stopping power of the 9.3 but a very versatile and classic calibre. What's your thoughts?

Mac,

Regarding your statement that the scope on a DR should be light, I have found a scope I really like on the 140E-1's and 141's. It's the Leupold Ultralight in 3x9x33. It weights only 8.8 oz and is really quality stuff. For a big bore safari gun I like the Trijicon 1x4x24 with the post reticle and amber triagle. The swing out quick release mounts Merkel is installing now are so much better than previous systems. I prefer to carry my DR's without the scope mounted, even when whitetail hunting, and quickly attach the scope if stationary and expecting a shot where a scope is handy.

I have 2 scopes in rings for my 9,3 Chapuis 9,3x74R. One a 2.5 to 8 Leupold, and a 1.5 to 6x42 Swarovski with illuminated reticle.

Both shoot great to 300 yards tested on paper, proven on game.

NONE of MY doubles "cross". At least out to 300 yards.

quote:

Originally posted by mdstewart:
Mac,

Regarding your statement that the scope on a DR should be light, I have found a scope I really like on the 140E-1's and 141's. It's the Leupold Ultralight in 3x9x33. It weights only 8.8 oz and is really quality stuff. For a big bore safari gun I like the Trijicon 1x4x24 with the post reticle and amber triagle. The swing out quick release mounts Merkel is installing now are so much better than previous systems. I prefer to carry my DR's without the scope mounted, even when whitetail hunting, and quickly attach the scope if stationary and expecting a shot where a scope is handy.

The bold print above mirrors my own thinking. IMO, the double rifle with a well made scope in fine Quick-deatch mounts, and rings, and good iron sights are the perfect HUNTING rifle. However, most use that combination backwards!
The iron sights are primary sighting system, and the scope is a secondary, or speciality sighting system. This exactly the opposite of the bolt rifle with the QD rings and bases. The scope being primary on the bolt rifle, and scope being removed for special purposes.

I too like to carry my scoped double rifle with the scope removed, and in a case on my ammo belt. This is especially good when still hunting of game in woods, and when finding bedded deer or other game at some range, or when the light is failing. The scope can be attached instantly for a long shot or to gather light. The Trigicon scopes are nice for sitting a blind over bait for black bear, or,cats!

Mac,

We obviously think along the same lines. Thanks for your imput and experience. Mike