OK, here goes... I recently bought a Merkel .470 NE. As I'm saving up for that first Africa trip...so it's reloading for me.

I've read a bit about the dangers (to the rifle) of shooting solids in a DR. Would I be safe shooting the following:
- Woodleigh solids (has a lead core I can see in the base)
- Solids with multiple small bands that engage the rifling

Matt

I'd lean toward the ones with the driving bands, like Northfork and GS custom. The bullet rides down the bore on the bands, not the body of the bullet. And you should get a velocity boost with the same load without increased pressure (or load it with less powder to get the same velocity).

As for other solids, there is a lot of concern regarding increased pressure and potential barrel damage. I'd see what Merkel says concerning their use in your double before I tried them.

My thinking is why tempt fate.

quote:

Originally posted by Badger Matt:

- Solids with multiple small bands that engage the rifling

These need to be divided into two categories:

A. GOOD ONES. Made by GS Custom (www.gscustom.co.za) and North Fork (www.northforkbullets.com). These have very thin driving bands that engrave on the rifling very easily, making them safe for double rifles. This configuration of bullet allows the material displaced from a driving band to be accomodated into the groove that follows the band.

GS Custom:



B. NOT SO GOOD ONES. Made by Barnes and Rhino Bullets. These don't have driving bands at all. Instead they have a few grooves on the side, but there are large regions on the side of the bullet without grooves. The grooves do not accommodate displacement of material on the sides of the bullet as the bullet is engraved by the rifling. Therefore the barrels will bulge slightly as the bullet moves into it and this can break the barrels away from the rib. On old doubles with barrels made from soft steel, some people think that this effect can actually push the rifling pattern to the outside of the barrels so that rifling actually becomes visible on the outside of the barrels. Better to reserve these bullets for modern bolt guns.

C. Don't forget the excellent cup nose solids from North Fork. Note the very thin driving bands:

Yes on the Woodleighs though you should keep the number down. Develop your loads with the Woodleigh softs and then double check with the solids to see what adjustments you might need to get your solids shooting to where the softs are. You will likely find that you need to drop the powder load a bit. After you work up to your soft load, don't forget to drop 5% to work up your solids.

I shoot North Fork flat nose solids, which are one of the "driving band" bullets you describe - numerous thin bands to engrave on the rifling but a shank that is smaller than land diameter. You will love the North Forks, they shoot great for me and penetration is phenominal. A great elephant bullet in my experience.

If you are looking to hunting buff, you should load North Fork cup point solids too. Great penetration reported - 20% less than the flat nose solid, which has more pentration than is needed for buff.

Great reports on North Fork softs too.

Good Luck,

JPK

I agree with 500 grains. My first double in the '80s was a Heym 470. I shot monometal solids like sledgehammer solids and one day noted liquid dripping down into the breech staining it. The gunsmith said it was silver solder coming from the quarter rib and he repaired it. I did not associate this at the time with shooting these solids. Northfork makes a great solid.

I hate to break it to you, but Sledgehammer is not a monometal solid. If you're concerned I would stick with FMJs from WOODLEIGH***, or Hornady.
***=it helps to use those with which the rifle was regulated in the first place.
Most makers don't use 'GUCCImo', but more commonly found ammo brands to regulate their rifles. There are some exceptions Rigby of CA uses custom loaded Superior ammo. I imagine it cuts down on range time in that shed of theirs. If I remember correctly with their special rig it takes two boxes of ammo or less in most cases.
PS. Congrats on purchase of a wonderful rifle.

In my Merkel 470, 89 gr of RL 15 and a Kynoch foam wad under a 500 gr NF cup or solid gave a chrono'd velocity of 2200 fps. This load shot to the same POA as the Federal factories and Woodleigh softs when they were loaded over 90 gr of RL 15 and the same foam wad. The Federals and Woodleigh reloads chrono'd around 2160 fps if I recall correctly.
If DG were the only thing on your double's menu, I'd use NF's and never look back.

Gary
DRSS
NRA Lifer
SCI

quote:

Originally posted by Paolo9,5x73:
If you're concerned I would stick with FMJs from WOODLEIGH***,

Not to be contrary, but it is fallacy to think that Woodleigh FMJs are kind to doubles. The regulators at H&H know the ill effects that Woodleigh FMJs have on doubles, so they do all of their regulating with softs and then just fire a couple of FMJs to see if the POI is ok. Woodleigh FMJs are fine if shot in moderation. But a GS Custom or North Fork engraves on the rifling easier, generates less barrel heat and less fouling.

I totally agree with 500grains comments .....

quote:

Originally posted by 500grains:

quote:

Originally posted by Paolo9,5x73:
If you're concerned I would stick with FMJs from WOODLEIGH***,

The regulators at H&H know the ill effects that Woodleigh FMJs have on doubles, so they do all of their regulating with softs and then just fire a couple of FMJs to see if the POI is ok.

...and why on earth would anyone do it any other way?

quote:

Woodleigh FMJs are fine if shot in moderation.

Which is all that is needed.

quote:

But a GS Custom or North Fork engraves on the rifling easier,

I disagree. Some buy every new brand of snake oil that comes down the pike. I don't. Holland & Holland still use Woodleigh exclusively because?...just maybe they don't believe it either?

The Woodleigh has a lead core. From working with a double that I have to size down off the rack bullets for, I can tell you that the Woodleigh steel solid DOES compress relatively easily - much more easily that a Swift A Frame for example. I've had the experience of wrecking a fine double with solid copper bullets. They don't have a compressable core, so the barrel has to give instead of the bullet. Being stylish isn't worth it, especially when the conventional alternative works just fine. There is no mono-metal bullet that is safe in a double rifle.
-----------------------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

400,

You know that I don't agree with you regarding the North Forks and other "driving band" bullets. The lands don't touch the shank...But, really, the Woodleighs do not compare to North Forks flat nose solids when it comes to the performance anyone is looking for form a solid, penetration being the paramount goal.

You must have been the last fellow to switch to those stylish percussion caps and then to breech loading rifles, nitro powders, "hamerless" rifles or even to ejectors...OOPS, you haven't made that switch yet!

JPK

Thanks very much guys. I happen to have a box of both the GS Custom and North Fork solids on hand and will give 'em a try. I'll hold off on using the Woodleighs...unless I just can't get the others to shoot well for me.

Now I need to find some loads for lighter bullets (425gr, 400gr, 355gr, etc...) using either RL15 or IMR4831...

quote:

Originally posted by 400 Nitro Express:

quote:

But a GS Custom or North Fork engraves on the rifling easier,

I disagree.

Push a GS Custom FN solid through one of your rifles with a wooden dowel. It's pretty easy to do. Then try it with a Woodleigh FMJ solid. It's impossible without using a hammer.

quote:

Originally posted by 400 Nitro Express:
I've had the experience of wrecking a fine double with solid copper bullets. They don't have a compressable core, so the barrel has to give instead of the bullet.

That is true of an X bullet or a TSX, but it is NOT THE CASE with a GS Custom FN solid or a North Fork FN solid or cup nose solid. Being afraid of a North Fork FN solid because a Barnes wrecked your double is like being afraid of a garter snake because a black mamba killed your PH.

I like the idea of pushing bullets through

barrels by hand to size up this matter.

Hi Badger,
It's your rifle, shoot anything that you want in it! While I have examined a English rifle that had the barrels over stressed with monolithic solids you probably won't hurt your rifle. From the stand point of hunting if you shoot well it will not make even the slightest difference in the out come what bullet you use. Now if you want something that is important to obsess about, worry about how much you will fire and dry fire your rifle before you hunt with it. The really important load for your rifle is a plinking load that you can afford to shoot lots of. Shoot it lots. Practice dry fire and fast reloading in the garage. If you can, use it to hunt deer or hogs. If you can, take walks in the woods with your rifle. Practice aiming with iron sights in different light conditions. Aim and follow squirrels rabbits , what ever. If you can't do that..... Don't tell the wife... but the cat makes a great aiming opportunity in the back yard ( make Damn sure it's just snap caps in the gun). See how long you can hold the gun up like you might have to while you wait for the Elephant/ kitty to take one more step from behind the jess/flowers. Learn what your range limitations are. Understand that an iron sighted double rifle is a close range affair. Learn those limitations and be determined to turn down any shot that is out side your ability. Study Study Study the anatomy of the animal that you are hunting. Know exactly how to pass a bullet through the brain or heart, lungs and great vessels in the chest. Once you have all that sorted out take a few minutes to worry/obsess about what kind of bullet to use. Just remember that MILLIONS of big game animals have be harvested very nicely with all kinds of softs and solids out of the 470. It's all good! just enjoy.
e

Badger:

Try some lighter loads with 5744 powder. I'm not at the bench right now, but some can chime in. I used Hornady 400 gr bullets for the 480 Ruger...shot them at about 1800 fps over a load of about 47-48 grains of 5744...no filler. They shot within an inch or so of the full house 470 loads....with a lot less recoil.

Gary
DRSS
NRA Lifer
SCI

els,

Yes, Woodleighs will work, most all of the time. But until you have tried a flat nose solid, especially on elephants, you couldn't believe the improvement in performance and the additional margin of penetration they provide. This is especially beneficial when the elephant is above you and you need to shoot through a lot of trunk to get to the brain, or on a heart/lung shot or a raking shot.

When it comes to buffalo, the North Fork flat nose solids provide more penetration than is neccesary. I've managed to put one from stern through the backbone and then through the boss. Probably better to use the North Fork cup point for greater wound channel and 20% est reduced penetration, which would make it better than the Woodleigh solid for both penetration and wound channel.

Oh, and the North Forks are more accurate, at least in my rifle and others who have tried them.

JPK

And they foul less, develop less pressure and more velocity...

From practical point H&H regulators are irrelevant. How many use a NEWLY made H&H double rifle for hunting. Those things are like 'Canary Yellow' Winston diamonds 'for red carpet only'!
Didn't they recommend Gamebore tin as non-tox shot option in their smoothbores not long ago? That's when Bismuth was already readily available.

400 Nitro Express,

quote:

There is no mono-metal bullet that is safe in a double rifle.

Your opinion, to which you are entitled, is based on your experience with a smooth or grooved monometal bullet and probably brass/bronze as well. You are wrong. Copper drive band solids are as different from smooth and grooved mono solids as a bolt rifle is from a double.

GS Custom drive band bullets have been around for more than ten years and is proved to be easier on the bore of any rifle than any smooth sided or grooved bullet ever in production.

If anyone can point to a GS Custom bullet as the cause for damage to the barrels of a double, we will foot the bill for the repair. This is a hollow statement because we know it can not happen.

quote:

I can tell you that the Woodleigh steel solid DOES compress relatively easily - much more easily that a Swift A Frame for example.

Run a GS Custom FN through the same process and you will wonder what is wrong for the lack of effort and pressure it will take. Having done that, do not shoot the swaged GSC in the rifle because you shall have removed the very feature that makes it so safe in a double. We probably have a bullet in the size you need so there is no reason to squeeze them down, other than convincing yourself of the facts.

quote:

They don't have a compressable core, so the barrel has to give instead of the bullet.

With drive band bullets this is not true. The shaft does not need to be compressable because it is not engraved. The fact that the drive band bullet shaft resists compression prevents it from compressing lengthwise and expanding laterally, as lead core bullets do. This further reduces the pressure and friction on the barrel wall, compared to lead core bullets.

It takes anywhere from 8,000 psi to 12,000 psi to move a lead core bullet through the freebore and leade of a barrel to fully engraved. A drive band bullet requires less than 1,500 psi.

Do not be fooled by manufacturers who call their bullets banded bullets when they are actually grooved. There is no comparison.

Gerard,

There is a similar thread in the double rifles forum at www.nitroexpress.com and some chaps have run aground! Your assistance is urgently needed!

500grains,
Just been there, thanks. That reminds me. Try this with anything other than a real drive band bullet.

Being a simple layman, not one who possesses a

physics phd. this "driving band" concept seems

very logical. The promise made by www.gscustom.co.za

to pay for any damage done to a vintage double

caused by using their bullets generates confidence

in potential customers IMO.