I currently have a Merkel 141-E in 9.3x74R. It has a Leupold 1.25x4 Fire Dot scope on it. I just returned from South Africa where I successfully used it to kill plains game up to eland at ranges from 42 - 220 yards. I could not be more satisfied. The rifle performed great and the Norma and Barnes bullets I used (in factory ammo) killed everything in a more than satisfactory manner. After all the frustration of owning a double rifle, I am happy and confident with my little SxS rifle.

Now, I need another double rifle. For cartridges I am thinking 450/400, 450 NE or 500/416. For rifles I am thinking Heym, VC and Merkel. I will want to mount an optic on it and will use it on anything I choose to shoot with it.

I appreciate everyone's constructive and educated thoughts and recommendations.


Safe travels and safe shooting................Larry

With the big bore doubles like 450-400 or 450NE i would have it set up for use with a light weight and compact Doctor Optic type sight to assist in the rifles balance, practicality, regulation and reliability.
Of the modern doubles in the "use" price range i would look at Heym or Verney Carron.

I have all three and I like them all. and a 500 which is too much of a good thing.
I think there was a Searcy 450 on AR a short time back. I have one and it is very accurate. 450-400s are nice and kick less than your 9.3, seems like.
416 double rifle?; just no.

Probably means the 500-416, not a Rigby (I hope).

I know; still, no. Not a traditional DR caliber.

I was thinking the 500-416. As stated, the 450/400 and the 450 NE are classic cartridges and will handle anything I want to tackle.

Decisions, decisions........

I am trying to work a deal right now with George Caswell of Champlin Arms. If we work the trade he will have exactly what you are looking for. I am trading a Heym 88 PH with up graded wood, flip up night sight, three leaf express sights, factory claw mounts and Swarovski 1-6 z6i illuminated reticle scope in 450-400. The rifle is factory regulated for 100 meters and like new. If something happens and we don't make a trade I will PM you about the rifle if you are interested. If we do trade I'm sure George will have it listed unless he already has a buyer lined up while working the deal with me.

quote:

Originally posted by dpcd:
I know; still, no. Not a traditional DR caliber.

You are correct,not a traditional caliber,but it's boringly accurate & lethal on game,I bought myself a K-gun awhile ago,shot a buff & was very impressed.

Larry, if you like the Merkel in 9.3x74R, why not just get one in 450-400 or whatever you want?

That is one of my considerations. I like the Merkel and am happy with mine but would like to try something different. If I decide on 450-400 I will probably go with the Merkel.

Is the 450-400 a big leap in power over the 9.3x74R?

Safe shooting......Larry

In a double rifle, I like the bigger calibers, but many guys love the 450-400 for its power-to-recoil ratio.

I'm a BIG fan of the 450-400. And I have all the others up to 577. If a guy was not going to shoot a lot of Elephants I think the 450-400 is just perfect. They balance and carry so much better than the 450's on up in my opinion. If I were limited to (God Forbid) just one double the 400 would be it.

quote:

Originally posted by SFRanger7GP:
That is one of my considerations. I like the Merkel and am happy with mine but would like to try something different. If I decide on 450-400 I will probably go with the Merkel.

Is the 450-400 a big leap in power over the 9.3x74R?

Safe shooting......Larry

No it's not a big leap in power over the 9.3,but you are shooting a heavier bullet & the knock out effect will be greater,my primitive way of explaining it

quote:

Originally posted by McKay:
I'm a BIG fan of the 450-400. And I have all the others up to 577. If a guy was not going to shoot a lot of Elephants I think the 450-400 is just perfect. They balance and carry so much better than the 450's on up in my opinion. If I were limited to (God Forbid) just one double the 400 would be it.

Mckay,
I have not shot any big game with my 450-400,just one black bear so far,I like the rifle,it's a Heym,I am sure it is adequate for all game,listening to the experiences of others on here,but I always wonder if this round with less than 4000 ft lbs of energy is the gun to have in hand when the shit hits the fan? I know that shot placement is the key etc,with a backup it's proabably not an issue,but I would feel undergunned maybe if alone? What game have you taken with your 400?& how was your experience?

The 450-400 is not a big step up in energy-
Nominal energys are:
9.3 -3538
450-400 3742
450 4977
470 5132
500 5840
577 7000

And while muzzle energy does correlate linearly with killing power or recoil-
Most of us seem to prefer a larger bore diameter on the "bigger stuff".

Though many buffalo, hippo and ele have fallen to smaller bores.

Recoil seems to be the separation point for many shooters and the larger bores.
The 450-400 is a "Gentleman's Compromise"
and one that is widely loved by many,
myself included, with its longish bullets for caliber, it penetrates well, and kills effectively.

Physical recoil is simply physics,
which is different than perceived recoil-
which is subjective in a different manner to each shooter.

The same gun fired by different shooters may experience recoil considerably differently
due to gun shape and fit, as well as shooters grip/hold and shooting position.

Your current scoped 9.3 double (est. 9 #) with a nominal 286 load @ 2300
Should on average produce recoil about 28ft/lbs@ 14fps.

With nominal loads for caliber here are a few others:
10.5# scoped 450/400 - about 37 & 15.
10.5# Doctor equipped 450 -about 57 & 18.
11.5# scoped 450 - about 50 & 16 (470's are similar, dependent on frame size)
12# Doctor equipped 500 - about 66 & 18.
14# Doctor equipped 577- about 88 & 20.

All the above are a step up in recoil from your current rifle.
Dependent on your recoil tolerance and weight carrying tolerance all are feasible .

The largest scoped double I have owned was a 470,
I have fired scoped 500's and one in 577.
(BTW, the owner of the 577 was deadly accurate @ 200 plus yds)

As with anything personal preferences of esthetics come into play,
Many dislike scope on DRs, as I age ,in order to use them effectively,
I prefer claw mounted scopes and Doctor sights.

Having owned many, my thoughts-
If you are keeping your 9.3 , I suggest a 450 or 470.
If you are parting with the 9.3 ,my choice would be a scoped 450/400.

Other parting advice,
Heym, I own a few

Happy Hunting

+1 on the Heym.

I second (or third, or whatever) the .450-400. I've shot more game with my .450-400 Harrison and Hussey ble than all of my other doubles combined.
A dozen or more caribou (longest 195 yards) moose, bear, water buffalo, white tail, cape buffalo, leopard, lion, croc, hippo, sable, warthog, nyala, impala, kudu, poacher's dogs, etc. The best all around rifle if big game is the major quarry. I'd give the nod to the .375 if medium game was the quarry with a few larger animals at times.
Just my two trillion Zim notes…
Cal

quote:

Originally posted by Steven Dawson:
...I am trading a Heym 88 PH with up graded wood ...

I loved this whole thread but probably for the wrong reasons. While no two rifles ever have exactly the same grain, the original wood in my 88PH laughs at the funeral-grade action finish.

I like Clan_Colla's post on recoil energy, too, quoting not only foot-pounds but velocity as well. It surprises me that an over-weight .450/.400 moves faster than the 9.3. Are we to assume the .400 is not shooting the Hornady tropical load?

The 450=400 is a great caliber and Heym makes a great rifle. I wouldn't even be working a trade on my Heym if it wasn't for the fact I can't shoot it well because I lost the tip of my trigger finger. Double rifles are truly a disease and I just can't accept the fact I can't shoot them anymore and keep buying them in hopes I will somehow be able to shoot them again even without the finger. Maybe I can someday find a single trigger classical style double rifle that is affordable. It seems the only ones you see are like Hemmingway's or Southerland's .577 that are single trigger guns, which are incredibly expensive. It is a taboo, a single trigger double, but I think there would have to be a market. There are plenty of 9.3x74's with single triggers and I think there would be a lot of demand for the bigger calibers with a single trigger at an affordable price.

The "nominal loads" for the 450-400 were for a 400gr @ 2070 (rather than 2050 or 2150).

Steve Dawson
A Good gunsmith can install a single trigger for you.

Personally i love the 450 and since I reload the selection of bullets is endless.
The 500/416 is excellent in all regards except bullet selection, but premium bullets are available and will work well in this cartridge.

My 2c.

Nitro

quote:

Originally posted by cal pappas:
I second (or third, or whatever) the .450-400. I've shot mroe game with my .450-400 Harrison and Hussey ble than all of my other doubles combined.
A dozen or more caribou (longest 195 yards) moose, bear, water buffalo, white tail, cape buffalo, leopard, lion, croc, hippo, sable, warthog, nyla, impala, kudu,some poacher's dogs, etc. The best all around rifle if big game is the major quarry. I'd give the nod to the .375 if medium game was the quarry with a few larger animals at times.
Just my two trillion Zim notes…
Cal

Gentlemen! The above post is a very fair and thoughtful response by a man who is admittedly, and ultra big bore fan, with rifles up to 4 bore double rifles!

I have to agree with Cal on this one. He stated this preference for the ultra big bores for himself, but understands the value of a a usable double rifle like the 450-400 3" for weight, balance and simply the ease of learning to shoot a rifle that is easier to carry all day and still get off quick follow-up shots if needed. I happen to love the 450-400NE 3" in an rifle that weighs in at around 10 lbs, and have every confidence that it will handle anything I will hunt if I do my part!

I personally have two 9.3X74R doubles, but sadly my best big bore double is a 470NE. I sold my A&N 450-400NE 3" several years ago and have regretted it ever since! Because at my age I will likely never go back to Africa, so I am thinking about selling my 470NE double and buying a new 450-400NE 3" double for the hunting I can still do!

What ever you decide, it will work out I'm sure!
.....................................................................Mac

Thanks to Clan Colla for his comment on nominal loads for the 450-400.
When I was working up 400 grain .411 Woodleigh loads for my .405 Winchester, my hunting buddy had me stop at 2076 fps because that was the regulation velocity of a .450-400 double he had made and used to take numerous ele, buff, hippo, etc. He loaned it to clients also and one them bought it.
I can attest to the effectiveness of that load on Cape Buff, bison, and water buff. I have yet to try it on hippo or ele.

Thanks Zephyr

I have called Griffin and Howe and Merkel and tried to get them to convert the last Merkel 500 I had to single trigger, but neither would do it. Maybe I haven't tried hard enough and if George and I don't come to terms on a trade I will really double down on the effort. I feel I'm kind of obligated to George right now because he really is interested in the Heym.

Tell me, does Merkel make a single trigger? If so, could you purchase it and then have your 'smith install it?
Cal

I'm about to be the proud owner of a Merkel with a single trigger and would gladly swap it for a double trigger, with or without set function....but I bet the two rifles are not compatible. 141

There is no shame in using a single trigger when you have a special physical need, Steven. A good one, timed 'mechanically', rather than by recoil inertia, is probably more reliable than a long-action magazine rifle that might be short-stroked when SHTF.

That 'nominal' load, Clan_Colla, is certainly close to the tropical load and I'm amazed you don't consider it one. When I bought my Heym .450/.400, I could have had an old Jeffery, which seemed better balanced, for not much more. The Jeffery only had 24" barrels, though, and I felt that with the calibre's marginal DG power another two inches might lift the velocity 50fps.

The dealer couldn't even tell me whether the Jeffery was 3" or 3.25 but, had it been regulated for Kynoch ammo, it may still have given higher velocity than the Heym-chosen Hornadys.

Most 450-400's whether 3" or 3 1/4" never averaged 2150 with Cordite.
The typical 3" Jeffery load was a 55gr Cordite load.
Some of 3 1/4 loads were 55,56 and 60 gr of Cordite.

The predominance of the older rifles I have loaded for
regulate with 400 gr softs in the 2030 to 2080 range
irrespective of bore diameter or gunmaker or powder (4831,RL15, etc)

Bore diameters have ranged from .406 to .412, most being either .408 or .410.
One rifle even had bores of different measure ,one 408 the other 410.

When a manufacturer chooses a regulation cartridge , several considerations come into play.
Consistency of velocity being the primary consideration, availability in the market is another and of course there are other factors.

As to Hornady, my opinon ,
they did as much or more to revive the double rifle as any company.

As a DR lover I am grateful for their DR ammo and brass and support of our sport.

Thanks Clan_Colla, I find your erudition impressive.

Could the two barrels of different bore(?) diameters in one rifle be accidental or batch-related? Perhaps the .410 barrel was made when the tooling was new, and set aside. Could the second barrel have been made some time later when the cutters had worn?

I am grateful to Hornady, too, especially for their pricing.

How did the gun shoot with different diameters?

My assumption was barrels from two batches of production,
or from different sub-contactors
or just an error.

The rifle shot reasonably well with either 408's or 410's.
I had no factory ammunition back then, all were handholds.

To make it shoot better I loaded 408 Left and 410 Right using a black marker to identify the left shells and red marker for the right.

Reloading for a 280 Flanged I had similar experience , the barrels slugged 286 and 289
For that rifle I used the same diameter bullets and reduced powder on the left barrel.

Imagine grabbing for the correct cartridges in a hot, steamy jungle, faced with a not-so-tim'rous beastie

Search is over. vlwtx348, who is an enabler for gun addicted people, sent me a link to a B.Searcy 450NE that was lightly used and full of upgrades. I bought it.

Thanks to everyone who posted and emailed their thoughts.

Safe shooting...........Larry

Congratulations. Enjoy it immensely!

Cal,

I called George back today to see if he had found a 30mm scope to fit the Johannsen we had been working the trade on with the Heym. He said he was still working on finding a scope for the Johannsen. He has now had the Heym for almost 3 weeks and it seemed like he was too busy to really talk, saying he was still working on it. When I sent him the Heym I knew he was getting a very good deal on the Johannsen because he has had the rifle listed for at least 8 years. I have been looking at it that long. At what point does being a gentleman and offering someone a great deal end, as opposed to getting your rifle back and starting over? Don't get me wrong, I have bought some great guns from George in the past and we have always been able to complete our deals fast. I guess he is really busy right now. I think the best course to take would be wait a week. If I don't hear from George thank him for his trouble, pay him the return shipping and insurance and have the Heym sent back. If that happens I will work on finding someone to install a single trigger.

quote:

Originally posted by SFRanger7GP:
Search is over. vlwtx348, who is an enabler for gun addicted people, sent me a link to a B.Searcy 450NE that was lightly used and full of upgrades. I bought it.

Thanks to everyone who posted and emailed their thoughts.

Safe shooting...........Larry

I'm just glad to see someone else be weak!

I really need to blacklist myself from all gun sales and auction sites....

I just sent George a final offer to finish the deal on my Heym. If he can't transfer a scope from another rifle he has in his inventory, and he has a NECG that will work, to the Johannsen I will message Aaron Little. It should easily for Aaron to convert the Heym to a single trigger since he is building doubles, up to 600 nitro from shotgun actions. I will just have to wait for George to respond to my email on Monday, out of doing what is right as to opposed to what is financially sensible.

George messaged me late last night and has a very good reason for the deal taking so long. I thought what had been happening was completely out of character for George because he is a great person to deal with.