Let's say you are looking for a bigger double than your trusty 9,3X74R. Probably a 450 3 1/4 but we won't argue about caliber at this time. Now, if your budget was around the price of a Heym 88B PH, would you buy an old double with a lot of character and history from a reputable dealer or seller or go the new rifle route? And yes, it would probably get shot a whole bunch. Of course, I want reliability, fit, and function but I love the way those old doubles look. Fire away.

Old, if sound. I would prefer a .470 NE, but that's because I have one and it kills big stuff.

Rich
DRSS

Old.

Dutch

It is sort of difficult to validate "history". A new Heym PH is about $17K. I doubt you are going to find a gun with meaningful historical value for $17K.
I believe you have made up your mind on what you want so do not ask for too much advice. Buy the gun that fits you and shoots straight and MAKE YOUR OWN HISTORY and pass the gun down to your decendents with stories attached to it.
Good hunting!

EZ

first off, it is doubtfull you will find a real sound older double rifle in a good chambering, for the price of an 88B Heym! If you do find one that will shoot well, and is not worn out for that price, it will likely be chambered for a cartridge that is hard to find loaded, and almost as hard to find componants for to handload. The one redeeming factor is the colllector value of the old Britt, and in some cases is worth the price for an investment.
Another thing you need to get straight in you mind is what happens when the old Britt is lost or damaged in transit, Can you replace that rifle, or will it start a long search for something close to what you lost?

Now with the Heym PH model, if insured, can be replace with one exactly like the one you lost, in just a few weeks. The new rifle is made of much better steel, made today the barrels are starting out new, and regulated with modern NE ammo or your own handload if that is what you want, and every one of them coming off the line today will have the same land & grouve measurements.

There is nothing wrong with the old Britt rifles, as long as you find one that is in top shape, and not some of the pimped up junk on the used market today. However If the old rifle is in anywhere near the condition of a new Heym, it will cost you far more than a new Heym PH model!

If you are thinking about buying your first double rifle, it has always been my opinion that one new to double rifles should always buy NEW for his first double, especially one in a large chambering, that will be used on dangerous game, and have to travel by air to the safari. Just my two pennys!

Old hands down. Craftsmanship isn't the same. Be patient looking for one with everything you want. For a boxlock extractor in .450 with good bores and reasonable shape and some to a lot of engraving. Westley Richards, Champlin Arms, and Guns International are good websites to check regularly. I'd expect to pay 18-25k for this type of rifle.

Brett

Another observation on this topic. Most mechanical devices have one thing in common. If you use them for a while and take care of them they get "broken in". They simply function better, they loose all the rough edges. A car motor with 30,000 miles will typically get better gas milage and performance than a brand new motor (if you take care of it).
You can make that new gun as smooth as the old one, you just have to get out and put some miles on it!

Nostalgia is neat BUT new hands down, shoot the crap out of it, scratch it, drag it, drop it, dunk it in the river and shoot it some more. Save the rest of your money and go on a DG trip to Africa and shoot something with it. When I'm hunting with my Heym PH I treat it no different than my CZ 22lr that's worth 200.00 it's a well functioning tool though it's not as pretty as Brett's DR.

What Mac said.

I'm with Mac and Will!

+ 3 for Mac,

Just don't get one with one trigger like Will,
tee hee hee


Good luck on your search and good shooting
Tetonka

The problem with getting an old Brit gun is finding one that: is in good shape, including bores, is a caliber you want, fits you or can be modified to fit you without destroying the collector value, the weight you want (lots of 11 to 12lb 470s out there), has the extras you want such as ejectors and barrel length and that you can afford. finding the right one is often a futile undertaking. It won't be easy or inexpensive. You can have a new one made to your specs by someone like Butch Searcy for much less money.

465H&H

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:
The problem with getting an old Brit gun is finding one that: is in good shape, including bores, is a caliber you want, fits you or can be modified to fit you without destroying the collector value, the weight you want (lots of 11 to 12lb 470s out there), has the extras you want such as ejectors and barrel length and that you can afford. finding the right one is often a futile undertaking. It won't be easy or inexpensive. You can have a new one made to your specs by someone like Butch Searcy for much less money.

465H&H

Agree about fit, but it is easy to adapt to a gun that nearly fits and most english guns
are made to dimensions that should be able to be used by most people.

As to weight, I think some people's expectations are OTT and 10 - 11lbs is not that heavy.
Yes, lighter is nice but ..........

Bore condition - so what if it has cordite burn at the start of the barrel,
if it shoots well, we will never wear it out in our lifetime.

I'm in nearly the same boat. Have a new Heym PH but have been looking at Champlin's Boswell. Restock? How bad does that hurt? Then there's the Army and Navy and a nice Lang, Hollis, and several more. Trade A new gun for a 70-100 year ol gun? I am still ponderin. Going to go look this week anyhow.I know if I trade they will want 5 or 10 boot but I am little ahead anyhow.Of the guns he has for 25 or less which ones do you like?

For a little under $20,000 you can have the best of both worlds if you shop around for a lightly used nicer grade continental gun. I've noticed a few Ferlach and Belgan double rifles on the net recently in the $15 - $20,000 range. These were guns as good as any British boxlock.

Check this one out it is a whole lot of gun for the money.

http://www.gunsinternational.c...cfm?gun_id=100132848

Here's some rifles:

http://www.westleyrichards.com...product.php?id=26181

http://www.champlinarms.com/De...StyleID=3&GunID=1883

Brett

quote:

Originally posted by catosilvaje:
Champlin......Then there's the Army and Navy and a nice Lang, Hollis, and several more

Nope! The Hollis is mine. Not sure why it's still up.

Brett

If I'm hunting mainly for the enjoyment of the hunt, and the enjoyment of using a double, I'll take "old".
If I'm guiding, or hunting real hard, I'd prefer to be using a "new" or not so old double.

If you are into old guns, then maybe an old double bought from a trusted dealer is for you.
On the other hand, if you intend to hunt real hard and put squillions of rounds through it, maybe an 88B is a better proposition.

Bottom line is to maybe get both, old classic English plus a new Heym as well, and have fun with both!

If you intend to use the rifle quite a bit, buy new. Think of it like buying a car. You might pay $35K for a decent 57 Thunderbird, but you could get a new BMW 3 series for that. Sure the T'Bird would be cool...but if you're buying a car for transportation, not the most practical decision.

Vote for new. About the only "classic" I would have a desire to own is a 67 Corvette. Even then, my 09 has more power, gets better mileage, and handles better. The 67 just looks good. Never was caught up in the entire nostalgia thing. Rifles are tools to use, nothing more. And the more dependable they are the better.

Put me on the list for "new" also. Like Biebs, I look at these as tools to be used. Don't get me wrong - I'm a nostalgia buff too, but my '71 'Cuda will never be my daily driver nor will it hit the track whereas any of my race cars - if I break it, no problem fixing or replacing it - yes $$$ but no issue of "it isn't original any longer".
If it is a wall-hanger or safe-queen - different story. If you use a historic piece for it's intended purpose with no more regard than you would have for any of your hunting tools, then go nostalgic. I don't think I would personally be able to risk an irreplaceable double of historic value - but again that's my personal view on my own practices.

Doc couldn't have said it better... A historical rifle would be retired with afew shots. A new one just bang away and have fun.

Mike

I've done both. I've bought quite a few vintage british doubles and sold a few. They have all sold for a profit. The key is to have a qualified gunsmith like JJ check them out. If they pass his inspection and I like the gun I take them home. I've had as many fail inspection as pass.

I had a LH Chapuis 9.3 built a couple years back and it will soon be for sale. I know many people like them but it doesn't do it for me. No offense to those that have a Chapuis.

There is nothing that feels like a vintage british gun but you have to know what you are doing or rely on an expert like JJ or you can get burned badly. There are a lot of worn out rifles out there.

Take your time and be patient and when you find the right vintage one you'll be glad you did.