Why were older English Doubles fitted with 400 ,500 ,600 yard leafs ? whether that was just the fashion to have them back then ?

Wishful thinking and probably a sales inducement to show off the capabilities of their rifles ability. Just my 2 cents worth.

Dutch

I think Dutch is right on--to show how accurate the rifle could shoot. Sales hype. I've shot a lot of doubles and never used anything than the first leaf. As an interesting side bar I saw a .600 sighted to 700 yards and a .577 bpe sighted to 1200 yards.
Cal
PS. In addition, they do look cool!

Well Cal, if anyone can shoot a .600 to 700 yards my money would be on you.


Dutch

Was shooting with a friend at a local range, he was prone playing with a 308 and a 200yrd 48"x48"gong, I had my Gibbs 450 on the rack flipped up my 200yrd sight and tossed a handful of 480s down range and managed to hit it more than a few times.
Lots of fun and good to know

Does anyone know whether the British gunmakers actually shot the rifles/filed in the sights based on the distances on the sight leafs or did they "guesstimate" how to cut them based on general ballistics?

Mike, I have always taken you seriously…until now!

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
Does anyone know whether the British gunmakers actually shot the rifles/filed in the sights based on the distances on the sight leafs or did they "guesstimate" how to cut them based on general ballistics?

Mike:
In my limited experience…
I have had leaf sights installed as replacements. The first leaf is shot to target, the height of the remaining leafs (or is it leaves?) are measured by calculation. I don't know how they did it in the old days but I can't imagine they had ranges out to 500 yards and more. The time and expense to shoot each to regulation would be very time consuming.
Cal

quote:

Originally posted by tankhunter:
Why were older English Doubles fitted with 400 ,500 ,600 yard leafs ? whether that was just the fashion to have them back then ?

Yeah, as others have said, sales hype, and Westley Richards pushed it harder than most.

They were the varible scopes of the day

Some people used to have a cavalier attitude to humane kills, as some do today. I used to know a bloke who claimed to have shot lots of red deer in NZ at 600 yards using the open sights on his Lee-Metford.

As to testing higher leaves: until rangefinders came along, long distance shots on game were were usually guessed, so the exact bullet fall would be a lottery, anyway.

I can say this. My 450 No2 shot spot on at 200 yards with the 200 yard leaf.

My 450/400 3 1/4 shot spot on with the 100, 200,and the 300 yard folding leaves.
And I mean SPOT ON.

I've never tried long range with my VC 450NE (100 yards no problem), but if I can hit a ram at 500 yards with my 45-110, why can't I do it with the 450NE?

I pop 500 yard steel all the time with my .470. I got the sight picture figured out by trial and error and it's no big deal once you get the correct sight picture for elevation.

I call it my stupid human double rifle trick. It has no useful purpose in the field but it's fun to do. Especially when the guy next to you at the range can't hit the 500 yard gong with a scoped rifle and has made a snide comment about those "short" range double rifles.

FYI on my rifle you hold the full front sight up into the rear sight, so that you are seeing the top flat of the front sight base even with the top edge of your rear sight. You then simply place the front bead onto the middle of your gong. The elevation works perfect, windage is the issue, it take more wind hold than you'd think by about twice.

On a calm day on a single 18" plate I can get about 50% of my bullets on target and the other are close enough to impress the audience of the unwashed masses. The secret trick to getting almost 100% hits is to slide the 4 plates together so your target is about 5 feet wide and conveniently don't call out which plate you were aiming for.

Holdover is the easy part of long range shooting..windage is the tough part, and a 470 etc. probably takes the windage out of the scenario..That is why the old sharps rifles had such a reputation such as the 2000 yard killing of a Cheyenne Chief at Adobe Walls Texas.

I have played at shooting rock chucks with a 404 Jefferys at long range and was surprised at the kills I made at 200 to 300 yards once I got the sight picture figured out on the range, again I made no allowance for wind, and it seemed to work pretty well albieght with my share of misses, but close misses!

Downside? a day of shooting rock chucks with a 404 is akin to a day of tackle practice with the Dallas Cowboys, you will come home Loopy.

I beleive I read somewhere that rifles brought to Africa were often required to have sighting to 1000yds so that in the event that their owners and guns were conscripted for battle they would be useful for volley fire.
Sounds plausible as most of these rifles with long range leaves or ladder sights have African connections and are from the late 19th to the early 20th century.

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
Holdover is the easy part of long range shooting..windage is the tough part, and a 470 etc. probably takes the windage out of the scenario..That is why the old sharps rifles had such a reputation such as the 2000 yard killing of a Cheyenne Chief at Adobe Walls Texas.

Agreed

Gravity is constant, wind is variable.

My 1909 Greener 450/400 3 1/4" has 200 and 300 yard leaves. They are on. As in kill an antelope at 300 yards on.

The cartridge is slight overkill for an antelope, but effective and fun for the hunter.

It was Billy Dixon who made the 1538 yard shot at Adobe Walls, Texas and the Indian was Comanche, not Cheyenne. Just an historical update.

My Reilly has only one fold up sight for 200 yards and as others have stated, mine is dead on. Seyfried has mentioned more than once in articles about the ball or bullet "falling directly beneath the front bead" at xxx yards when using leaf sights on various rifles. I'm inclined to believe there's more fact than fiction to the leaf sight debate. For me I doubt I would try it on game but where I hunt 100 yards is a long shot so it isn't likely anyway.

Don't think for a moment the wind won't wreak havoc on those big bullets at even 300 yards. It will.

quote:

Originally posted by 9.3 X 75R:
It was Billy Dixon who made the 1538 yard shot at Adobe Walls, Texas and the Indian was Comanche, not Cheyenne. Just an historical update.

quote:

by9.3x74R
My Reilly has only one fold up sight for 200 yards and as others have stated, mine is dead on. Seyfried has mentioned more than once in articles about the ball or bullet "falling directly beneath the front bead" at xxx yards when using leaf sights on various rifles. I'm inclined to believe there's more fact than fiction to the leaf sight debate. For me I doubt I would try it on game but where I hunt 100 yards is a long shot so it isn't likely anyway.

Don't think for a moment the wind won't wreak havoc on those big bullets at even 300 yards. It will.

I have to agree with the opinion that if used properly the flip-ups are dead on, on quality double rifles.

The excuse used most often for the opinion that the multiple flip-ups are simply for decoration is the opinion that regulation is done to make the barrels cross at a given distance. If that were true, which it is not, each flip-up sight would shoot wider as the bullet goes down range so the center line in the extra sights could not have been in line.

As others have stated their down range sights are dead on at the distance they were cut for, and that has been my finding as well.

As far as having to spend large amounts of ammo to cut in the sights for several down ranges zeros, that would take no more than cutting the standing sight. The center of a composite group doesn't change at any distance.

Once the center of group of both barrels' composite group is found for the standing sight of the regulated barrels, all that is needed is to cut to the drop at the distance. By using a large target with a vertical center line and simply holding on top of the target and marking the drop then cut the sight for that drop in each sight.

I have a Westley Richards 500-450 double with a standing sight cut for 25 mtrs and one flip-up cut for 150 mtrs and both are dead on at those ranges for both elevation and windage.

Mike,

From what I've seen, they didn't file the sights at all, they left that to the shooter.

I thought the leaves represented the various ranges at which the bullets cross, cross back, re-cross, and cross back again.

The two variables as I see it. The leaves are marked for distances, some very long distances, and the rifles have the ability to hit game at that distance. But, how many hunters, now or then, can shoot open sight leaves to 3-4-500 yards. Except for a couple of caribou in Alaska where I used a scope on my .450-400, my longest open sighted shots were both at mid-90 yards and all else was 60 yards or under.
Cal

In TR's African Game Trails there is an account of TR and Kermit shooting the "little US 30" At some animal at a very long range. After a few ranging shots they finally connect, then give shase on their ponies, I believe Kermit's steps into a hole and stumbles and TR races off to finish the animal in great fashion.

Found this at the up and coming Rock Island Auction... 4 folding leafs and a ladder sight

The long range leaves may be accurate, but my eyes sure aren't.

Dave

I am sure that some of these guns could be accurate out to quite a long distance and back when they were made, there were shooters who could use them on very large game out to quite a distance. All this is a moot point today because it is considered unethical to shoot at animals with iron sight at those extreme distances.

I'm also sure that some of these makers were just trying to impress their new clients with how accurate these guns might be, whether or not they could actually be shot at those ranges may have been just pipe dreams.

It was not a double rifle, but years ago I posted a photo of a MS rifle that had been requested from H&H by a member of the Egyptian Royal family. It had leaves out to 800 yards.

I think it comes down to how well you know your rifle and how many rounds you put through it. This one taken at just over 200 yards, verified after the shot with a laser. It has taken me some time build up my confidence with this gun but I feel I could stretch that distance out a fair bit given the right conditions.

Of the 450WM and 458 Lott I have used they will not shoot beyond 200yds and will shoot a decent group at 200 only if the bore is new.I would expect DR chamberings of the same caliber to be the same.I would think that reducing the chambering diameter will extend the range.So,long range leafs could be used but for the appropriate chambering,IMO.I would think a 375FL could be used at 300yds.

I would like to add that group size is extremely important when shooting at DG.

Give it up! Everyone knows double rifles are not accurate past 25 mtrs from the muzzles!

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Barrels are only new once.


Dutch

quote:

Originally posted by cal pappas:
The two variables as I see it. The leaves are marked for distances, some very long distances, and the rifles have the ability to hit game at that distance. But, how many hunters, now or then, can shoot open sight leaves to 3-4-500 yards. Except for a couple of caribou in Alaska where I used a scope on my .450-400, my longest open sighted shots were both at mid-90 yards and all else was 60 yards or under.
Cal

I agree that some of the multiples are a little optimistic to say the least! As stated above the rifles are capable of hitting targets at up to 500 yds but some of these rifles have extra flip-up LADDER SIGHTS as well for up to 1000 yds. As ridiculous as that seems I have a theory of what these sights were used for. In the days these rifles were used in old Africa's walking safaris the hunters were in more danger from the tribes in some areas than the game areas. These long range sights were used like mortars when groups of the locals were seen advancing on them, from a long distance. If they could kill a couple from very long range they were afraid to get closer. With a large group it would have been fairly to hit two or three with the mortar use getting their point across, and giving them time to put more distance between them and natives.

My reasoning for this is thought is all the doubles I have seen with this type sights were made back in the late 1800s or early 1900s. If you look at single barreled rifles of the time most had ladder sights designed for just this purpose both derived from military rifles. The long range sight not designed to shoo individual animals or people but to drop shots into large groups.

This opinion may be absolutely 100% wrong, and I have never seen this stated by anyone from the time but that is my opinion.

...................................................... or what say you?

I think Mac you are entirely right. If one looks at the Snider .577 and it's derivative the Martini Action Henri rifling Mk 2 in .577/.450 it had ladder flip up sights to 1800 yards. The reason for this was for combined group volleys at troops or cavalry in the late 1800s. I personally believe why the British battalion etc of just over 100 were able to fend off between 3-10,000 Zulus at Rourke s Drift in Jan 1879 was because of it's large bore, group volleys, and particularly the weight of the bullet allowing it to penetrate and kill two to four Zulus charging at a time. The firing distance started at 400 yds. Nevertheless, it was a accurate rifle for it's time. At 1200 yds with iron sights it grouped 20 rounds into 27" on average. For awhile it was a NRA 900 yd competition rifle. The barrel was however 33". So what does that have to do a double? Clearly the doubles we use were derived from these breech loading and earlier designs but it does show that the large calibers can be made accurate although clearly the doubles shorter barrel and crossing point is a factor for long distance. So I m looking forward to trying a .577 out to 300 yds with flip up sights. I know my Gibbs .505 can group 3 " at that distance.

I am glad that the ethics of hunting have improved. I have read and heard accounts of how some of the old hunts were conducted and it wasn't pretty. They would sometimes shoot at a heard and see if something dropped or they would do finishing shots as they got closer. The mind set was there are so many animal's it doesn't matter. I also think the gentleman who ordered extra leafs would expect them to be right on. Now the possibility exist that only one barrel would be to the sights. or more correctly stated the sights were regulated to one barrel. I seam to remember reading a add by Merkel when they were promoting the set trigger that the sights were only regulated to the barrel with the set trigger for long shots.
I do think that a double that is properly regulated will be capable of remarkable accuracy at ranges further than my eyes can see any more.
Ask 450#2 how far he hit a coyote with his rifle.
Bill

quote:

Originally posted by Bill Cooley:
Ask 450#2 how far he hit a coyote with his rifle.
Bill

278 yds and he hit the coyote with each barrel, two shots both hits! That ain't no accident folks!

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