I know all about the cost and labor involved in barrel regulating, but when will a gun maker make a no frills, plain, and basic big bore DR in an affordable, say $2-3,000 price range??

I'm sure that it could be done, and alot of us would buy one.

Why would they when they can sell as many as they can make at 15-20K. Manufac. cost and time, I doubt they will ever be in that range. You might want to check out the Kodiak 45-70 double, or you can find a nice Blaser double for around 7K from time to time. IMHO I'd save up for a nice gun you will love it more when it comes into your hands.

Ed

I would never expect the price of a big bore
double to be less than $4500 - $5000 at a minimum.

fivebigbores

Good pick up.

But in relation to the original question, I don't consider a Shotgun conversion to be a Big Bore Double Rifle.

That's my opinion only but a re sleeve of a shotgun will always be that IMHO.

How much do you all think the bottom line price on a 470NE hammerless ejector in well used, but good working condition go for??
Just a good solid shooting non-embelished hunting/shooting DR.

Wolfgar,

I'd say if you could find one, 8K but now a days the way the market is I'd say 12K

I bought a Willam Douglass a 2 years ago. You could find them from 10.5 to 12K, today you dont even see them for sale, and the 2 I've have seen sell in the past yearhave been at 14.5K and 15K. Buy one now you will not be sorry.

Ed

I would consider the Chapuis for twice that number a genuine bargain in today's market. The SIACE posted here somewhere are nice, but about six-grand to start.

Rich
DRSS
Knowledge not shared is knowledge lost...

i have a 54 cal kodiak double m/l that you could stoke up for all your dg hunting

and it would only cost you $500.00

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
I would consider the Chapuis for twice that number a genuine bargain in today's market. The SIACE posted here somewhere are nice, but about six-grand to start.

Rich
DRSS
Knowledge not shared is knowledge lost...

Rich

SIACE is $4500 to start, not $6k.

That's about as low as I think you'd want to go without pinging on quality.

If you are talking about an honest to God "HAND MADE" double rifle box

lock as the U.K. makers were putting out before WWII, in the most simple form,

straight back on the action, only name of maker for engraving, no cheek piece,

PLAIN wood, etc. from a one man shop like www.ttproctor.com in northern England

you are still talking about an extreme level of craftsmanship that very few people

world wide can carry out. Trevor told me his rifle, which has a scalloped backed

action, very nice wood, shadow line cheek piece, quarter rib, excellent sights,

considerable engraving, etc. starts at 20,000 pounds U.K. That's over $40,000 U.S.

dollars right now. It is 800 hours labor. Even if you could trim back every "extra"

I bet you'ed still have 600 hours labor. At $50 U.S. per hour it's still $30,000

U.S. dollars without raw materials. I stress this is absolutely done the way Harry

Leonard did it for all intents and purposes.

quote:

Originally posted by fivebigbores:
to much machine work. to many hand fitted parts. too much hand work required to get a good working rifle at that price level. I purchased a 50-140 double from jason simpkins of colorado for $3,200 paied for it in january 07 got it in early sep 07 it is a shotgun conversion with lined barrels . he will build me one next year, same round, for $4,500 on a merkel shotgun [hope he will still do it for that !!] and I know he is working a lot of the time for free

just my opinion

thanks frank

Notice the words highlighted in red above in your quote! I hope this is a typo, because that phrase "LINED BARRELS", if true is certainly not the way to convert a shotgun to a double rifle! That phrase means, the use of full length liners in the old shot barrels, and is the work of a plumber, not a rifle builder. I'd rather have the shotgun, because it would be worth more money!

NOW! If you mean Sleeved barrels, then we are talking a far different animal. This is turning the old shot barrels into a MONO-BLOCK, and sleeving in new rifle barrels, Threaded, and soldered in, with the laying of new ribs, and hand fitting new extractors,headspaceing and fitting to the action, regulating, and forming new sights, the carding, and re-finishing the barrel set, cutting new wood for the different shaped barrels, and ribs. If this method is done, PROPERLY, for the price you mentioned with you furnishing the shotgun, If it shoots right,then you have something.

I simply can't see this type conversion being done for $3200 us! I wouldn't do it for twice that price!

Hell a good Merkel shotgun will run you $3200 US, before you even start the conversion! Why not simply find a used Merkel, or Chapuis double rifle, $6K-$7K, and be done with it!

I am a custom gunmaker. I know a lot of other custom gunamkers. I know a fair number of people who have worked for commercial arms manufactuerers, ranging from small to large sized companies. I am an engineer. I have experience with design and manufacutre of precision things.

I have heard many, many people pose the question at the beginning of this thread. I have never heard a person who fit in any of the catagories listed in my first paragraph pose that question. They all know better.

Wolfgar-
if you do a search, you will find your question asked over and over and over and over. It was answered each time in the same way.

I also know a lot of people who buy guns in the $2-3k price range up through ten times +++ that much. I also know several orders of magnitudes more of numbers of shooters who claim they will spend $3k on a gun and whine and balk when they have to spend $750. I know a lot of gunmakers with the exact same life experiences.

Marc_Stokeld


Well Said.

I would add this - if someone came out with a DR for $3000, the next question would be - when are they going to build one for $1500 - 2000.

Interesting that no one seems to have commented on the SIACE for $4500 which is as close as you'd probably get in todays market.

quote:

Originally posted by Wolfgar:
I know all about the cost and labor involved in barrel regulating, but when will a gun maker make a no frills, plain, and basic big bore DR

A number have been doing that for years...

quote:

in an affordable, say $2-3,000 price range??

...but they have no motive to sell them at a substantial loss.

quote:

I'm sure that it could be done, and alot of us would buy one.

No, it can't, and you wouldn't want it if someone tried it. The purpose of the double rifle requires good regulation, great handling, and failsafe reliability. That means cheap will never be part of one that's worth having.
---------------------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

Check the Cabela's list,

There's a 9.3x72R over & under for $2999. Darn close the the arbitrary $2500 price.

Pete A.

Pete

I think you'd class a 9.3 as a medium bore
whereas he wants a big bore - and 9.3 x 72R
is a real oddball calibre.


400

Your comment about selling at a substantial loss
is one I often comment on.

Everyone seems to foret that the objective of the manyufacturers is not to sell them at the lowest possible price.

That is unless everyone on the forums does the same thing in their businesses - which I doubt.

There are lot's of cheap 9.3 O/Us. Cheap is the only criteria that recommends them.
-----------------------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

Not 2500 but there is a ped. kodiak conversion in a 450no2 for a bit over 4K will be your only chance for "real" double under 5K.

Ed

QUESTION : why do these guys always whine and cry for some low priced double rifle that will never be around.

can't they just do what many of us did ....go to the gun vault and take out a pile of those worthless mod 70 and all that other rubbish they've accumulated, peddle it off and get one really good double rifle ?

no, they hang on to that worthless trash and expect someone to make a double rifle to equal it - worthless.

seems kinda strange to me........

NOTE :THE PEDERSOLI CONVERSION BY JACK HUNTINGTON DOES HAVE A TOP TANG SAFETY WHICH BLOCKS THE SEARS.

SO IT CAN SAFELY BE CARRIED WITH BOTH HAMMERS COCKED , READY FOR INSTANT ACTION SAME AS A HAMMERLESS DOUBLE !

that is an affordable double rifle in a powerful dg caliber. for more details call jack - his number is listed in the classified ad. he's used it on american bison with good results.

If anyone ever comes up with a double rifle for $2500. I am sure it will be a $2500 rifle, you get about what you pay for in rifles like anything else...

I have to post this after a recent conversation that took place at &&&&&&&& in Rapids City, SD. We were on our return trip and had stopped to see what they had on the shelves..gentleman (A**hole)discussing $$ for a Cooper Rifle on display "why so dam much?" salesman's reply "quality costs" response "Quality? the machines do all the work, over paid people running machines and I gotta pay for it!"

At this point I lost control..Hey, what do you do for a living? his reply"I work for ........I build dashboards for pickup trucks" Cound not stop my self.."so, you are one of those who push buttons on a machine while getting grossly overpaid and I have to pay for the POOR quality when I buy a truck"

He replied " my union sets wages and how much I have to get out on my shift".

At this point I was overly vocal. My final words were, "You self-centered B***ard, you want maximum wages for your work but you only want to pay minimum wages for the next man's work" he said his union handled that too...I walked away, nothing to be gained from a discussion with a robot.

I would gladly pay 10K for a double rifle, one of my heart's desires, I just cannot afford it but I am happy for those who can and am pleased that there are those out there who have the skill to build them.

Profit is NOT a dirty word,
SFC E7 (retired)

If this clown is a union member, he's probably a Damokrat and has leftist leanings also.

quote:

Originally posted by 475Guy1:

If this clown is a union member, he's PROBABLY

a Damokrat and has leftist leanings also.

I made BOLD and CAPITALIZED 475's "probably" because
it's correct on his part that he did not just make the

blanket statement that union members will be "demokrat"

leftists. I often disagree with fellow union members because
of my hard line Republican and right wing opinions.

Tomo brings up a point that I discuss with clients regularly.

Most gun guys (myself included) begin as enthusiasts and as their interests grow, they get into a habit or mind set of “collecting†guns.

At some point in their assemblance of a collection, they usually come to appreciate and desire a level of quality that outweighs the former desire for quantity - simultaneously realizing that it’s been a long time since they have actually shot most of the guns in their collection.

For this person, it’s pretty easy to downsize while also upgrading. The good news is that they're usually sitting on a more sizable amount of seed money than they realize.

A good double rifle or shotgun isn’t that far out of reach if you are willing to part with several guns that you never really use, or are willing to trade several less expensive guns for what you want and will use.

BFJ

I've been in several unions and the thing I absolutely loathe the most is that you get on the KOMMIE mailing list from the main office and others. I just junk that crap. I was a Teamster and was in Loc 3 in the past so I know what I's be talking about.

Wasn't there a study that said the average American hunter won't spend more on his deer rifle than on a set of 4 tires for his truck, and won't spend more on a box of ammo than the cost of a pizza?

There was another study that said the average American hunter purchasing a 4 wheeler is willing to spend up to 10% of his annual income on one.

quote:

when will a gun maker make a no frills, plain, and basic big bore DR in an affordable, say $2-3,000 price range??

When hell freezes over?? Certainly NOT BEFORE that.

quote:

Originally posted by tomo577:
i have a 54 cal kodiak double m/l that you could stoke up for all your dg hunting

and it would only cost you $500.00

I have one of those too, but to the best of my knowledge, all the Pedersoli-made .54 Kodiaks have a 1/66" twist for round balls. Mine shoots the PRB quite well, but will not regulate with any conical bullet that this twist will stabilize. It will NOT stabilize any heavy projectile! But the .58 will!

quote:

Originally posted by Pete A.:
Check the Cabela's list,

There's a 9.3x72R over & under for $2999. Darn close the the arbitrary $2500 price.

Pete A.

Yes! Please don't confuse the 9.3X72R with the 9.3X74R! The former is an old J.P. Sauer BLACK POWDER cartridge used in drillings and some doubles. It at best fires a 190-grain bullet (yes, 190 grains!!) at around 1800 FPS. Ballistically, it is closer to a .38.55 than anything else-definitely NOT much use for anything except plinking!

quote:

Originally posted by new_guy:
Tomo brings up a point that I discuss with clients regularly.

Most gun guys (myself included) begin as enthusiasts and as their interests grow, they get into a habit or mind set of “collecting†guns.

At some point in their assemblance of a collection, they usually come to appreciate and desire a level of quality that outweighs the former desire for quantity - simultaneously realizing that it’s been a long time since they have actually shot most of the guns in their collection.

For this person, it’s pretty easy to downsize while also upgrading. The good news is that they're usually sitting on a more sizable amount of seed money than they realize.

A good double rifle or shotgun isn’t that far out of reach if you are willing to part with several guns that you never really use, or are willing to trade several less expensive guns for what you want and will use.

That is exactly what I did after my first safari (September 2006). I came home, sold all my Remingtons and everything else I thought I could live without and now own a Heym .416 Rigby, a Krieghoff .470 NE, and a Dakota .375 H&H. I have far fewer rifles but I have upgraded and can't wait to use the new ones in Zimbabwe next year.

quote:

Originally posted by 400 Nitro Express:

quote:

Originally posted by Wolfgar:
I know all about the cost and labor involved in barrel regulating, but when will a gun maker make a no frills, plain, and basic big bore DR.
when will a gun maker make a no frills, plain, and basic big bore DR in an affordable, say $2-3,000 price range

I'm sure that it could be done, and alot of us would buy one.

No, it can't, and you wouldn't want it if someone tried it. The purpose of the double rifle requires good regulation, great handling, and failsafe reliability. That means cheap will never be part of one that's worth having.

quote:

There are lot's of cheap 9.3 O/Us. Cheap is the only criteria that recommends them.

This question is posted daily on one or another web-sites that deal with hunting large dangerous game. 400's comments are right on target!

However, I could build you a double rifle that would regulate very well, and would work reliably, and even ballance properly, and still sell it for $2500 USD, if I discounted my labor, and machine time,and only charged for the componants that go into the rifle. The fit and finish would be ragged at best, and IMO, it would not be worth the price of the componants needed to build it! BUT! It would be a double rifle!

The caliber has nothing to do with it, as long as the cartridge is rimmed. However, you would not take it out in public, and you would never show it to anyone who had ever seen a real double rifle. The rifle built that way, though workable, would need to be cased in a box made from lumber, salvaged from an abandoned out house, because it would be a "WALL MART DOUBLE" of the first order, and look like a plumber put it together.

No, Mac, it would be spray painted in camo shades to hide everything else.