Hi,

Been looking around for a double now for awhile and have finally found something interesting. Hollis 500NE. As per the seller the barrels are marked “ Cordite 75-570max & 500ex”. Is it safe to fire normal factory ammo through it?

Secondly, are there any pros and cons of a Webley action with Greener crossbolt, double lugs and disc-set strikers

Thanks in advance !

That is not a dumb question at all.
The standard 500 NE load is 80 cordite.
There is a lighter version with 70 or 75 grains made for hot climates, but I don't know about those.
So is your rifle made for modern full NE loads?
I can't answer that.
What I do know is that full NE loads kick a lot, so I shoot 450 grain bullets in it and it regulates the same as the 570 ones do.

Cordite is a smokeless powder and given loads can be duplicated using IMR3031 which has a similar burn rate to cordite.
Based on the loadings given on your Hollis it is proofed for smokeless powder and able to shoot factory ammo which for double rifles should be within the same loading range to provide for regulation i.e. normal bullet weight and velocity.

Below is some information by Elmer Keith in loading for some of the nitro express cartridges. This old stuff produced by Elmer when there was not much information available for reloading the big British bores.

The question is his rifle. Plenty of info in the book, Shooting the Double Rifle on load data.
Duplicating cordite loads is easy. His question was, modern factory ammo.

quote:

Originally posted by dpcd:
That is not a dumb question at all.
The standard 500 NE load is 80 cordite.
There is a lighter version with 70 or 75 grains made for hot climates, but I don't know about those.
So is your rifle made for modern full NE loads?
I can't answer that.
What I do know is that full NE loads kick a lot, so I shoot 450 grain bullets in it and it regulates the same as the 570 ones do.

Thank you very much DPCD, the rifle isn’t mine yet. I want to purchase a double. I was looking for a more modern rifle such as a chapuis or Krieghoff in a 9.3x74 or 375 flanged but they aren’t that easy to come by here.

Now I really love old Elmer Keith but we have much better data than his these days regarding double rifle loads. I have been suspect
Of his data for a while now as I learned that his big old 577 nitro that he used with the above loads weighed 9.5 lbs! It was most assuredly a hammerless BPE rifle he was loading and shooting full nitro loads in!

I recommend making loads for your rifle with recently published data in Greame Wright’s books or the Woodleigh manual.

Ok, I will answer the original question; it is a No.
Load ammo using the book I mentioned, Shooting the British Double Rifle by Graeme Wright. Load it to 75 grains cordite equivalent.
But again, if you were wanting a 9.3, and get a 500; that is a world apart in what it does on both ends. Fun though.

Here's my take, owner until a few weeks ago of a Hollis 450-400 with 55 grain (tropical) configuration. I have no reason to believe that a tropical load gun is in any way weaker than the higher non-tropical action. I think the tropical rifles were just regulated with a lower load. It's reasonable to assume that Hornady did not produce loads that would be unsafe in an original rifle. My highest confidence would be if a know DR expert like JJ saw the rifle and declared it to be in working order. I also agree with DPCD that using Wright's loads is best way to load safely and to find load that tests best in groups at 50 yards. Bob

quote:

Originally posted by bobc:
Here's my take, owner until a few weeks ago of a Hollis 450-400 with 55 grain (tropical) configuration. I have no reason to believe that a tropical load gun is in any way weaker than the higher non-tropical action. I think the tropical rifles were just regulated with a lower load. It's reasonable to assume that Hornady did not produce loads that would be unsafe in an original rifle. My highest confidence would be if a know DR expert like JJ saw the rifle and declared it to be in working order. I also agree with DPCD that using Wright's loads is best way to load safely and to find load that tests best in groups at 50 yards. Bob

Fully agree with what you have said here. Modern factory loads for double rifles are loaded to match the original ballistics for the different nitro cartridges to ensure regulation. Regulation is not a given as each gun is its own entity but the ammo manufacturers are not so stupid to load up double rifle ammo for the old nitro cartridges to some randomly chosen ballistic level. Bolt action ammo is different where some original specifications were on the low side and could be increased safely to provide better ballistics e.g. 404 Jeffery. The Mauser M98 bolt rifle was used for the early nitro rimless nitro cartridges and today used for some of the highest intensity cartridges so there has never been any question re its suitability for cranking up some of the nitro cartridges to better ballistics.

I posted the Elmer Keith loading data for the British double cartridges to show that modern powders could be loaded in any of the double guns that had been proofed for cordite i.e. smokeless powder proofed.

As with any 'old' rifle or gun you need to be sure that it is suitably proofed and in good condition before using any ammunition in it.

I would start on the lower end of the loading data and work up slow watching your velocity with a chronograph as well as how the loads are coming into regulation. A few years ago I was loading for a Merkel 140 in 9.3x74R. I had chronographed the rifle with Hornady 285 grain factory loads which as well as I can recall were traveling at 2360 fps and regulated perfectly. When my reloads hit 2350 fps and regulation was obtained the load was a full 7 grains under what my reloading Manuel called for for that velocity.

quote:

Originally posted by dpcd:
Ok, I will answer the original question; it is a No.

Thank you! that is the answer I am looking for.

quote:

Originally posted by MD375:

quote:

Originally posted by dpcd:
Ok, I will answer the original question; it is a No.

Thank you! that is the answer I am looking for.

So dpcd went from answering your "original question" with a "So is your rifle made for modern full NE loads? I can't answer that." to a "Ok, I will answer the original question; it is a No."

I can't answer to a NO seems to be a bit messy.

Actually MD375 your original question was "Is it safe to fire normal factory ammo through it?"
Does any normal factory ammo have warnings on the packets, Not suitable for nitro (smokeless) proofed guns? I think not!!

Is it a 3" or 3 1/4" case?

I fired 3" Hornady through my 3 1/4" H&H Royal to see velocities, in this case 2080fps. Didn't shoot many.

Keep in mind you will likely encounter lower pressures with modern powders than cordite. It is a question of how the rifle regulates with those loads.

Sometimes the velocity that regulates best will be slightly higher than the original, if they ever measured velocity correctly, due to change in powder burning characteristics.

Also you may not get the proper pressure to shoot a load with the wall gripping but case not setting back. Had that where protruding primers were cured by an extra couple grains of powder with slower powders, in my case H4350 in my 500/450 3 1/4".