Well, it's sorta' "live"... maybe 6,7 or 8-hours later here (depending on where you might be in the US... or not)

I’m in the office in Germany this week, and thought you guys might like to see some behind-the-scenes photos.

Barrels.

Here you can see a set of barrels with the shoe-lump (the part with the big hole) and rib extension in their raw/just assembled form.



In the foreground is a close-up of the forend loop.



Full view of the barrels before machining.



The barrels are then fixed in a jig, and the bolts are torqued appropriately.



Indexed in the machine



Close the doors, and let the machining begin.



Minutes later, open the doors, and you can see that several things have happened:



1) Lugs have been machined both horizontally and vertically, as has the forend loop (one perfectly square to the other.)

2) Screw hole for the ejector stop has been machined and recessed.

3) The flats on the barrels have been machined at a perfect right-angle to the lumps, as have the sides of the forend loop.

4) The rib extension (for the Greener cross-bolt) has been machined perfectly square with the barrel flats, lumps, rib extension, etc…





The before on the left… and the after on the right.



Final hand-fitting is certainly important for all of the parts of a well-made rifle or shotgun, but there is no substitute in starting with parts that are literally machined to aero-space tolerances.

So where is my 577? Is it still there or shipped.

Sam

quote:

Originally posted by srose:
So where is my 577? Is it still there or shipped.

Sam

Hi, Sam.

I'm looking out for you too... in fact, I ran straight to the vault to put my grubby little hands on your 577.

It's still here, but complete and ready to ship...

Although this is the first time you've seen it, I think it was worth the extra time taken to make the new stock.

It turned our great, and is a nicer selection of wood for you too. It's made to the EXACT same dimensions as your 500, so you are deadly and good to go!





Here is the border engraving on the "PH" grade.


I think the border engraving makes the "PH" look more "finished" ... maybe we should just add it to all "PH" grades???

Awesome photos, thanks for posting !

Like that piece of wood on the 577.

Thanks Chris, That gun looks great and I can't wait to get my hands on it. Got to go shoot an elephant now!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Sam

quote:

...Got to go shoot an elephant now!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Sam

Call the travel agent!

Machined steel is a thing of beauty.

Thanks Chris...always great to see some pics from the shop floor.

Chris;

Wonderful photos of rifles in the shop. I assume that the Greener type rear extension is part of the quarter rib that is brazed to the top center of the two barrels. Is this correct and can you take a photo of a rifle where the craftsmen are brazing a quarter rib with extension to the barrels? I was hoping that the video of the Heym works on Youtube would show it but it does not.

Best Regards;
Transvaal, aka Steve

quote:

Originally posted by Transvaal:
Chris;

Wonderful photos of rifles in the shop. I assume that the Greener type rear extension is part of the quarter rib that is brazed to the top center of the two barrels. Is this correct and can you take a photo of a rifle where the craftsmen are brazing a quarter rib with extension to the barrels? I was hoping that the video of the Heym works on Youtube would show it but it does not.

Best Regards;
Transvaal, aka Steve

I don't have a photo of the actual brazing, but I can show the separate parts, etc...

As you can see in the photo below, the quarter rib and rib extension are actually two separate pieces. (The quarter rib is not attached in this photo.) The shoe-lump, rib extension and forend loop are all brazed in place. The top rib, bottom rib, front and rear sights are joined with soft solder.



In this drilling photo, you can see the individual parts before they are joined. This is combination of shoe-lump with mono-block.

Chris;

Thank you very much. Those photos were just what I was looking for, in order to understand the assembly of the extension and shoe lump.

Sincerely

Steve Howell

Thanks for starting this thread, very informative.

With all of the work done on the bottom side of the barrels, they are flipped over, indexed and three operations are made:



1) the top of the quarter rib and rib extension are milled flat.

2) the dovetail is cut in the quarter rib for the rear sight.

3) the prism cut is made on the sides of the rib for the red-dot mounts.

quote:

Originally posted by Transvaal:
Chris;

Thank you very much. Those photos were just what I was looking for, in order to understand the assembly of the extension and shoe lump.

Sincerely

Steve Howell

No problem. Here is a better picture of the rib extension in the foreground.

It's not on a double, but I thought you guys would appreciate this (Sorry about the reflection of light.)

Ok, very cool to see how a double has been put together.

Thank you!

Sam

That is a beautiful rifle and you now have a composed pair!

So you do not need the 450/400 anymore eh?

Nakihunter, Yep you are right, I might not need that 450-400 anymore. If this 577 shoots as good as my Heym 500 I may not need any of my other doubles. Elephants watch out!

Congrats Sam, that's a very nice double.

.577 too, way cool !

Hope I get to see it, some day, propped up in the gun rack in camp

Maybe I could pry it out of your grip long enough for a couple of rounds

Well done.

Paul.

Paul,

Glad to see you are active. Just heard Michael is coming to see you this fall. Maybe I should sneak over before he gets there and test out this 577. I'll let you shoot it all you want.
Have you shot anything with your 500 double yet?

Sam

I'm impressed. Nice to see what goes into the making of a fine double.
As to the photo of the drilling--a 4-bore would be nice!
Cal

Great stuff, Chris! Thanks for sharing!

quote:

I think the border engraving makes the "PH" look more "finished" ... maybe we should just add it to all "PH" grades???

Chris, I agree. Just the border engraving looks fantastic. Sometimes less is more.

Sam, great looking gun. Good luck on your elephant hunt.

Thanks Dave! Got that elephant tied down waiting for me.

quote:

Originally posted by srose:
Paul,

Glad to see you are active. Just heard Michael is coming to see you this fall. Maybe I should sneak over before he gets there and test out this 577. I'll let you shoot it all you want.
Have you shot anything with your 500 double yet?

Sam

G'day Sam.
Yes, Mike is on his way down again for another hunt.
I do hope you find your way to bring this new double Down Under for a serious work out on some tank-sized bulls.

My .500 still remains unblooded, but only for a few weeks yet !
Thus far only range and regulating work done but that will change very soon.
I'm looking forward to unleashing it !!
I have the 475gn's doing 2400fps with no signs of any pressure and very good regulation.
Should be quite adequate.

Yeah Paul, I need to get down under again soon to shoot some tanks. I hope I'll have my new 577 600gr non cons going 2400 fps out of my double. That should smoke those big bulls. Plan on shooting an elephant in the fall and maybe a buffalo.
Glad your gun likes those little 475 gr bullets. They do hammer bulls.

Sam

quote:

Originally posted by srose:
So where is my 577? Is it still there or shipped.

Sam

Sam-
I understand the impatience--

My Heym 375 Flanged NE order just went in-
And I can't stand the wait-

My 450 Heym Jaeger is such a pleasure-
in accuracy, feel and point-ability
-that-

It's lighter and even more nimble smaller sibling has me waiting in extreme expectation for its appearance

Chris;

Among double rifle enthusiast's there is often a discussion about whether double rifles should be built with convergence in the barrels, or built with barrels parallel. I looked at the photo of the close up of the Heym rib extension and shoe lump and it appears that the shoe lump is machined for the barrels to be set parallel by the Heym craftsmen before they are brazed to the shoe lump. Is this correct or are the barrels actually set on the lump with some convergence for the brazing?

Best Regards;
Steve Howell

quote:

I hope I'll have my new 577 600gr non cons going 2400 fps out of my double.

2,400 fps? Yikes!!!

Steve, There is no discussion about DR barrels being parallel; they CAN"T be made parallel; they must have some convergence. A DR with parallel barrels would shoot way apart. Recoil jump and flip will make the bullets shoot parallel on their way to the target. All DRs have converging barrels and some shoot bullets parallel to infinity and some shoot them with a crossing at some point. The discussion is whether or not that is right. My take is that with big bores it makes no difference as you are not going to shoot at long ranges anyway. With smaller bores, it might.

dcpd;

Your reply is of some interest, but it is not relevant to the question that I was attempting to pose to Chris. However, you would not be able to understand that from the poor way I worded the question.

I will reform my question better to the point I was seeking for Chris:

Chris;

It appears from the photo of the HEYM shoe lump that the two slots machined for the bottom of the breech ends of the barrels to fit into, then wire wrapped and then brazed, may be machined parallel. Are the slots machined parallel? The reason I am asking this question is that among double rifle makers (such as myself) there are at least two positions of thought on primary fitting of the barrels whether they are chopperlump, mono-bloc, dovetail lump, or shoe lump. Although most rifle makers lay the barrels out for fitting and assembly for convergence (I use about 1/2 degree toward centerline); however, I understand there are a few makers who fit and assemble the barrels parallel and "tweek" the barrels toward each other in the regulation of the barrels versus tweeking them apart as happens most often using the convergence method of barrel assembly.

I regret the confusion I may have inspired due to my earlier desire to keep my question brief. However, if HEYM uses the parallel assembly and fitting of barrels, it is of extreme interest to me and others of a technical mind and background. It seems the shoe lump brazing method would be ideal for fitting and assembling barrels parallel.

Kindest Regards;
Steve Howell

I think the breech end should be parallel and square to the breech. If not your brass isn't going to last but a couple of shots. The muzzle ends can be pulled in to get it to regulate without having to move them much. A bent barrel can shoot well because most barrels are bent anyway.

Good question. The chambers are square to the breech face.

hell Cal, all 4 bores are nice. There are so few of them around. Especially doubles.

quote:

Originally posted by Transvaal:
Chris;

Among double rifle enthusiast's there is often a discussion about whether double rifles should be built with convergence in the barrels, or built with barrels parallel.

quote:

Originally posted by dpcd:
Steve, There is no discussion about DR barrels being parallel; they CAN"T be made parallel; they must have some convergence. A DR with parallel barrels would shoot way apart. Recoil jump and flip will make the bullets shoot parallel on their way to the target. All DRs have converging barrels and some shoot bullets parallel to infinity and some shoot them with a crossing at some point. The discussion is whether or not that is right. My take is that with big bores it makes no difference as you are not going to shoot at long ranges anyway. With smaller bores, it might.

Transvaal, dpsd is correct that all double rifle have converging barrels, or they will not regulate. However, the discussion about barrels being regulated to shoot parallel, or crossing at some point, is a non issue! The barrels are either regulated properly or they are not.Heyms are regulated properly! It may be acceptable do some folks if a rifle crosses at some point, but if it does it was not regulated properly regardless of bore size, or the owner has worked an improper load. The later is the case most often.

This is a subject that I have seen discussed by many people who have been shooting and hunting with double rifles for many years. They purposely try to work up loads the will print in the same ragged hole at the range engraved on the standing rear sight, and when they get a load to do that they think that is a proper regulating load.

This is wrong whether they like that way or not, and it may be fine for someone who will only shoot at that range, shorter, or slightly farther. If all the bullets are hitting the same ragged hole at any range the rifle is crossing at that range and will shoot steadily farther crossed as it goes dawn range. That same rifle was regulated to shoot parallel and it’s owner has worked up a load that crosses, thinking he has a proper load, and he doesn’t.

Regardless of bore size a composite group of both barrels should be slightly egg shaped along the horizontal line at the distance engraved on the rear standing sight, with the aiming point half way between the CENTERS of each barrel’s individual group, in plain English shooting parallel!

..................................................................... .

MacD;

I appreciate your reply. By the way I lived in the Republic of Texas for a number of years and it is one of my favorite places.

The bottom line of what I am trying to extract is do gunmakers who build double rifles using a "shoe lump" such as HEYM and Verney-Carron machine the grooves of the shoe lump for the barrels to fit into parallel to each other and perpendicular to the standing breech face. Or do they machine the grooves with slight angle toward the center line of the lumps (slight convergence? It appears from the videos of Verney-Carron and HEYM workshop that I have viewed that there is no convergence machined into the shoe lump base. Therefore the needed convergence must be placed into the barrels during the brazing of the forend loop and the center barrel support. Then the regulator can move the barrel apart or more together during the regulation--just as we do with mono-block applications

A convergence angle of about 1/2 if one degree is what I used in building a double rifle using a mono-bloc and machining that angle is not difficult. It will not be difficult for me to machine a similar angle into a shoe lump as I have both vertical and horizontal milling machines in my shop. The following link to Nitro Express will lead you to some photos of a 20 bore DR I built using a mono-block with 1/2 degree convergence of barrels

http://forums.nitroexpress.com...=0&page=0#Post225579

It is well known that UK gunmakers who use chopper lump barrels machine the lumps for convergence. However, I do not speak French and cannot ring up continental gunmakers and talk to them about the shoe lump groove convergence/no convergence as I have talked to UK gunmakers. To have a forum member (new_guy) visiting HEYM workshops was a most excellent and unexpected opportunity for me to ask him the question to be put to the workshop craftsmen of HEYM.

I have not before built a DR using shoelump barrel construction and I am now making the shoe lump for a .30-40 Krag DR I am building on a 20 gauge A&D action--- but have not machined its grooves. Both I and"Birdhunter" (a DR craftman of great experience) of this and other forums believe that the parallel construction will be the easiest and less problematic; but experience from a craftsman who has actually constructed barrels via this method will be helpful.

Are you such a craftsman who can share his experience in building shoe lump barrels. I would appreciate your tips if you are.

Best Regards;
Steve

quote:

Originally posted by Transvaal:
MacD;

I appreciate your reply. By the way I lived in the Republic of Texas for a number of years and it is one of my favorite places.

The bottom line of what I am trying to extract is do gunmakers who build double rifles using a "shoe lump" such as HEYM and Verney-Carron machine the grooves of the shoe lump for the barrels to fit into parallel to each other and perpendicular to the standing breech face. Or do they machine the grooves with slight angle toward the center line of the lumps (slight convergence? It appears from the videos of Verney-Carron and HEYM workshop that I have viewed that there is no convergence machined into the shoe lump base. Therefore the needed convergence must be placed into the barrels during the brazing of the forend loop and the center barrel support. Then the regulator can move the barrel apart or more together during the regulation--just as we do with mono-block applications

In every double quality rifle I know of the barrel butts are parallel and perpendicular to the breech face. The convergence begins at the hanger hook under the barrels, and is pressed together till it comes to the muzzle wedge. The barrel’s length would be tweeked (warped)to achieve proper regulation in any case, and making the cartridge heads out of being perpendicular to the bolt face may be OK for shooting factory ammo, but not a good idea for re-loading the brass over time. Your one half of one percent may not be enough to do damage to the brass but it isn’t necessary to get workable convergence without any convergense in the chamber end of the barrels.

quote:

A convergence angle of about 1/2 if one degree is what I used in building a double rifle using a mono-bloc and machining that angle is not difficult. It will not be difficult for me to machine a similar angle into a shoe lump as I have both vertical and horizontal milling machines in my shop. The following link to Nitro Express will lead you to some photos of a 20 bore DR I built using a mono-block with 1/2 degree convergence of barrels

http://forums.nitroexpress.com...=0&page=0#Post225579

It is well known that UK gunmakers who use chopper lump barrels machine the lumps for convergence. However, I do not speak French and cannot ring up continental gunmakers and talk to them about the shoe lump groove convergence/no convergence as I have talked to UK gunmakers. To have a forum member (new_guy) visiting HEYM workshops was a most excellent and unexpected opportunity for me to ask him the question to be put to the workshop craftsmen of HEYM.

Steve, I’ve heard that about convergence being cut into the lumps of chopperlump barrels, usually in gun magazines, but I have never encountered it in any books written in the DAY about the fitting of barrels on double rifles. Personally nI never believed it! That fact however, doesn’t make it untrue.

quote:

I have not before built a DR using shoelump barrel construction and I am now making the shoe lump for a .30-40 Krag DR I am building on a 20 gauge A&D action--- but have not machined its grooves. Both I and"Birdhunter" (a DR craftman of great experience) of this and other forums believe that the parallel construction will be the easiest and less problematic; but experience from a craftsman who has actually constructed barrels via this method will be helpful.

Are you such a craftsman who can share his experience in building shoe lump barrels. I would appreciate your tips if you are.

Best Regards;
Steve

Steve, I’ve only built a couple of doubles by cutting off the barrels of a couple of Browning BSS 20 ga shotguns and barreling them with threaded in rifle barrels. I regulated with the for-end hanger as a mid wedge, and a wedge at the muzzle end, so I am not someone who could advise a real machinist. However I do know Chris Sells personally, and some of the factory people at Heym, and I’m certain they start their regulation convergence at the for-end hanger as well and the saddles on the shoe-lumps for the barrels are parallel. Most of the improvements in the HEYM doubles are the direct ideas from Chris Sells, who is the USA importer of HEYM rifles. He is the one person who can get the information you are seeking. He is a top drawer guy, and anything he tells you can take to the bank.

By the way your rifle looks great, and I envy you your shop! I would die happy in a shop like that one!

………………………………………………………………,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

MacD;

Thanks for your kind thoughts.

Looks like we have highjacked this thread but it is for a good cause and hopefully helpful to our forum colleagues.

Page 104 of the book "DAVID McKAY BROWN" by Donald Dallas will provide you with current confirmation (book published 2011) that chopper lump barrels are machined for convergence.

".....chopper lump......of the side by side barrels have to be machined on both inner surfaces at the breech end to provide both the correct chamber centres and precise angle to the bore in order to arrive at the necessary convergence at the muzzles...."

To my mind the small angles that are machined for rifles and shotgun on chopper lump barrels (and for rifles is likely less angle) are so insignificant that we never notice them in the rim depth for double shotguns and double rifles. This would hold true for the angles machined into the mono-bloc as well.

Also to my mind it is likely that the machining of the chopper lump barrels is more important for configuring the barrels to assure that the chamber is bore center to the bore. A gunmaker can form or bend the barrels to suit for regulating, but it would be near impossible to sort out a concentric chamber.

Regards;
Steve

I was in the factory in the last week too.

I work in the moment at an new article about an 100 year Heym shootgun, an masterpeace, from an former german (part) king.

The factory is now Close to the summer-Holidays, but they work there still accurate and professional.

I had make some photos, witch I will post now.

Best wishes.

B.-Hunter

Some different stocks, mostley for the Heym classic stocks (SR 21 and SR 30).