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in thie last sports afield craig bottington speaks of having a 600 doubling on him on an ele hunt. evidently knocked him for a loop. i've had 470's double on me, but i somehow can't or don't want to imagine what it would feel like to have a 600 double. imagine 2000 grs of bullet about 240#'s of recoil. No way no how, i think i'd feel like brett favre does this morning | ||
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i remember john Taylor writing about his 600 doubling on him in African Rifles and Cartridges he said it knocked him to the ground *We Band of 45-70er's* "Far better it is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs even though checkered by failure, than to rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy nor suffer much because they live in the gray twilight that knows neither victory nor defeat." -Theodore Roosevelt- | |||
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Uh, yes, sure did! It was Bill Jones' .600. It is fairly common for inexperienced two-trigger double gun shooters to hit the rear trigger during recoil. Ouch! If that happens repeatedly, the only cure is to shoot the rear trigger first. This is not the "proper" way to shoot a double; just like a shotgun, the fastest and most natural movement is to shoot the front trigger, then make a slight adjustment to the rear trigger. I started shooting a two-trigger side-by-side shotgun when I was 16, and until that day in April I have never had a "physical double," meaning that I inadvertantly hit the rear trigger during recoil from the first barrel. So I tend to believe this was a "mechanical double," meaning a malfunction. However, I have no intention of spending a lot of time figuring out whether I did it or "it" did it!!!!!!!!!!!! It knocked the shit out of me. The good news is I was doing a backup hip shot at an elephant when it happened, so I lots of adrenalin going, otherwise I might really have been hurt. As it was, the opening lever split my left hand (I'm left-handed), my left thumb went into my cheek, leaving a welt like I'd just taken one from Muhammed Ali, and nine months later I'm still not sure my shoulder will ever be the same. I'm being very careful with recoil these days, and I no longer have any desire to shoot anything above a .500 NE. Cheers, C | |||
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The same thing happened to me....I squeezed the front trigger first and accidentally hit the second trigger. I won't make that mistake again!!! That is the same except 2 big differences: 1 it was a 9.3 x 74R Chapuis NOT A 600NE 2 I was shooting the gun from the bench, sighting it in with a scope at 50 yards, not at an ele. I am sure the recoil from a 600 doubling is much worse, I don't want to imagine how much worse. It was bad enough getting a scope to the face and having my friend laugh his ass of at me as blood trickled down my forehead and I tried to figure out what just happened. OH YEAH, I also broke a pair of nice sunglasses to add insult to injury.  NRA Life DRSS Searcy 470 NE The poster formerly known as Uglystick | |||
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craig - out of curiosity - did you hit the ele with 1 shot or 2 | |||
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byf42, you have a good memory regarding Taylor. It was an 18 lb .600. What he actually said was, the discharge of one barrel jarred the other barrel off simultaneously (Taylor, African Rifles And Cartridges, at p. 318). This is not exactly the same thing as accidentally pulling both triggers. Btw, I have an old, high grade 12 ga SxS shotgun with the rear trigger on the left, which makes it real hard to accidentally hit, being right handed. But, it's capable of doubling no matter which trigger first. The cause is mechanical issues. Most double gun rear triggers are on the left, aren't they? My Searcy's that way. If I get a good firm hold with my hand well back on the grip not much of my trigger finger protrudes off the front trigger. If it did, I could understand getting contact with the rear trigger. I also keep my hand as far back on the grip as possible to protect against the trigger guard, and therefore it's almost impossible for me to get an accidental double - if the gun's working right. So, I'm guessing some amount of double discharges are mechanical caused by recoil. In Taylor's case, he implied that both bullets hit the elephant in question, so they would really have to go off super fast together. That just sounds mechanical IMO. | |||
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Gentlemen, it doesn't take Craig long to look at a hot horse shoe! I'd say he'd put it right down in short order! I'm the same Craig I learn fast to leave it alone when something is bigger than me! ................. ..........  ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith  | |||
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I'll bet in Craig's case he was shooting a double with the triggers set up for a right hand shooter. Try dry firing your double left handed if triggers are set for a right hander. Doubling is easy to do. I'm sold on back trigger first! | |||
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I believe that "double" was somewhat captured for posterity on a certain issue of Tracks or Africa was it not? I doubled a 470 at the range once...thought I had a hot load until both empties shot over my right shoulder! Craig....didn't leave a mark anywhere near what that moose antler did though, eh? Gary DRSS NRA Lifer SCI DSC | |||
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I don't know what it is like to double a .600 NE, but I would think it felt something like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fSycmR80kOA I think I would end up with dame bramage if that happened to me! 577NitroExpress Double Rifle Shooters Society Francotte .470 Nitro Express  If stupidity hurt, a lot of people would be walking around screaming... | |||
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Butchloc, good question! The right barrel flattened the ele, but the left barrel went into outer space! (I think this is common.) The incident was on Tracks, but because of time constraints I don't think they made any comment. It was nearly dark, and in slow-mo it's pretty cool: The flame from the right barrel is still there when the left barrel lights up. For me, not so cool. I was propelled backwards, and might have gone down if I hadn't run straight into our Zim cameraman. The rifle is set up for right-handed use, front trigger on the right, rear trigger on the left--but I really don't know if I did it, or if it malfunctioned. Probably a tossup--and I have no interest in experimenting further! | |||
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Yes, you are correct - the 2nd barrel does send it's bullet over the target or aiming point if you double a DR. I doubled my 465 a few weeks ago in front of a Buffalo. | |||
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As a newby to DRs, I was affraid to let anyone know I doubled my new Sabatti 45-70. It did feel a little rough as the loads were fullup 405 grainers. I have now learned my lesson and will only shoot left barrel first. Thanks guys for being so honest, and making me feel a little better about the whole thing. I really felt stupid. TC Pro Deo et Pro Patria | |||
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TC It's a bit like stupid questions - the only stupid question is the one not asked. No need to feel stupid, Shit happens and is may happen again. I haven't doubled one of my DR's for a few years, but it happens and re the above post, after 10 - 12 good shots already, for some reason I doubled it in front of a Buffalo. | |||
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craig - reason i asked is that i was attempting a rear spine shot on a wounded ele with a 470 that doubled. the first shot hit but the 2nd took off somewhere into the atmosphere. the double happens so fast it would seem like the 2 shots would be onto of each other, but evidently not | |||
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Shack- yeah, John "Pondoro" Taylor is my favorite of the old time African hunters/writers. I think the controversy regarding him is a lot of made up lies, misunderstandings, etc. I have three of his books, along with the book written about him by PHC. To have seen the Africa that Taylor did would have been extraordinary. Anyway, the rifle he "doubled" was a single trigger Jeffery double, right? Never doubled a rifle, but then again, havent shot that many double rifles, yetyet! *We Band of 45-70er's* "Far better it is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs even though checkered by failure, than to rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy nor suffer much because they live in the gray twilight that knows neither victory nor defeat." -Theodore Roosevelt- | |||
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byf42, Taylor did have a Jeffery .600 but it wasn't the one that doubled. He didn't remember the make of that which did. That one he said was his first .600 and that the person he bought it from warned him to expect it. He also said it was a cheap second-hand. No mention how many triggers but I imagine it's a safe assumption it was two. That's enough for me to guess this sounded mechanical. As far as the African books are concerned my favorite three are this particular Taylor work, Bell's main work and Capstick's first book. | |||
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I've found that the number one thing that will cause a shooter induced double fire is a limp grip on the forend and trying to "pinch" hold the forend grip with your weak hand especially with a splinter forend. You need to grip the forend and on a splinter you need to wrap your fingers around the barrels do NOT try to hold the splinter by pinching it with your fingers. WRONG...  RIGHT...  | |||
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I dont own a double but aspire (dream ) to someday. I have had my 12 gauge double on me. What is the comparison. Sandy | |||
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That would depend on the rifle cartridge and load. Brett DRSS Life Member SCI Life Member NRA Life Member WSF Rhyme of the Sheep Hunter May fordings never be too deep, And alders not too thick; May rock slides never be too steep And ridges not too slick. And may your bullets shoot as swell As Fred Bear's arrow's flew; And may your nose work just as well As Jack O'Connor's too. May winds be never at your tail When stalking down the steep; May bears be never on your trail When packing out your sheep. May the hundred pounds upon you Not make you break or trip; And may the plane in which you flew Await you at the strip. -Seth Peterson | |||
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About 15 years ago I was at the bench, regulating a double 12 gauge rifle that I was building. The loads were Lightfield 1 1/4 ounce Hy-Bred sabots. the gun doubled on me and I'm here to tell you that, off the bench, that's all the recoil that I care to absorb at one shot. It turned out to be a bent sear, due to my glass-bedding job, which I immediately corrected. No problems since over 100's of shots. | |||
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Gee Brett, Do you think there's a difference in recoil between them?  NRA Life ASSRA Life DRSS Today's Quote: Give a man a fish and he eats for a day. Give a man a welfare check, a free cell phone with free monthly minutes, food stamps, section 8 housing, a forty ounce malt liquor, a crack pipe and some Air Jordan's and he votes Democrat for a lifetime. | |||
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surestrike, is that a Searcy? The forearm looks like my .400. I'm going to be careful to hold on to those barrels tight when I shoot it. I can see that being a problem. Btw, for those who don't follow gunbroker, here's a Searcy of interest - http://www.gunbroker.com/Aucti....aspx?Item=155581045. That's one I would also hold unto firmly. Doubling it wouldn't be a whole lot of fun. Bwanawannabee, I've also doubled a 12 ga. I haven't doubled a DB rifle but you can probably assume it's apples and oranges, although the shotgun was bad enough. Perhaps someone can do the math on this. Take a 12 ga with standard bird loads, 1 1/8 oz lead shot x 2 barrels at 1250 fps out of a standard shotgun weight, 7 1/2 lb. Then make the comparison to a 9 1/2 lb double rifle. The 450/.400 with 400 gr at 2150 fps muzzle and/or the .450 NE with a 480 gr at 2150. I don't have a calculator handy with enough digits to do the ounces to grains. I suspect the shotgun wad has a softening effect as will the compression of the shot being fired. But, there are different burn rates, and I guess pressure curves. And drastically different chamber pressures. Shotguns are around 8K to 10K. Maybe someone can take it from there. It's really kind of an interesting question. | |||
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Brain Fade 470 NE | |||
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I doubled my .470 twice. Its a slap in the face you don't want. After reflection the second time around I decided it might be due to loose gloves. I bought some tight fitting padded motorcycle gloves with the fingers cut off. I also now always pull the rear trigger first. When the buffalo are gone we will hunt mice, for we are hunters, and we want our freedom---Sitting Bull .470 Chapuis double; 9.3x74R Mathelon triple; 30-06 Winchester O/U | |||
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I do not own a double rifle nor have I ever shot one. However I bought a Weatheby Orion O/U 12 gauge back in the late 80's. It doubled on me more than once. This gun was sent back to Weatherby no less than three times. They were never able to correct the problem. The first time it doubled I was shooting live pigeon loads and it was certainly a suprise. That Weatherby is a piece of junk. | |||
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Shack, Yes sir that is a Searcy. It is a PH grade in .470. | |||
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It's one reason to pull the rear trigger first. This is sort of a pseudo-doubling since there is probably a greater time delay than mechanical doubling. Not quite as bad. ------------------------------- Will Stewart / Once you've been amongst them, there is no such thing as too much gun. --------------------------------------- and, God Bless John Wayne. NRA Benefactor Member, GOA, N.A.G.R. _________________________ "Elephant and Elephant Guns" $99 shipped “Hunting Africa's Dangerous Game" $20 shipped. red.dirt.elephant@gmail.com _________________________ Hoping to wind up where elephant hunters go. | |||
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OUCH!  JW | |||
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Maybe....Triggers set too light might be another issue...Recoil doubling? JW | |||
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