1- Webley PHV-1: "t" rib extention and "screw grip" third bite/fastener

2- Webley A&WC: "clipped spade" rib extention and "screw grip" third bite/fastener

3- Westley Richards "dolls head" third bite/fastener

4-??? Any other comparible designs

Is one better at fighting the forces that work to

make a rifle get loose on it's face or it's hook?

Of so, what makes that one superior?

Jack
From what I have heard and been told the 2 Webley actions are the best in the double rifle world. H&H or Westley Richards do not even come close IMHO.

My personal next favorite is the "Jeffery" double rifle action, which is also seen on other doubles including the Hollis guns that Rusty and 400 Nitro have as well as my Edwinson Green & Sons.

Don't forget the Greener cross bolt, which doesn't do much unless the action is actually coming apart. The doll's head doesn't do much either unless the action is pulling apart.

quote:

Originally posted by 500grains:
Don't forget the Greener cross bolt, which doesn't do much unless the action is actually coming apart. The doll's head doesn't do much either unless the action is pulling apart.

I agree with Dan on this one, only I include all third fasteners, and bottom fasteners alike! None of them do any good unless the action is trying to pull apart!

Let me say right off, a full 90% of "OFF FACE" condition has nothing to do with pressure, or the third fastenters at all, but is a product of poor care of the mateing surfaces of the hook, and hinge pin, and sides of the underlugs! Wear in these critical areas are the Grimlen you need to kill, to avoid OFF FACE condition.

I've heard more than one well verced person claim only one third fastener is the only one that does anything. They all have an effect on the soundness of the breaktop double, or single shot! They just do in in different ways.

If the only third fastener that has only one way of working is plain "DOLL'S HEAD"! and is the only one by it's self that contributes anything. The doll's head resists the barrels moveing forward off the face when one or the other barrel is fired. If one adds the bite in the nose of the doll's head, then there is a compound engagement. The "HEAD" of the doll's head resists forward movement, and the bite in the nose is barred by the extention tip of the top lever, and resists upward movement. If that bite is angled and is ingaged by a "SCREW GRIP" extention of the top lever, then it is tighter yet. For the folks that think the screw grip is the only real third fastener, that is worth haveing, are partly right, but not fully so, IMO!

Most folks who dwell on nothing but Britt double rifle systems, in most cases never bother to examine the way a "GREENER CROSS BOLT", and other cross bolt systems,and side cliped fences, to see exactly how they work. Most think the bolt simply moves from one side to the other through a hole in the rib extention,on a horizonal route, and as long as it fits properly, it is just a safety in case something else lets go.

That is not true, and the Greener cross bolt works about the same way a screw grip does. If you look very closely at the GCB, you will see it does not travel streight from side to side, but travels in a slightly upward angle, and if you remove the cross bolt, and measure it you will see that it is not the same diameter for its full length, but is slightly tapered, and as it travels through the hole in the rib extention it gets larger, and pulls the extention down, the same way a screw grip does, but pulls the extention back as well, something the screw grip does not do. What a surprise! The disadvantage it has in respect to most screw grip fasteners is, it is not usually in conjunction with a doll's head, and so has a much smaller surface to avoid forward movement, but not by much.

The least effective of all "so-called" HIDDEN third fasteners, is the hidden rib extention that is only blocked from upward movement, by a block over it,activated by the top lever, and the only thing for blocking forward movement is the hook, and hinge pin. This last one is very common in BEST GRADE Britt rifles, of prestegeous names, and is almost useless.

The most solid if properly made, and fitted, is the JONES UNDER LEVER, and even better if fitted with a doll's head as well. The hook, and hinge pin, along with the DOLL'S HEAD, restrict the forward movement, the sides of the under lugs restrict side to side movement, and the camming effect of the JONES UNDER LEVER pulls the barrel set down hard against the watertable, and into the doll's head recess. However most people don't like the JUL, because it is slow to opperate, but it is as stromg as a Mauser bolt action, and works almost the same way.

IMO, opinion, none of them are worth spit, unless fitted very well. In most cases when new, all of them are fairly tight, but if the owner fails to care for those mateing surfaces, all of them will come off face, no matter the low pressures!

What he said...!

Once again, very well done Mac. I agree completely, just please try to tone it down a bit about the virtues of the Jones UL as that is about the only 'reasonable' segment of the DR market left.

Bob

quote:

Originally posted by Omnivorous_Bob:
What he said...!

just please try to tone it down a bit about the virtues of the Jones UL as that is about the only 'reasonable' segment of the DR market left.

Bob

I know what you mean! I often let my alligator mouth over load my humming bird butt.

I discovered the vertues of the 450/400 3" double a few years ago, when you couldn't hardly give them away, after spouting off about how good they were for a dozen yrs, they are no longer sleepers, and good one are hard to come by, even at the premium prices they get for them today! I have a couple of jones lever doubles, and I love the old war horses!

MacD37,

Thanks your your detail filled response. I "eat up" such data!

mac d 37 well done - did you know there was a jones style underlever that functioned as a self closer ?

you opened the lever as usual to drop the bbls for loading.

but when you raised the bbls ( sharply) the underlever would snap back into the lock position. you didn't have to raise the bbls then turn the lever. this greatly facilitated a rapid reload.

sorry but as to my old timers disease i can't remember the makes of rifles i had with this feature - but i had two.

quote:

Originally posted by ftondrus:
mac d 37 well done - did you know there was a jones style underlever that functioned as a self closer ?

ftondrus ,
I am aware of it today, but wasn't till a few days ago, when someone posted a pictures of the action on one. I'd like to handle one of them to see exactly how this is accomplished, what draw-backs it has, if any. Sounds good on the surface!

quote:

Originally posted by ftondrus:
mac d 37 well done - did you know there was a jones style underlever that functioned as a self closer ?

you opened the lever as usual to drop the bbls for loading.

but when you raised the bbls ( sharply) the underlever would snap back into the lock position. you didn't have to raise the bbls then turn the lever. this greatly facilitated a rapid reload.

sorry but as to my old timers disease i can't remember the makes of rifles i had with this feature - but i had two.

These aren't particularly uncommon.

Some are aren't snap actions at all, they're just particularly well-timed standard Jones Screw-grips that return the lever to center when closed firmly. I recently handled a friend's Rigby hammer .450 that would do this. With the standard Jones Screw-grips, this is just the sign of a best gun.

However, a few makers built the Jones Screw-grip as a true snap action by fitting a return spring to the underlever. These were built in both hammer and hammerless form. Purdey in particular built large bore hammerless nitro express double rifles with snap action Jones Screw-grips until quite late in the game. You need to watch your knuckles with these, until you get used to them.
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"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:

Let me say right off, a full 90% of "OFF FACE" condition has nothing to do with pressure, or the third fastenters at all,

No. While it's true that improper lubrication is the most significant factor, excessive pressure is far, far ahead of whatever is in third place, and it's hard on the heels of improper lubrication.

quote:

If the only third fastener that has only one way of working is plain "DOLL'S HEAD"! and is the only one by it's self that contributes anything.

Not true. A plain doll's head or other type of rib extension without some type of mechanical fastener to engage it is not a third fastener. It is simply a rib extension, with no third fastener function or capability of any kind.

When fired, drop down barrel actions tend to "flex" off the face, rotating open on the hinge slightly. Rib extensions (doll's heads, straight exntensions, etc.), do nothing to prevent this because they can't. Rib extensions and clipped fences serve only to prevent lateral play and keep the barrels square to the face, nothing more. The underbolts, sometimes with third top fasteners as an adjunct, prevent the barrels from rotating open on the hinge.

quote:

The doll's head resists the barrels moveing forward off the face when
one or the other barrel is fired.

This simply isn't true. Movement of the barrels FORWARD from the face is limited by the hook and hinge pin ONLY. Rib extensions and third fasteners have nothing to do with it. By the time wear becomes so extreme that the doll's head has any limiting effect on forward movement of the barrels, the weapon is so severely off face that it should not be fired.

quote:

Most folks who dwell on nothing but Britt double rifle systems, in most cases never bother to examine the way a "GREENER CROSS BOLT", and other cross bolt systems,and side cliped fences, to see exactly how they work.

.

Anyone who dwells on "nothing but Britt double rifle systems" will understand the Greener cross bolt perfectly. W. W. Greener was and is a British gunmaker, and a particularly prolific gun inventor. The Greener crossbolt is a uniquely British invention. No one used the Greener cross-bolt as prolifically as the British did.!

quote:

That is not true, and the Greener cross bolt works about the same way a screw grip does.

No, it doesn't because it can't.

quote:

The least effective of all "so-called" HIDDEN third fasteners, is the hidden rib extention that is only blocked from upward movement, by a block over it,activated by the top lever, and the only thing for blocking forward movement is the hook, and hinge pin. This last one is very common in BEST GRADE Britt rifles, of prestegeous names, and is almost useless.

Yep, just like a Greener cross-bolt. We agree here.

quote:

The most solid if properly made, and fitted, is the JONES UNDER LEVER, and even better if fitted with a doll's head as well. The hook, and hinge pin, along with the DOLL'S HEAD, restrict the forward movement, the sides of the under lugs restrict side to side movement, and the camming effect of the JONES UNDER LEVER pulls the barrel set down hard against the watertable, and into the doll's head recess. However most people don't like the JUL, because it is slow to opperate, but it is as stromg as a Mauser bolt action, and works almost the same way.

Correct. Absolutely. The only thing I'll correct here is that the correct name for the Jones Underlever is the "Jones Screw-grip Action". Aside from that, yes, the Jones Screw-grip is world famous for this. It's resilience is legendary. Some of the Jones action guns are approaching 150 years of age, and it is common to see them utterly worn out, but still tight as a rat-trap. In guns of best-of-the-best quality that have had a lot of use, those with sliding bolt locking (Purdey double underlug) will be found off face much more often than a Jones Screw-grip gun of equal quality. There is simply no question that the Jones is superior in this regard. Why should that be?

As stated above, when a double gun is fired, it tries to take itself apart. Tight jointing prevents that. Once the mating surfaces have a little "running start" at each other, they begin to peen, and gradually loosen. The strongest, most resilient designs eliminiate that "running room" to the highest possible degree. The screw-grip stays tight longer because it's a SCREW. The mating surfaces cannot be fastened together as tightly with a sliding bolt as they can with a screw, period. That's just the nature of the design. A sliding bolt must have room to slide, or it will jam on firing. The screw-grip also self compensates for wear better than a wedge shaped slidig bolt. As the male/female surfaces wear, the screw just turns further in. It can't begin to loosen until it reaches the limit of it's turn. That's why the Jones Screw-grip was so strong and durable.

A screw-grip is a screw grip, and the Jones wasn't the only one. There are three screw-grip designs used in double guns and rifles, each used to fasten different things. The Jones Screw-grip Action patent of 1859, which fastens the underlugs of the barrels to the action via a screw grip engagement; The Wilkinson Sword Co Screw-grip Fore-End Fastener patent of 1866 (the side-swinging lever type) which fastens the fore end to the fore-end lug via a screw grip engagement; and the Webley & Brain Screw-grip Top Fastener patent of 1882, which screws a doll's head extension down into it's mortise in the action via a screw-grip engagement. The last two were direct cribs on the Henry Jones patent, and they are just as superior to other designs for the same reason.

Of the common fore-end fasteners - Wilkinson, Anson, and Deeley-Edge - both of the latter get out of order pretty often, and I've seen such result in shattered fore-end wood with both. I've never seen, nor heard, of the screw-grip type out of order. Any problems with the screw-grip type are easier to correct than with the other two.

Third fasteners (top fasteners) are intended to limit the degree to which the barrels of a drop down barrel action rotate open on the hinge during firing, nothing else, and are an adjunct to the sliding double underbolts engaging the underlugs. A simple extension cannot do this, only an extension with some type of additional mechanical fastener can. Here again, you cannot fasten a barrel extension to the action as tightly with a sliding bolt, including a Greener cross-bolt, as you can with a screw grip engagement. The Webley built double rifles use a male screw lug on the spindle to engage a female lug cut into the doll's head (the Webley doll's heads are "chopper-lump", meaning they are integral to the barrels. The extensions for the sliding bolt types sometimes are, but often are not, as with the Merkels and Heyms, which are brazed on). As with the Jones Screw-grip, no sliding bolt third fastener is as positive, or wears as well, as a third fastener of the Screw-grip type.

As with the Jones, the proof is in the guns. Off face double guns and rifles with sliding bolt type third fasteners are fairly common in repair shops, because that type of third fastener isn't very effective. Because of the number of Greener cross bolt guns I've seen off face over the years, I honestly believe it to be the least effective of the bunch. Jones Screw-grip and Webley Screw-grip guns and rifles in that condition are odd ducks indeed.

I don't know of anyone building the Jones anymore. It was strong, but a bit cumbersome. Only a few new built double rifles use the screw-grip fore-end attachment. I know of only one gunmaker in the world that is using the screw-grip top fastener. Why? They're substantially more expensive to make. As is proven daily here on the Double Rifle Forum at AR, CHEAP is ALWAYS better in today's world.
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"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

Damned if you don't learn something new every day, but some days you learn more than on others, if you listen, rather than talk!

400NE:
I too enjoy reading your posts, even the really long ones , but there are a couple of points I feel obligated to comment on.

quote:

A plain doll's head or other type of rib extension without some type of mechanical fastener to engage it is not a third fastener.

While I agree in principle, this would be at odds with the terminology used by the trade. A doll's head is a third fastener. If it incorporates a locking device, then that is referred to as a 'third bite'.

quote:

..thing I'll correct here is that the correct name for the Jones Underlever is the "Jones Screw-grip Action".

The correct name is actually "double screw-grip action" or "double screw-grip under-lever" if the text by Ian Crudgington & David Baker can be taken as the definitive authority (..and I believe it can! They quote from the original patent documents). In my circles it is simply referred to as the 'Jones-patent under-lever', which is of course, also 'correct'!

It just doesn't pay to be pedantic about terminology, especially with the diverse historical perspectives of the US, UK, and Euro gun trades. ...unless a reliable source can be quoted!

Detailed information is always welcomed and appreciated, and so is opinion of course but it remains just that. Some new members may be misled into believing certain points of view as fact, especially when presented with such inflexibility. Really, there's no need for anyone here to wave a stick. We're all students of course, but it's not school!

MacD37 and 400NE:
How about a few words on Rigby's Bissel Rising-Bite. I know it was expensive to produce but what affect did it have on barrel movement and how did it rate compared to other systems?

Dutch


Damn the man who talks shoot but won't wager on his gun or ability.

I won't go into a long discussion on the dolls head, but will refer you to Burrard for a detailed explanation. The short explaination of the dolls head is that it works in direct opposition of the flex of the bar when the gun is fired.

Dave

The riseing bite has several configuration, and IMO, they all are good, from a geometric point of view. As are most of the so-called third fasteners, and all have thier faults. Some are very good as to how they work, but are too expensive to be considered over a less expensive one that works just as, or almost as well as the expensive one at considerably less cost.

If well fitted all work well when new, but as 400NitroExpress says, some wear far quicker, and are not as good from the longivity perspective. Here one must take into consideration whether the cost of buying, then refurbishing the less expensive exceeds the cost of one that is better to start with, and still tight!

In the case of buying an old rifle these are some of the things one needs to look closely at when shopping. Some loose rifles , if bought low enough, can be made right, and still come out, with a better rifle than one that has less wear, but is priced high. The key here is to have the right man do the repare, and DO THE REPARE!

I'd like to add a couple of points to this discussion.
I agree with Nopride2. The Dolls Head was designed to help stop the standing breech from flexing backward under recoil. This flexing is opposite to the opening of the barrels.
The leading edge of the rear lump engaging with the frame also helps the hook and the hinge pin to thwart the forward movement of the barrels. I fully disagree that the hidden third fastener (H&H type)is almost useless. A lock-up that is furthest away from the hinge pin has great mechanical advantage. Many early Westley Richard guns used only their top-fastener. Look at the bolting used on the "shallow frame" over and unders such as Boss and Beretta.
Having said all that, I fully agree that a screw type lock-up is better than a sliding type.
The Rising-bite does several things at the same time. It helps stopping the standing breech/bar flex. It helps to hold the barrels from going forward, and it helps stopping the barrels from opening along their arc. The Webley Screw-grip does much the same. Just by a different mechanism.
"No one used the Greener cross-bolt as prolifically as the British did.!" I don't remember any British company except Greener building them. But, the Germans made thousands of guns with the Greener cross-bolt.

Don't know who made them, but I have seen Westley Richards drop lock rifles with Greener cross-bolts.

465H&H

Mac:

I am just curious. If you take good care of your double, keep it clean and don't shoot any high pressure loads, does that obviate any possibility of the rifle going "off face". How common of a problem is this and how do you tell if it happens? For example, some of the newer 470 ammo that deliver 2150 fps from a 24 must be at much higher pressure than the original Kynoch stuff that was supposed to deliver 2150 fps from a 31 inch barrel. Nobody seems to care and some guns like Searcy are routinely regulated at that velocity.

Dave:

As far as I know, the newer ammunition obtain the same speed in shorter barrels with lower pressures than the ammunition manufactured a hundred years before. Modern powders are much better than the old cordite.
In Graeme Wright´s book you can see the pressure readings

Best regards.

"The tilting block locking system was invented in the early years of the last century by Jäger, a gun maker working in the famous gun making town of Suhl. It is immensely strong and locks directly into the barrel(s). During the years it was used on and off by several German and Austrian gun makers. British gun makers never copied it, I don’t know why. Perhaps it was the "NIH" (Not Invented Here) syndrome. It might also have been a question of license fees because Jäger certainly took out a patent on his invention. In 1986 Blaser revived the tilting block lock, using it in their famous K77 UL ("Ultralight") break open single shot rifle. From then on it has been a design feature of Blaser rifles, single shot, combination, drillings and doubles.

As mentioned before it is one of the strongest DR locks. The .470 NE develops a maximum pressure of 2700 bar (ca. 39200 psi). Lutz Moeller reports on his website that Scheiring from Ferlach built a break open single shot tilting block rifle in cal. .300" Pegasus. Due to a loading error this rifle was fired with a .300 Pegasus cartridge that developed ca 6000 bar (87,000 psi). Result was quite a loud boom, but the rifle survived this without any problems. You might therefore assume that with the Blaser S2 there should be no problems with "hot" loads. But even in a rifle with a tilting block lock, you would be well advised NOT to use overloads!

Aside from the fact that any load going beyond max pressure is unsafe, you might get extraction problems. Even should the lock of your DR take the overpressure, your cartridge cases might stick to the chamber. This would slow down reloading and that could be fatal during a big game hunt.

Keeping the pressure within the barrel/tilting block is one of the main advantages of this locking system compared with any other DR lock. Conventional DR’s are kept close by the under barrel lugs. There is usually an additional device to resist the barrels tendency to pull away from the standing breech when firing. This could be a "dolls head" or a "Greener" cross bolt passing traversally behind the standing breech and through a matching hole in the rib extension. This conventional kind of design is much more pressure sensitive. Each firing of the rifle pushes the barrels away form the breeches face. Therefore there is an inherent tendency of conventional DR’s to "shoot loose" and to "come off the face" of the breech - depending of the quality of steels used, the quality of workmanship and the frequency of use, of course.

With the Blaser tilting block design the forces of the pressure is kept within the barrel/tilting block system. There is only the force of the recoil and it pushes the barrels plus tilting block against the standing breech not away from it.

To further explain the implications of the tilting block lock: you could take the barrels out off the rifle, put cartridges into the barrels, fit the tilting block onto the barrels. Now, holding the barrel plus tilting block in your hand - you could hit the firing pins with a hammer and fire the cartridges. That is certainly not something I would advise you to do because the recoil would certainly rip the barrels violently out off your hand! I mention this only to explain that even under this condition the cartridges explosion would be contained within the barrel - tilting block system. The tilting block would not be ripped out off the barrel just because the action is not closed.

I am often asked: "Does the barrel overhang hinder a fast reloading?" My experience is: no, absolutely not! Funny thing is: when I was using double rifles of conventional design nobody ever inquired whether the dolls head or the rib extensions of a Greener lock hindered reloading!" Hans Wild

Dave,

It doesn't matter how much lipstick you apply, a pig is still a pig!

Backaction with jones underlever. The strongest!!.

quote:

Originally posted by BigFiveJack:

Is one better at fighting the forces that work to

make a rifle get loose on it's face or it's hook?

Of so, what makes that one superior?

Todd:

I really like my Blaser but I know I am in the minority. I only offered Hans' comments in response to BigFiveJack's above question. To be honest, I was hesitant to do so because I did not want to start another round of Blaser bashing. I think the tilting lock block on the Blaser is simply the strongest double rifle action on the market. Because of the design, it will not go "off face".

Good hunting my friend.

quote:

Originally posted by Tommyhawk:
I'd like to add a couple of points to this discussion.
I agree with Nopride2. The Dolls Head was designed to help stop the standing breech from flexing backward under recoil. This flexing is opposite to the opening of the barrels.
The leading edge of the rear lump engaging with the frame also helps the hook and the hinge pin to thwart the forward movement of the barrels. I fully disagree that the hidden third fastener (H&H type)is almost useless. A lock-up that is furthest away from the hinge pin has great mechanical advantage. Many early Westley Richard guns used only their top-fastener. Look at the bolting used on the "shallow frame" over and unders such as Boss and Beretta.
Having said all that, I fully agree that a screw type lock-up is better than a sliding type.
The Rising-bite does several things at the same time. It helps stopping the standing breech/bar flex. It helps to hold the barrels from going forward, and it helps stopping the barrels from opening along their arc. The Webley Screw-grip does much the same. Just by a different mechanism.
"No one used the Greener cross-bolt as prolifically as the British did.!" I don't remember any British company except Greener building them. But, the Germans made thousands of guns with the Greener cross-bolt..

The bold passage above was a typo I think you meant "Germans"

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Bush:
Mac:

I am just curious. If you take good care of your double, keep it clean and don't shoot any high pressure loads, does that obviate any possibility of the rifle going "off face". How common of a problem is this and how do you tell if it happens? For example, some of the newer 470 ammo that deliver 2150 fps from a 24 must be at much higher pressure than the original Kynoch stuff that was supposed to deliver 2150 fps from a 31 inch barrel. Nobody seems to care and some guns like Searcy are routinely regulated at that velocity.

Dave the pressure and speeds today are also measured in 31 inch test barrels at the ammo makers. The ammo today that is advertized at 2150 doesn't get 2150 in 24 inch barrels either.

However the powders we have today are far more efficient than the ammo makers had to work with 80 years ago. Cordite and flake powders used by the old makers was truly explosive, with peek pressure spikes in and close to the chambers. While the modern powders are made to have a progressive burn spread out over the full length of the barrel.

On the guarding against "off face" condition, the use of a modern grease like some of the automotive greases that have a shock load protection, are best. As long as you shoot loads that duplicate factory stuff you will have no problem. Of course anything will wear over time regardless how well you take care of it.

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Bush:
"The tilting block locking system was invented in the early years of the last century by Jäger, a gun maker working in the famous gun making town of Suhl. It is immensely strong and locks directly into the barrel(s). During the years it was used on and off by several German and Austrian gun makers. British gun makers never copied it, I don’t know why. Perhaps it was the "NIH" (Not Invented Here) syndrome. It might also have been a question of license fees because Jäger certainly took out a patent on his invention. In 1986 Blaser revived the tilting block lock, using it in their famous K77 UL ("Ultralight") break open single shot rifle. From then on it has been a design feature of Blaser rifles, single shot, combination, drillings and doubles.

I agree that the Blaser S2 is absolutely the strongest break top double rifle on the market today, other than a falling block double rifle. Both have been around for a couple hundred years, but in all that time what percentage of the total double rifles manufactured have used either of these systems?

I don’t think strength above what is needed to maintain reliability was a consideration in the making of double rifles for the use they were intended. Where the system was invented had nothing to do with it! If that had been the reason, then all the maker wouldn’t have made all their top hunting bolt rifles on the Mauser design. I is simply that most of the world simply do not like Teutonic design in firearms.

There is a world wide conception of German products as “OVER ENGENEERED” beyond need. IOW designs that work as machines best do not necessarily translate to efficient use for the purpose of the item of the firearm in the field. The British , like any other tend to rely most on what works best for the intended purpose. In the case of the double rifle, it’s best design is the one that works the simplest as a tool to avoid being eaten by a lion, or gored by a cape buffalo. Styling is a personal thing that has only to do with what one likes to look at. Some think the Blasers are beautiful, but far more do not, and again my self included.

quote:

By Dave Bush:
I am often asked: "Does the barrel overhang hinder a fast reloading?" My experience is: no, absolutely not! Funny thing is: when I was using double rifles of conventional design nobody ever inquired whether the dolls head or the rib extensions of a Greener lock hindered reloading!" ]

There is one very large difference between the two, Greener cross bolt, and the hood over the chambers on a Blaser S2! I don’t think the hood interferes with the loading as much as it hinders clearing a stuck case with only extractors the cases are harder to get to quickly if they don’t fall out of the chambers. With the Greener cross bolt or doll’s head the cases are far more accessible than with the hood

Dave please dont get the idea I’m picking on you or the Blaser rifle, because I’m certainly not. It is that I simply disagree with your take on the system used in the Blaser where dangerous game is concerned, nothing more.

I would have a lot more respect for the Blaser S-2 if the de-cocking system was the same as the Krieghoff, but it isn’t. I think a lot of folks still think the Blaser system is the same as the Krieghoff, and I believe people should know they are not the same before they decide to buy! I simply do not see my making that clear is bad form! If they know and still buy the Blaser I have no problem with that choice.

First off the above thread was posted for the most part in 2007. This was a long time before anyone had any experience with Blaser double rifles, and most, myself included, thought the de-cocker system was the same as the Krieghoff double rifle. This turned out to not be the case.

In 2007 most were wary of the de-cocking system on the krieghoff simply because everyone THOUGHT it worked the same way the Blaser turned out to work. The thinking was that the K-rifle had to be re-cocked every time the action was opened for any reason! As people became aware of the fact that once cocked fired or opened for any reason the rifle re-cocked it’s self, or stayed cocked, the objection went away on the de-cocker, in the K-rifle and switched to handling which wasn’t the best but worked for some. I would buy a Krieghoff double if the fit me, but it would be a restocking if I did, and would cost as much as a Heym safari that didn't require ay mods!

Wait before ......................................................................................... .............................

Mac:

No fire necessary. I was just trying to respond to BigFiveJack's question, not sell anybody on the Blaser.

Was very glad to hear your good health news. Hope you have many more birthdays and get to share many more campfires.

quote:

Originally posted by nopride2:
I won't go into a long discussion on the dolls head, but will refer you to Burrard for a detailed explanation. The short explaination of the dolls head is that it works in direct opposition of the flex of the bar when the gun is fired.

Dave

Yes, I can't find the reference at the moment but there are bending forces involved that are to some extent counter-intuitive. As I recall, Burrard said a carefully made dolls head deals with them adequately, even without further wedging.

400 Nitro Express
one of us

Posted 03 February 2007 03:18

"Anyone who dwells on "nothing but Britt double rifle systems" will understand the Greener cross bolt perfectly. W. W. Greener was and is a British gunmaker, and a particularly prolific gun inventor. The Greener crossbolt is a uniquely British invention. No one used the Greener cross-bolt as prolifically as the British did.!"

MacD37,
I was quoting and responding to the above quote from 2007. I just abbreviated it. Hope that clarifies things. Curious how this old thread came back up? When I posted I thought it was a current thread as it was at the top of the list.

quote:

Originally posted by sambarman338:

quote:

Originally posted by nopride2:
I won't go into a long discussion on the dolls head, but will refer you to Burrard for a detailed explanation. The short explaination of the dolls head is that it works in direct opposition of the flex of the bar when the gun is fired.

Dave

Yes, I can't find the reference at the moment but there are bending forces involved that are to some extent counter-intuitive. As I recall, Burrard said a carefully made dolls head deals with them adequately, even without further wedging.

Sambarman338, You are absolutely right! The standing breech doesn’t move back away from the barrels,the barrels move away from the standing breech because the pressure bends the bar downward, pulling the barrels away from the standing breech. The doll’s head or greener cross bolt retards this bending, but more importantly limits the amount it can move. This is why I said the hidden third fastener, not only being lower has no side wider edges like the doll’s head, or a cross bolt to limit its forward movement. The higher the third fastener is the more effect it has on this bending.

The constant bending, over time, from over reverse thrust pressure will cause an off face condition that is sometimes un-reparable! The off face condition that is caused purely by poor care is not that hard to fix with a re-hooking. A bent bar, however, is another story!

The fact that some see the Greener cross bolt, and/or the doll’s head without a mechanical feature like the screw grip, as totally useless are wrong. They are not only valuable to the life of the rifle but are better that the hidden third fastener so often used in many English doubles IMO!.
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Dave,

I was just jerking a knot in your tail! All in fun my friend.

Todd

No problem Todd.

Hey, how long did they tell you till your new VC will be ready. I am anxious to see pics.

9 Months or so for the VC. Ken offered to put a rush job in time for my tuskless hunt with Buzz this October but I didn't want to be a pain for one and secondly, it wouldn't have given me time to ring it out properly. I'm planning on blooding it in April with Buzz when I return for an Ele Bull.

I'm anxious to see it underway as well. I made a couple of changes to it from the original order, mainly nickel finish instead of CCH and added enhanced engraving.

The Merkel will get one last look at Africa, at least in my hands.

Todd, what is the LOP of your new gun? I just ordered a Chapuis double and went 15.375. I am worried that maybe I went a little too long?

quote:

Sambarman338, You are absolutely right! The standing breech doesn’t move back away from the barrels,the barrels move away from the standing breech because the pressure bends the bar downward, pulling the barrels away from the standing breech. The doll’s head or greener cross bolt retards this bending, but more importantly limits the amount it can move. This is why I said the hidden third fastener, not only being lower has no side wider edges like the doll’s head, or a cross bolt to limit its forward movement. The higher the third fastener is the more effect it has on this bending.

The constant bending, over time, from over reverse thrust pressure will cause an off face condition that is sometimes un-reparable! The off face condition that is caused purely by poor care is not that hard to fix with a re-hooking. A bent bar, however, is another story!

The fact that some see the Greener cross bolt, and/or the doll’s head without a mechanical feature like the screw grip, as totally useless are wrong. They are not only valuable to the life of the rifle but are better that the hidden third fastener so often used in many English doubles IMO!.
............................................

Thanks Mac, it's nice not to get my ears burnt off for a change. I'm sorry to say I don't even have a copy of Burrard but only borrowed one about 20 years ago.

I do wish my rifle had the dolls head and not just a crossbolt, though.