I consider my self fairly gun savvy but certainly a greenhorn with double-rifles.

But...I am with Mike on this one...I like the Merkel as well as the Heym for fit & finish. I like it (Merkel) better for pointability and price.

I bought a Merkel 140-2 .500 NE for my first double and can't really find any flies on it. I did not like the sights and my eyes are going through the 40's change...so I had Bailey Bradshaw build me an aperture sight for it which I love. Mine just happens to have fancy wood...have seen some rather plain stocks on both though.

Could some one more knowledgeable than me do a compare and contrast between the PH and the 140-2. I know the Heym has intercepting sears which I wish my rifle had.

What else???

I know this is not a double blind study, but my unscientific analysis is that (i) a number of PH's carry the Heyms and I personally cannot think of one PH that carries a Merkel even though the Merkels are cheaper, (ii) George Caswell who has handled and sold more double rifles than anyone in the US says that the Heym and Chapius are the only two modern made doubles that he recommends for standing up to the rigors of regular hunting. I think that the real difference between the two comes down to durability. The fit and finish of the Heym is superior too in my opinion.

Lane, I have to say this when you pick up the double that was not made for your specs, the one fitting you better was made for a guy your size length of pull, drop, cast etc. If you close your eyes and raise and point and open you should be right on. Fitting you more then bells and whistles. I like ejectors and a manual safety Really only one express sight is enough for me.

Mike

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
I know this is not a double blind study, but my unscientific analysis is that (i) a number of PH's carry the Heyms and I personally cannot think of one PH that carries a Merkel cannot think of one PH that carries a Merkel even though the Merkels are cheaper, (ii) George Caswell who has handled and sold more double rifles than anyone in the US says that the Heym and Chapius are the only two modern made doubles that he recommends for standing up to the rigors of regular hunting. I think that the real difference between the two comes down to durability. The fit and finish of the Heym is superior too in my opinion.

http://forums.accuratereloadin...1411043/m/3051091101

Mike, you need to review your own retrospective study above.

Retreever knows one who does or did carry a Merkel.

I am interested in the true comparison though. I cannot find a worn out or off-face Merkel posting either. I have visited Champlins...not too far away from me...they did not offer negativity to me. Have been told by knowledgeable folks that the Merkel action is very strong and well built.

Retreever,
I have shot a shotgun quite a bit. My Merkel points like my skeet gun...one of the reasons I like it.

ledvm,

I can't claim to be more knowledgeable than you, just offer the path I took that led to a Heym.

When I was going through all the mental gymnastics, I realized fit, feel and balance were primary, so I made it my mission to handle and shoot as many doubles as I possibly could manage.

SCI Reno was the best place I could find to handle a large number of rifles. While there over 4 days I handled a number of Brit. built riles in addition to Merkels, Heyms, Butch's, K guns, H&H, H&W etc. In the end I really liked the feel of the Brit. doubles, primarily those older rifles on the Webley long bar. Of those that appeared to be on face and had good barrels the price made me weak in the knees.
I liked the Heyms second best for a number of mostly personal reasons, but the big one being they felt most like the Brit guns that where beyond my comfort to pay for and throw on a plane to take hunting. Shortly after this I was blessed with being invited to a DRSS event and was able to shoot several examples of makers mentioned above. I still favored the Heym, so that is what I bought, and having taken it to Zim. and shot buff and some other stuff with the rifle, I still like it.

Right now I think we are fortunite in that we have a number of good double rifles to choose from that can spark these type of discussions, but in the end I think it comes down to the personal issue of likes and dislikes.

Many Thanks

HBH

HBH,

Thank you sir for the comment. I bought the Merkel for the exact same reason that you bought the Heym plus the cheaper price.

That thread is three years old. Watch the shows now and you will see, if you will be open minded enough to be truthful, that the majority of the PHs that carry doubles are carrying British doubles, Krieghoffs or Heyms. Some how I suspect that you would come to a contrarian view regardless of what you saw on the shows though.

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

Could some one more knowledgeable than me do a compare and contrast between the PH and the 140-2. I know the Heym has intercepting sears which I wish my rifle had.

What else???

This is what comes standard on the Heym PH model:

24 -26" Krupp Steel, Hammer-Forged Barrels (your choice)
> Triple lock-up, with double lugs and greener cross-bolt
> Articulated (hinged) Front Trigger
> Cocking Indicators
> Intercepting sears
> Ejectors
> Stocked to customer's dimensions
> Select European walnut (Upgrades Available)
> Bolstered Frame

Heym give's you the option to pick out the stock blank yourself as well as build it left handed for no extra charge. They are built to your specifications, not off the rack. Plus the newer ones are designed to accept a Docter red dot sight.

They also have a life time warranty and if you ever need repairs (outside of barrel replacements) everything is handled by Champlins/JJ so it does not need to leave the country to be fixed.

What comes standard on the Merkel? Do they come with a lifetime warranty? Are they built to order?

You seem happy with your decision to own a Merkel. Obviously the Heym owners think they are worth the extra money or they would not of purchased one.

Mike J.,

I value your opinion. I have even PMed you asking questions about loading for the .500 NE...to which you always responded with helpful info.

Just because I don't always except the dogma...does not make me a contrarian...at least in my opinion.

I was looking for specifics in my thread not just a comment to watch TV and be monkey-see-monkey-do...no disrespect intended...please don't take any.

I would be interested in your opinion on "what" makes the Heym superior.

Don't discount the French doubles.

I know I would not trade two of my doubles for a Heym even though it was the one I originally had my eye on. Chapuis and V-C both seem to offer more for the USD which actually surprised me once I got past some personal bias. They are built to fit the purchaser as well so, whatever measurement you need (or want) and whatever features you desire are no problem when you order your rifle.

Lane, are you contemplating getting another DR? The big advantage is that you have (and like) the Merkel already. If you're getting another DR, then you certainly have your pick, but why stray from a brand that you use and like? Plus, do you think you'll get 50% greater satisfaction to justify the price difference?

I mentioned the two "what" items that speak volumns to me, the opinions of those that rely on the rifles in the field and those that qualify as premier double rifle experts in the United States. I can come up with a long list of features that two cars have in common, that still does not make a Chevy the same as a Lexus. If a mechanic that is not paid by either company tells me that the Lexus is a better made car and that is the car they would personally chose over the Chevy, I find that "what" to be persuasive.

I am no shill for Heym. I owned a Heym .470 and commented at length on this forum about how that rifle beat the crap out of me. But since then, Heym has increased the weight on the doubles, lengthened the barrels and changed the stock contour. The Heym's today are accurate, pleasant to shoot, and my mechanic tells me they like them better than the Chevy because they are a better built rifle.

Howdy Biebs,

If you looked in my 3 gun-safes...it would be obvious I like rifles...yep I am going to shop at the shows.

Really though...just trying to learn. Really the only thing I would like different on my rifle is intercepting sears and maybe ejectors. Didn't like the sights but Bailey fixed that.

Mike,

The mechanics in which I have consulted have said it is more like the difference between a Ford F-250 Lariat and the F-250 King Ranch model.

Tried to answer your original question and offered some insight as to what a basic Heym offered as far as options since you asked to compare the two.

Are Merkels built to order? Life time warranty? Ejectors standard? Articulating front trigger? etc?

French, German, Aussie or USA rifles. By the time you add in all the options the Heym comes standard with you are close to the Heym price. Some people consider the Heym build quality better. I am not yet in a position to state that is true or not.

Lane, the new Merkel DRs have ejectors.

quote:

If you looked in my 3 gun-safes...it would be obvious I like rifles

Only 3??? What's the matter with you? :-)

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
Mike,

The mechanics in which I have consulted have said it is more like the difference between a Ford F-250 Lariat and the F-250 King Ranch model.

Having owned and shot both, on that characterization we will have to respectfully disagree. The differences between the Heym and Merkel are more than just trim levels. But to each his own.

quote:

Originally posted by Snowwolfe:

This is what comes standard on the Heym PH model:

24 -26" Krupp Steel, Hammer-Forged Barrels (your choice)
> Triple lock-up, with double lugs and greener cross-bolt
> Articulated (hinged) Front Trigger
> Cocking Indicators
> Intercepting sears
> Ejectors
> Stocked to customer's dimensions
> Select European walnut (Upgrades Available)
> Bolstered Frame

Heym give's you the option to pick out the stock blank yourself as well as build it left handed for no extra charge. They are built to your specifications, not off the rack. Plus the newer ones are designed to accept a Docter red dot sight.

They also have a life time warranty and if you ever need repairs (outside of barrel replacements) everything is handled by Champlins/JJ so it does not need to leave the country to be fixed.

What comes standard on the Merkel? Do they come with a lifetime warranty? Are they built to order?

Barrels are 23 1/2" long

No intercepting sears

Basic model has extractors

The rest is pretty close.

quote:

Having owned and shot both, on that characterization we will have to respectfully disagree. The differences between the Heym and Merkel are more than just trim levels. But to each his own.

Have not owned both but have shot both and just standing and shooting a target...I like my Merkel better...that is why I bought it.

I wish I could find a true smith like person to elaborate on the differences in the actual working parts as I am having a hard time seeing them and mine has prettier wood than most Heyms I have seen. I admit the intercepting sears and ejectors are definite pluses.

I've owned 4 Merkels (9.3x74R, 2-470's and a 500NE) and all fit great and shot great. The only thing I had done to them was a change in recoil pad and spacer for LOP and the triggers adjusted to 4lbs front and 4.5lbs back trigger. I kept the older 470 with extractors and the square post/notch which I can see and shoot better than a v/bead. I don't have any experience with Heym but my experience with Merkel has been very good. I promised Butch I would take the Searcy on the next trip to Africa if I can learn to shoot the V rear sight and bead.

Lane:

IIRC, Chris aka "New Guy" did a great job a year or so back explaining double rifle workings in general and Heym in particular.

As I am a low tech guy, ie poor computer skills, please do a search of this forum or "New Guy's" posts for the old thread.

Or..perhaps one of you more tech saavy members can post and paste for me.

Thanks,

RCG

Compare and contrast Heym and Merkel --

My experience has the Heym balanced better of the two with the "weight between the hands". The Merkel feels barrel heavy to me and not as quick to swing about.

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by Snowwolfe:

This is what comes standard on the Heym PH model:

24 -26" Krupp Steel, Hammer-Forged Barrels (your choice)
> Triple lock-up, with double lugs and greener cross-bolt
> Articulated (hinged) Front Trigger
> Cocking Indicators
> Intercepting sears
> Ejectors
> Stocked to customer's dimensions
> Select European walnut (Upgrades Available)
> Bolstered Frame

Heym give's you the option to pick out the stock blank yourself as well as build it left handed for no extra charge. They are built to your specifications, not off the rack. Plus the newer ones are designed to accept a Docter red dot sight.

They also have a life time warranty and if you ever need repairs (outside of barrel replacements) everything is handled by Champlins/JJ so it does not need to leave the country to be fixed.

What comes standard on the Merkel? Do they come with a lifetime warranty? Are they built to order?

Barrels are 23 1/2" long

No intercepting sears

Basic model has extractors

The rest is pretty close.

This is an excerpt from a previous thread regarding "sears" or "trigger block" in Merkel DR's. On all the new guns, the Merkel folks say you can fire either barrel first with little chance of a double discharge. It's not true intercepting sears on Merkels, but the functionality on the new guns is basically the same.

(mdstewart
one of us
Posted 15 March 2011 15:14 Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by JCS271:

quote:
Originally posted by mdstewart:
I double checked with the folks at Merkel last week, and Mac is right; Merkel DR's are inherently designed to fire the front trigger first. This is important not only to help eliminate the chance of a DD, but also to help with regulation.
Just FYI.
Mike


So if I decided that I want to shoot the solid in my left barrel first, then I would have to worry about a POSSIBLE "double discharge due to factory design" as well as the buffalo right in front of me?

I think I'll pass.



All of the older Merkel's do not have true intercepting sears, but do have what Herbert described as a "safety block" that is recoil inertia operated to prevent a DD when the right barrel is shot first. With the very crisp triggers of the older Merkels, a DD is possible if the left barrel is fired first.

However, on all the new guns being imported (monoblocks), Merkels will not DD due to redesigned sear engagement regardless of which trigger is pulled first.

If you have an older gun that is doubling on you, it's a simple fix. Either send the gun back to Merkel or send it to me. Either way, the gun will get to Herbert at Merkel who will replace the sear and hammers with the new models which will fix your gun to meet your needs.

There could be an exception if you own a gun that is say over 15 years old before Merkel USA/GSI/Steyr represented the guns.

I believe Herbert will replace the sear & hammers at no charge as long as the gun has not been altered.

DD's are usually user error, and if the front trigger is pulled first, usually the shooter has strummed the rear trigger without knowing it.)

Hope this helps, Mike

DRSS
Merkel 160.1-2 8x75RS
JP Sauer Drilling 12x12x8x57JR
Merkel 147SSL 12 Gauge
And Too Many More
Posts: 398 | Location: Chattanooga, TN | Registered: 10 August 2010

We covered this in great detail a few years ago when Russ Gould presented the same question, but that reply was in the classifieds section and not archived.

In a nut-shell, it comes down to efficiency.

If you only make one length of barrel, then you can produce them more efficiently than the company that builds each barrel set to the length their customer requests.

If you use a one-piece top rib with integral ramps, then you can save some time (and cost) in making parts and putting barrels together.

Mono-block barrels are less expensive to make than shoe-lump.

Merkel makes their stocks on a CNC machine, but last I checked they will custom-make one for you for about 1,500 Euro.

Merkel builds many more shotguns and doubles rifles than HEYM does, and the action and forend iron on their double are the same as their 20ga shotgun. This also makes parts less expensive for Merkel to produce, whereas HEYM only makes about 50-60 doubles rifles per year and has no parts to share with their higher-volume shotgun production.

Of course the HEYM has intercepting sears, but it's also available left-handed, stocked to fit, with your choice of cheekpieces, forend, barrel length, barrel firing order (for left-handers), stocked with the wood you select, with the finish you choose, and engraved the way you want.

If you want all of those options, then they are going to cost more (regardless of who builds it) because building a rifle to order reduces efficiency.

Merkel could build a rifle just like a HEYM for the same price, and HEYM could build a gun like Merkel for the same price. Each, however, choses to serve a different segment of the market.

As to the "feel" of the weight in the guns, they are completely different.

quote:

Mono-block barrels are less expensive to make than shoe-lump.

My Merkel is a shoe-lump.

But Chris from what I am hearing...if one likes the features of one's Merkel and it fits one and points like one's skeet gun...you offer no criticisms of their quality? I concede the intercepting sears is a good-to-have feature. Am I wrong???

This is starting to feel less like a quest for information and more like an effort at rationalization.

Let's make it easy, the Merkel is twice the gun that the Heym is full stop. I wonder if I can find someone that will trade me their Merkel for my Heym even up? Will I have to come up with some boot? Why did I ever buy the damn Heym to begin with? Shame on Chris for tricking me.

quote:

the Heym and Chapius are the only two modern made doubles that he recommends for standing up to the rigors of regular hunting.

WOW!! I know guys that are hunting hogs, red deer, fallow deer, etc every week end for 5-6 months/yr. I can't believe that Merkel has a reliability problem. Maybe in the DG calibers but I would doubt it.

I know in the secondary market in Germany, there is little interest in Heym at the prices folks think they are worth.

Mike I am trying to figure out the Heym hype. I...as a fixer of things broken...like to know the specifics of how things work.

I have thrown Heym the intercepting sears bone. Now I am trying to figure out the rest. I like the feel, weight, length of barrels, and looks of my rifle. I am looking for meat-and-potatoes answers NOT somebody told me so.

So...as the saying goes...if you know something...speak up... otherwise the "forever hold your peace" may apply to you.

Mums the word . . . only yes men need apply.

I had a Merkel in .470 and it was just too light. I shoot probably 300 to 400 rounds a year out of all of my rifles. Some of them get to play more than others. Put 400 rounds, so far, through my .458 Lott. The Merkel .470 just pounded me. I sold it and bought a Blaser S2 in .470. I can shoot it off the Bench without a lead sled for at least 40 rounds accurately. I have to admit, I have never owned a rifle that shouldered as well as the Merkel. Close your eyes, shoulder it and the sights were perfectly aligned........ Still too light

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
Mums the word . . . only yes men need apply.

Or those with actual facts.

Weight is a double edged sword for sure. I was worried about weight when I first got my .500 as they are slightly lighter than the .470 Merkels. After shooting the .500...I quit worrying about it as it was tolerable to shoot. I like the weight when carrying.

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
Mums the word . . . only yes men need apply.

Or those with actual facts.

CORRECTION: Or those with actual facts that support the decision of the original poster that he is seeking to justify.

Look, it is no big deal, we all make a purchase from time to time that we live to regret. Best thing to do is to accept that and move on, trying to rationalize the purchase will just leave you frustrated and looking foolish. If the quality and craftsmanship of the rifles is comparable, if I offered to trade my Heym for a Merkel heads up, I should struggle to find someone to take the other side of that deal right? I am confident that would not be the case.

I have not owned a Heym or a Merkel double rifle but my friend has and I had an opportunity to shoot both guns on several occasions. I thought the fit and finish on the Heym 500 NE was superb but it wasn't regulated properly. I found it to be bulky and didn't care for the way it handled. When my friend took it to Africa, one of the firing pins broke.

I also shot his Merkel. If I remember correctly, it was a .470 NE. It handled much better than the Heym but I though that it was too light for the caliber.

I am not interested in a .500. They kick like hell. If it was me, I would pick up a Merkel in 450/400 (or a K-gun in 500/416), put the extra money towards a Safari and not look back.

I bought my first double rifle, a Merkel 140AE, early this year . There were two things I didn't like about it; the auto safety and the sights. I had the auto safety disabled and both the front and rear sights replaced. The total cost of the mods was about $400, which is peanuts compared to the cost of the rifle. As a double rifle novice, I am now absolutely happy with my Merkel.

Hugh

[QUOTE]Originally posted by MJines:

I wonder if I can find someone that will trade me their Merkel for my Heym even up? Will I have to come up with some boot?QUOTE]

Mike, you bet I'll trade you my Merkel sidelock for your Heym straight up, no boot!

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Bush:
...I thought the fit and finish on the Heym 500 NE was superb but it wasn't regulated properly. I found it to be bulky and didn't care for the way it handled. When my friend took it to Africa, one of the firing pins broke.

I'm pretty sure I know who your friend is, as I've only heard of / repaired one rifle that had the end of a stuck firing pin ripped off while in Africa. In fact, I believe I still have the firing pin that was removed.

He never mentioned, however, any complaints with regulation.

quote:

Originally posted by PSmith:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by MJines:

I wonder if I can find someone that will trade me their Merkel for my Heym even up? Will I have to come up with some boot?QUOTE]

Mike, you bet I'll trade you my Merkel sidelock for your Heym straight up, no boot!

Paul,

You know I lust after your Merkel. I have a Heym 88B in .375 used. I'll trade you straight up right now. I might even consider giving you some boot. And I'm serious.

Mike

This is in response to some other posts on this thread, and not intended to discredit or upset anyone, as I am aware many here have as much if not more expertise than I at these issues.

First, the Merkel DR's are technically built on a frame that is the same size as the Merkel 20 gauge shotguns, however, the steel is treated differently to make it harder in the safari double rifles. So to claim Merkels are made on shotgun actions is disingenious and inaccurate. This claim has continuously been stated by a well respected dealer. However, just by saying it hundreds of times does not make it true.

Merkel DR's have to withstand the same exact proof testings that the Heyms have to pass, and Merkels have never failed to pass the test. Not a single Merkel DR has ever been sold that has not passed the same proof tests as a Heym, and as most of you know, proof tests are at 30% over normal shooting pressures.

Merkel has compiled excellent data that supports the stock dimensions of their shotguns and DR's. These stock dimensions fit 80-90 percent of all shooters with adjustments needed often for length of pull. Merkel will customize a stock for you at an additional cost if you think that's what you need. 2 5/8" DAH, 1 1/2" DAC, 1/8" cast off, and 14.5" LOP is standard, and that is very well fitted for most hunters today.

With Merkels' changes on all the new models, the intercepting sears argument is mute. Merkels effectively perform the same as Heym as far as safety and confidence regarding the sears. Although designed differently, they function the same. A Merkel owner can now confidently fire either barrel first without the worry of double discharge.

The last argument regarding monoblock vs. shoe lump is also mute. Neither gun is considered a "Best Gun", as defined by the British standards for "Best Guns". There is no scientific data to supoort the use of Chopper Lump vs. Shoe Lump vs. Mono-Block as far as strength or durability. "Best Guns" must have chopper lump as they are more tedious to build and more expensive, and are best known as the standard of British Best Guns. Shoe Lump was originally considered to be the less expensive, yet still as strong, method of joining barrels and actions. Then as recently as 1881, Henri Pieper of Belgium patented the Mono-Block design which simplified and reduced the costs in joining barrels to actions. The mono-block design has been used on thousands of high quality firearms ever since, with no evidence that this system is weaker than the others. It just is more efficient to produce and saves the gun owner alot of money.

Again, if someone insists that Heyms are a higher quality than a Merkel, we will have to agree to disagree. I personally like both guns alot, but dollar for dollar, the Merkel wins out fot me. I can have a fully engraved Merkel sidelock for what an 88B Heym costs. To me, that's no comnparison.