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Reloading for doubles and seating depth
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Picture of Mike_Dettorre
posted
I normally load 10/1000 of the lands for bolt actions (50/1000 for Barnes), is there anything different to consider for doubles?

I would think not, but can't hurt to ask.

Thanks,


Mike

Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue.



What I have learned on AR, since 2001:
1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken.
2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps.
3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges.
4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down.
5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine.
6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle.
7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions.
8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA.
9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not.
10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact.
11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores.
12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence.
13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances.
 
Posts: 10096 | Location: Loving retirement in Boise, ID | Registered: 16 December 2003Reply With Quote
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On both my doubles I seat the bullets in the crimp groove and have had good results with easy regulation.
 
Posts: 345 | Location: Ogden, Utah | Registered: 13 November 2010Reply With Quote
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All the bullets I have loaded for the following cartridges have been seated to the cannelure without issue in my double rifles:

400/360
9.3x74
450/400 3 1/4
450/400 3"
450 3 1/4
500/450
470

I suspect you could get some poi change with different seating depths but I always got where I needed to be with powder weight adjustments.

What caliber are you loading for?
 
Posts: 1311 | Location: Texas | Registered: 29 August 2006Reply With Quote
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I have found that the seating depth of a bullet into the case for double rifles can affect the accuracy. Further to this I have found that seating depth that produces a shorter cartridge overall length can be more accurate in some cartridges. To my mind this seems to be opposite what I had expected. My experience suggests that trial and error is warranted. However, you must understand that seating the bullet deeper into the cartridge case increases the chamber pressure of the cartridge at firing. I use a "virtual chamber pressure" software to view the expected chamber pressure in such cases.
 
Posts: 348 | Location: South Carolina USA | Registered: 20 March 2013Reply With Quote
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Picture of Mike_Dettorre
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I am loading Speer 270s in a 9,3x74r and there is no crimping groove.

I have a fair amount of reloading experience and can't think of anything other than the obvious potential impact on pressure and accuracy just wondering if there is anything unique to double rifles.


Mike

Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue.



What I have learned on AR, since 2001:
1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken.
2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps.
3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges.
4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down.
5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine.
6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle.
7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions.
8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA.
9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not.
10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact.
11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores.
12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence.
13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances.
 
Posts: 10096 | Location: Loving retirement in Boise, ID | Registered: 16 December 2003Reply With Quote
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Picture of Bill73
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quote:
Originally posted by Mike_Dettorre:
I am loading Speer 270s in a 9,3x74r and there is no crimping groove.

I have a fair amount of reloading experience and can't think of anything other than the obvious potential impact on pressure and accuracy just wondering if there is anything unique to double rifles.


There is only one thing that comes to mind,do not shoot bullets that are not appropriate for double rifles,monolithic bullets with no rings cut in them will damage your rifle,I use North Fork bore riders for a solid in my rifles.


DRSS
 
Posts: 2277 | Location: MI | Registered: 20 March 2007Reply With Quote
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Bill73,

Thanks...Can you explain why/how non grooved monolithics cause damage?

Thanks,


Mike

Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue.



What I have learned on AR, since 2001:
1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken.
2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps.
3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges.
4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down.
5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine.
6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle.
7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions.
8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA.
9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not.
10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact.
11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores.
12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence.
13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances.
 
Posts: 10096 | Location: Loving retirement in Boise, ID | Registered: 16 December 2003Reply With Quote
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The phenomenon with monolithic (non grooved, non banded solid) bullets is called “OSR” Over Stressed Rifling. It has been observed in a few double rifles, thought to be due to thinner barrel walls on doubles.
Lots of pontificating back and forth about whether it is real or not....I happen to believe it can be a real occurence.
Search here or on the web:
http://www.calpappas.com/2010/...nonbeliever-has.html
http://www.calpappas.com/2013/11/osr-update.html

Graeme Wright’s book “Shooting the British Double Rifle” has a good section about barrel stress.
 
Posts: 296 | Location: Colorado, USA | Registered: 13 April 2017Reply With Quote
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Years ago double men from down under experimented with seating depth to increase pressure and thereby velocity. It seemed they were on to something but then it petered out and I did not hear any updates so I assume the theory died.

Bullets?
I shot banded solids in my Wilkes .600 with no problems of OSR or high pressure. The bands are prefered over solid shank bullets and the Barnes I shot were .002" undersize. Accuracy and velocity remained constant.

There are lots of bullets that are new and improved, come with fantastic claims of penetration, and have foolish names to draw attention to them. In my limited experience, nothing beats a Woodleigh soft or solid for double rifles. They are well made, look the part, preform well, and have stood the test of time.

Cal


_______________________________

Cal Pappas, Willow, Alaska
www.CalPappas.com
www.CalPappas.blogspot.com
1994 Zimbabwe
1997 Zimbabwe
1998 Zimbabwe
1999 Zimbabwe
1999 Namibia, Botswana, Zambia--vacation
2000 Australia
2002 South Africa
2003 South Africa
2003 Zimbabwe
2005 South Africa
2005 Zimbabwe
2006 Tanzania
2006 Zimbabwe--vacation
2007 Zimbabwe--vacation
2008 Zimbabwe
2012 Australia
2013 South Africa
2013 Zimbabwe
2013 Australia
2016 Zimbabwe
2017 Zimbabwe
2018 South Africa
2018 Zimbabwe--vacation
2019 South Africa
2019 Botswana
2019 Zimbabwe vacation
2021 South Africa
2021 South Africa (2nd hunt a month later)
______________________________
 
Posts: 7281 | Location: Willow, Alaska | Registered: 29 June 2009Reply With Quote
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Picture of crshelton
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quote:
There are lots of bullets that are new and improved, come with fantastic claims of penetration, and have foolish names to draw attention to them. In my limited experience, nothing beats a Woodleigh soft or solid for double rifles. They are well made, look the part, preform well, and have stood the test of time.


Another perceptive observation from an experienced shooter.
+1 on the Woodies.

Similar to the old Redneck adage of "If it ain't broke, don't fix it".
I may be a Redenck because the Leupold 4X scope on my pre 64 M70 .308 has remained untouched for decades; I just have to remember that at 100 yards it shoots 1.75 inches high and 1/4 inch left.


NRA Life Benefactor Member,
DRSS, DWWC, Whittington
Center,Android Reloading
Ballistics App at
http://www.xplat.net/
 
Posts: 2294 | Location: Republic of Texas | Registered: 25 May 2009Reply With Quote
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Picture of Bill73
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Mike,
A non banded bullet will cause high barrel strain & will probably loosen the ribs etc holding the barrels together,thereby loosing regulation,in a double rifle,you do not want a solid shank with no bands traveling down your barrels,there is no place for the displaced metal to go,in a banded solid only the bands touch your barrels & the displaced metal will move into the space between the rings,OSR is another phenomenon caused by hard bullets.


DRSS
 
Posts: 2277 | Location: MI | Registered: 20 March 2007Reply With Quote
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Picture of Mike_Dettorre
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Thank you for a simple and straight forward explanation.


Mike

Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue.



What I have learned on AR, since 2001:
1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken.
2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps.
3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges.
4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down.
5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine.
6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle.
7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions.
8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA.
9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not.
10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact.
11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores.
12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence.
13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances.
 
Posts: 10096 | Location: Loving retirement in Boise, ID | Registered: 16 December 2003Reply With Quote
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Don't forget what seem to be the original monometals, ie. those by G S Custom. They were all amazingly accurate! What caliber are you loading for?
Peter


Be without fear in the face of your enemies. Be brave and upright, that God may love thee. Speak the truth always, even if it leads to your death. Safeguard the helpless and do no wrong;
 
Posts: 10515 | Location: Jacksonville, Florida | Registered: 09 January 2004Reply With Quote
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9,3x74r. Oh I will never forget GS Custom.


Mike

Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue.



What I have learned on AR, since 2001:
1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken.
2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps.
3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges.
4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down.
5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine.
6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle.
7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions.
8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA.
9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not.
10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact.
11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores.
12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence.
13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances.
 
Posts: 10096 | Location: Loving retirement in Boise, ID | Registered: 16 December 2003Reply With Quote
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Hello Mike_Dettorre,

I have experimented with seating depth on several of my double rifles in order to obtain best regulation.

An example is when I first started reloading for my Fraser 9.3x74R I experienced vertical separation from right and left barrels with the left barrel always shooting higher by 6" at 50 yards.

I started varying the seating depth and ultimately I discovered the farther out I seated the bullets, the better the regulation. I ended up with an OL of 3.714" and 4-shot groups under 1-1/2" using Speer 270g bullets and RL 15 powder.

With some of my other double rifles I've had good results using the factory crimping groove to determine loaded length. But then with some others, not so much. I've seated the bullets farther out with some, and deeper in the case with others to optimize the load.

I consider seating depth just another variable to test when trying to find loads that regulate best in a double rifle.

Something else worth considering is; if you are not firmly crimping the bullet, check if you are getting bullet "pull-out" from the recoil of shooting the first barrel. Measure your cartridge overall lengths, shoot the one barrel, and remove the unfired cartridge and measure if the overall length stayed the same, or if it increased because the bullet moved forward during recoil.

I found bullet "pull-out" can be an issue especially with my heavy recoiling doubles in 470NE, 500NE, 600NE, and 700NE. When I load for those, if I don't use bullets that have a crimping groove to apply a firm crimp, I seat the bullets to firmly touch the rifling. This prevents the second cartridge from having its bullet move forward during recoil.

all this is IMHO.

Buck


" .... you never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early .... "

How to Hunt Wisconsin Whitetail Deer with a Cannon

How to Hunt Feral Cats with a Mortar
 
Posts: 2139 | Location: Whitetail Country - Wisconsin | Registered: 28 September 2013Reply With Quote
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I found bullet "pull-out" can be an issue especially with my heavy recoiling doubles in 470NE, 500NE, 600NE, and 700NE. When I load for those, if I don't use bullets that have a crimping groove to apply a firm crimp, I seat the bullets to firmly touch the rifling. This prevents the second cartridge from having its bullet move forward during recoil.

Buck,
Would seating the bullets to firmly touch the rifling have an effect on the pressures generated? I know you shoot a lot of reduced loads,so maybe it has not been a problem for you,maybe I will learn something here? I have shot single shots & cast bullets touching the rifling,but pretty low speeds,but a harder bullet at regulation speed in a DR ?


DRSS
 
Posts: 2277 | Location: MI | Registered: 20 March 2007Reply With Quote
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Picture of buckstix
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Bill73:
Buck,
Would seating the bullets to firmly touch the rifling have an effect on the pressures generated? I know you shoot a lot of reduced loads,so maybe it has not been a problem for you,maybe I will learn something here? I have shot single shots & cast bullets touching the rifling,but pretty low speeds,but a harder bullet at regulation speed in a DR ?


Hello Bill73,

In answer to your question, with REDUCED loads its not an issue. But with FULL loads, sometimes yes, and sometimes no. There is a trade-off. When bullets are seated deeper into the case, that leaves little or no air space between the powder and the base of the bullet. Sometimes this raises pressure. When bullets are seated farther out to touch the rifling, that leaves more air space between the powder and the base of the bullet, which "some times" lowers pressure. But also, when bullets are seated farther out to touch the rifling, there is no freebore, which can "some times" raise pressures. I have found no hard and fast rule.

I chronograph every bullet I shoot, whether reduced loads, or full loads, and monitor for any signs of pressure. When I decide to test a load by seating the bullet deeper into the case, or farther out, I always reduce my powder charge by 5%, and carefully work my way back up.

I have found reloading for double rifles to be quite fascinating and much more complex than reloading for single barrel rifles. There seem to be no definitive rules. An example is; another variable that sometimes occurs with "vintage" doubles, is that the "second" barrel's throat shows less wear from being shot less. I first ran into this condition with my 1897 Lefaucheux 8mm Lebel double rifle. The second barrel consistently shot higher velocity than the first, and did not regulate very well. Chamber casts showed more wear and a deeper throat in the first barrel. Only after I re-throated both barrels to match, did the velocities also match, and the rifle came back into regulation.

Reloading for double rifles can be a real mystery. Graham Wright wrote in his book something like this - If you do "this", "this" will happen - but not always, sometimes the "opposite" will happen.

Like I said, Its a mystery.

Buck


" .... you never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early .... "

How to Hunt Wisconsin Whitetail Deer with a Cannon

How to Hunt Feral Cats with a Mortar
 
Posts: 2139 | Location: Whitetail Country - Wisconsin | Registered: 28 September 2013Reply With Quote
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Picture of buckstix
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Bill73:
Buck,
Would seating the bullets to firmly touch the rifling have an effect on the pressures generated? I know you shoot a lot of reduced loads,so maybe it has not been a problem for you,maybe I will learn something here? I have shot single shots & cast bullets touching the rifling,but pretty low speeds,but a harder bullet at regulation speed in a DR ?


Hello Bill73,

In answer to your question, with REDUCED loads its not an issue. But with FULL loads, sometimes yes, and sometimes no. There is a trade-off. When bullets are seated deeper into the case, that leaves little or no air space between the powder and the base of the bullet. Sometimes this raises pressure. When bullets are seated farther out to touch the rifling, that leaves more air space between the powder and the base of the bullet, which "some times" lowers pressure. But also, when bullets are seated farther out to touch the rifling, there is no freebore, which can "some times" raise pressures. I have found no hard and fast rule.

I chronograph every bullet I shoot, whether reduced loads, or full loads, and monitor for any signs of pressure. When I decide to test a load by seating the bullet deeper into the case, or farther out, I always reduce my powder charge by 5%, and carefully work my way back up.

I have found reloading for double rifles to be quite fascinating and much more complex than reloading for single barrel rifles. There seem to be no definitive rules.

Uneven throat wear is also a factor in seating depth because sometimes there is a difference between the two barrels in their relationship of the bullet's travel before engaging the rifling. This variable occurs more often with "vintage" doubles. That is, the "second" barrel's throat shows less wear from being shot less. I first ran into this condition with my 1897 Lefaucheux 8mm Lebel double rifle. The second barrel consistently shot higher velocity than the first, and did not regulate very well. Chamber casts showed more wear and a deeper throat in the first barrel. Only after I re-throated both barrels to match, did the velocities also match, and the rifle came back into regulation.

Reloading for double rifles can be a real mystery. Graham Wright wrote in his book something like this - If you do "this", "this" will happen - but not always, sometimes the "opposite" will happen.

Like I said, Its a mystery.

Buck


" .... you never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early .... "

How to Hunt Wisconsin Whitetail Deer with a Cannon

How to Hunt Feral Cats with a Mortar
 
Posts: 2139 | Location: Whitetail Country - Wisconsin | Registered: 28 September 2013Reply With Quote
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Picture of Bill73
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Buck,
Thanks for your answer,you have an immense amount of knowledge on the subject,we all know why eh? all those wonderful DR's that you have commissioned beer,I have only shot recent manufacture guns,I shoot full house loads but do reload for smaller game with lighter bullets,but still at regulation velocity,killed a lot of pigs & warties with a 400 gr outta my 470,it is fun to reload,for Africa,I prefer no airspace or minimal air space,safe distance from the rifling & a tough bullet for game,I can see how the vintage rifles are a whole different ball game,re-throating worn throats is a very useful bit of information,thank you.


DRSS
 
Posts: 2277 | Location: MI | Registered: 20 March 2007Reply With Quote
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