Men,

I've had it suggested to me that a vintage U.K.

built DR ought NOT to be fired too much. And if

I want to shoot a lot I'd better go with a 1970's

Austrian rifle or a new German rifle like say

www.ziegenhahn.com or French www.demas.fr [ now

under www.verney-carron.com ] or American, OWEN

& SEARCY. But how much is too much for the "Olde"

English soldiers? Say I can get out to shoot 2 days

per week. Can I load up and shoot 20 rounds for each

range visit? How about 30, 40 or 50 rounds on any

given day, say within a 2 - 4 hour interval, and

doing this two times per week? Thanks for all replies

Jack
I have shot my British 450 No2 between 3000 and 3500 times.
I can not tell that it is any looser.

I have shot my British 450/400 about 1500 times.

My 9,3x74R Chapuis has been shot around 200 to 2500 times.

The above figures are baised on the number of Federal 215 primers I have used since I got the guns.

I do not worry about it. If the gun gets loose I will have it refaced.

If I live long enough to wear out a set of bbls I will have new ones made.

100 rounds per week? That is 5000 rounds per year. I don't think your gun is going to last 100 years at that rate.

Some newer made Brit guns have been coming off face after 250 rounds. Tony's gun that is still tight after the 3000 round he put through it is an exception.

I have decided not to shoot my Austrian .500 much because I want it to last, and it is lightly built.

I fired over 400 rounds through my 450/400 getting ready for my hunt last year with no problems, and it is a Rodda, not one of the "name" guns. God knows how many rounds have been through her, but the right barrel is .412 to the lefts .411. I expect she will outlast me, and putting one back on face is not that big of a deal.

Atkinson has put god knows how many rounds through his Searcy .470 and has yet to confide in me that there have been any mishaps, misfires, or, misgivings...


...JACK...Buy Dirk's .470 that he's offering on this site's classifdes and shoot to your heart's contentment...That rifle ain't gonna give you any trouble.

JW

quote:

...JACK...Buy Dirk's .470 that he's offering on
this site's classifdes and shoot to your heart's contentment
...That rifle ain't gonna give you any trouble. JW

Jeff Wemmer

Jeff,

That rifle has No MORE TROUBLE LEFT IN IT! It's burned it's

"trouble quotient" out on DIRK!

Jack:

There was a well known BSer promoting that line here a year or two ago. He maintained that the old British rifles needed to be "tightened up" every 300-500 rounds, and that's ridiculous.

When I asked J. J. that question some years ago, he said a good quality British rifle, properly lubricated and fired with correct pressure ammo, should stay on face until the barrels were shot out. Over the years, I've handled a fair number of mid-grade pre-war, fixed pin British boxlocks that were shot out, but still tight on the face with no evidence of ever having been rejointed. Keep in mind that Tony's .450, a typical fixed pin boxlock, was over 90 years old when he got it, with who knows how many rounds already down the tubes, and he's put 3,500 rounds through it since then. When I handled it last August, it was still tight as a rat trap. If anything, the newer guns come off face faster than the old, in my observation. In any case, with a decent quality gun, proper ammunition and care, we're talking about thousands of rounds here minimum, not hundreds.

That isn't really the issue though. Putting one back on face isn't usually a big deal, and a good quality rifle should stay on face for the duration. The issue with high volume shooting with any double rifle, new or old, is bore wear. This is where the double differs from a single barrel rifle. Re-barreling a double rifle is infinitely more expensive than just slapping a new barrel on an M70 and, in many cases, will cost more than the gun is worth. They're big game rifles, not target or prairie dog rifles. I shoot them as much as I want, but I don't treat them like .22s either. A few hundred rounds a year is all that is needed.
------------------------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

Well put Mark, it's just so much SHEAR FUN to SHOOT THEM!

And I do look forward to introducing many other guys, and their girls,

to these treasures. Hence 1000 rounds per year is a number I'm tossing
out for the crew to mill over.

Mark,

I would agree that a properly fitted and finished DR, no matter what era it is from should stay on face indefinately (Within reason).

I've not personally seen a DR that was off the face ,but have seen more thn my share of shotguns that are...My guess that heating-up a gun of any type will cause this to become a problem....Shotguns can get shot in excess of 1k rounds a day and get too hot to hold at times - that has to have negative effects on the metals of said guns....DRs of course will most likely never see that number of rounds throught their entire lifespan.

When we shoot tactical matches we see most failures / malfunctions after several hundred rounds fired consecutively....Not the same type of platform, but we have learned that overheating is a definate "accelerator" in the wear of any firearm.

Also, things such as surface corosion from storage, etc. can lead to this happening...I'd bet the older guns that are off are likely victims of this "oxidation" decay more than shooting.

Think?

JW

quote:

Originally posted by BigFiveJack:

Hence 1000 rounds per year is a number I'm tossing

1. Be careful of admitting to tossing, or the British crowd may call you a 'tosser'.

2. 1000 rounds per year x 10 years = 10,000 by which time your rifle will definitely be worn out. But probably earlier than that.

The most rounds I have heard of being fired through a double was 7000 rounds. A guy in California fired that many rounds through his Searcy before someone came along and insisted on buying it. So the guy commissioned another Searcy and kept shooting. Most of the shooting was done at a 1/2 inch thick steel plate. After a few thousand rounds, the steel crystallized and broke apart so he had to buy a new steel plate.

Jack,

Interesting question. As you know doubles are built different than bolt guns. With that said for me a 308 bolt gun (1000 yard Palma target rifle) is shot out at about 2500-3000 rounds. In a hunting gun around 10K rounds. Throat wear is noticable with the naked eye at about 3000 rounds. Keep in mind this is a small bore.

With a double there are several factors to consider. Bore diameter being one and hinge pin, hook wear. The larger the bore the long its going to last. Hinge pins and other pivot points are a different matter. Ammo pressure, thrust, etc will make a difference. Ask me this question a year after I get my Siace which should be at the end of July.

My plan is to shoot it as MUCH as I possibly can over the next year. And Im on a mission. It will be nothing to shoot 2-300 rounds in a weekend. Maybe more I have the brass. When I go shooting I shoot a lot. Burned out barrels are the best as I know I have gotten my moneys worth. I would wager that the Siace will go 20K rounds or more and I damm sure plan on finding out. Im stocking up on brass and bullets now so we will see.

500Grains,

10,000 rounds true, but it's 5,000 per barrel...

Also, I'm afraid to ask what that word means to the folks

of "Mery Olde England". If crude, PM it to me instead of

posting it here where the teen agers might see it. God

knows they find enough vulgar junk on their own without

we, their fathers, providing it...


Corbin,

We'll all appreciate a report on the SIACE, including

how well it stands up to the heavy use. Go for it!

As a point of interest the average life of a 308 Sniper Rifle barrel is @5000 rounds.

Many people rebarrel at 4000 so they do not have any worries.

I had a Steyr SSG that shot real good to @ 7000 rounds. Between there and 10,000 it was not reliable for a cold clean bbl shot.

After 7000 rounds I kept shooting the gun as a test.

After cleaning it would take 5 rounds or so until it would settle down, but the groups would have an occasional flyer.

In its prime it shot many 300 yard 3 shot groups you could cover with an American 5 cent piece.

Good Hammer Forged and good Cut Rifled barrels seem to last a bit longer than the others.

quote:

I have decided not to shoot my Austrian .500 much because I want it to last, and it is lightly built.

Dan, what's the use of having a "light" proper weight double if you don't like to shoot it?

Rusty,

I do not own a double for plinking. I bought it for the purpose of shooting elephants at 10 yards or less. Although I would be delighted to wear out a double in that activity, it's not likely to happen.

I don't run my truck wide open because I would like it to last.

I don't ski over rocks because I would like my skis to last.

And I don't plink with my Hambrusch because I want it to last. That does not mean I fail to engage in a reasonable amount of practice, however.

Jack:
Why don't you investigate some of the 12 bore slug guns built in a double rifle configuration if you plan to shoot that much. Much cheaper to shoot and still great fun. I believe Chapuis makes a very nice one.
A 450/400 3 1/4 for less than $10K just popped up on Champlins site. It's over 10 pounds but it is an interesting gun.
LJS

Dan,
I'm sorry you don't own a double for plinking. I enjoy shooting mine as much as I can.

I suppose that a lightly built double would be cause for concern if you were to shoot it alot.

Thanks for the explaination!

There is a clear division here between those who use their rifles for the purpose for which they are best suited and for which they were built and those who...don't.

May explain the weight/recoil division as well.

JPK

Some of the old time African professionals before WWI shot the heck out of their British nitro doubles without their going loose ... the ivory hunters put more ammo through big bore rifles than anyone else except perhaps American buffalo hunters after the Civil War - and our guys were shooting single barrel black powder.

quote:

Originally posted by vigillinus:
Some of the old time African professionals before WWI shot the heck out of their British nitro doubles without their going loose ...

I think it is true that some of those guys shot the heck out of their double rifles, but I don't think we can conclude that they did not shoot them loose. I have seen a lot of well-used vintage DRs that were shot loose and were pretty much crapped out.

I imagine shooting reduced loads would save on the wear and tear - how much I don't know.

You can also get a SXS shotgun and find a sporting clays range. The shotgun won't be as heavy as a double rifle, but it will still give you the feel and sight picture.

There are a couple of stations on the sporting clays courses that would be pretty good - one is the "running rabbit" where they skip a clay bouncing along the ground. The other is one that zips a clay about 3 feet off the ground at 50 mph or so.

What's good is that it allows you to get in the grove on swinging with the target and gives you instant feedback on the shot. And at shotgun shell prices versus Nitro prices.

Be prepared for some strange looks - most of the guys who shoot sporting clays use O/U's.

I have yet to find or talk my club into a "charging clay station".

Hey Jim!

I routinely smak clays with my SxS's

Last season shot a course and got a 76 with an old Win 21...top score was 88...I ain't no "Masters class" shooter, but the response I got from shooting in the top 10 was really worth not winning!!!

JW

I also shoot my SxS's at sporting clays and five stand. Strange lookks at the outset, envious looks at the end (hopefully!).

I am a fan of using the SxS shotgun as a training tool for a DR. Many wil poo poo the idea but the fit should be the same and the function is the same. Static shooting only teaches you so much, the dynamic shotgun sports are equally important, imo.

JPK

I think shooting/hunting with a SXS shotgun is a great idea, especially if it had 2 triggers.

I shot my doubles a lot when I first got them to fully acclimate myself to them.

I found that I really like them, and began using them for most of my hunting, even for game and situations that were not usually "double rifle territory". Like caribou, spot and stalk black bear, turkey, coyotes, all my deer and wild pig hunting.

I shot my doubles quite a bit, and they seem none the worse for wear.

Many people are of the opinion that they are only suitabel for DG up close.

I have "discovered" that double rifles are the best general purpose hunting rifle on the planet, for most game most of the time.

When shots are at longer range then an accurate bolt or single shot is the answer.
On horseback or a bad weather hunt, if you do not want to risk an expensive double rifle them choose something else.

It is hard to beat the 2 quick shots from a double for most hunting.

AMEN!

How about a Blaser double? I understand that because they have a different locking system, that they can stand up to the same amount of punishment as a bolt action rifle.

Dave

Dave
Blaser uses the same action design in their light weight K 95 singlre shot, which they offer in several magnum calibers including 300 Weatherby.

The Blaser double just may be the strongest actioned double ever made.

I wouldn't go there!

JW

N E 450 No2, I think you and I are the only guys on this Blaser train. There is a .470 Luxus on GunsAmerica that is really beautiful. I would really like to give one a try.

I am curious. I think you said that your friend had a .375 H&H Blaser S2. Has he ever had any extraction problems?

Dave

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Bush:
N E 450 No2, I think you and I are the only guys on this Blaser train. There is a .470 Luxus on GunsAmerica that is really beautiful. I would really like to give one a try.

I am curious. I think you said that your friend had a .375 H&H Blaser S2. Has he ever had any extraction problems?

Dave

I can think of a lot of adjectives to describe a Blazer double rifle, but "beautiful" didn't come to mind!

MacD37....That's harsh brother, harsh!

Mac
Beauty is as Beauty does.

Dave
As far as I know he has not had any problems with his 375 H&H Blaser double or his extra bbls in 30-06.

Both bbls shoot very good at 100 yards.

Mac, I don't know if you belong to Guns America but if you do, take a look at this Blaser .470:

http://www.gunsamerica.com/classifieds/none/_976847705.aspx

I really DO think it is really a nice looking gun and the wood is fantastic.

Dave

De gustibus et coloribus non est disputandum (one musn't quarrel about tastes and colours)

I also like the looks of the Blasers and they indeed do have fantastic wood. My standard model handles fantasticly and is very accurate. The Safari model however, is a lot heavier than the standard model.

Nitehawk, I thought that the .470 Blaser S2 that I referred to above would sit on the Guns America site forever. I thought about letting it sit there for six months or so and then making the guy and offer. Guess what? It must have sold. The pictures are still there but it it no longer listed. I REALLY did think it was a beautiful gun.

I think it is kinda curious that it apparently sold in short order and an unfired Merkel .500 NE that Hendershots has listed for only $9,000 is still sitting there. Maybe guys are warming up to thin non-tradional kind of double.

Mac, I was wondering. Did you take a look at it? What did you think?

Dave