Finally got out to the range again. Think I have found the load I'm going to send to Aaron. For those fellow middle-aged guys who don't remember, this is a non-muzzle ground Sabatti whose regulation wasn't finished. It will easily shoot factory ammo and many handloads into 2-3" groups at 50 yds, but the barrels are crossing at that distance.

I am using RL-17. NOTE: all these loads crossed at 50 yds. The fastest load: 96 grains, gave me 2252 fps (ES 20) with the bottom group in the pic. Quickload says I can get to 2361 fps without exceeding 45,000 PSI, and the groups sizes do seem to be tightening, but:

1. The recoil is starting to get uncomfortable (24" barrels, 9.75 lbs)

2. There is not a soft point application on this planet where a 450 grain TSX at 2250 fps would not work well

3. Quickload is an just an estimate. Yes, I can fine tune QL to a higher degree than the data from a loading manual, but it is still just an estimate. QL tells me that 96 grains of RL 17 and a 450 TSX will yield 2361 fps at 43,515 psi. In my rifle, 96 grains gives me 2252 fps. The $64,000 question is does that mean 96 grains = 43,515; or does it mean 2361 fps = 43,515? I tend to think the latter. QL says 2250 fps with RL-17 and a 450 TTSX = 37,962 PSI

There are obviously no pressure signs of any kind, and I would not expect any at the pressures a doubles operates at. RL-17 is a temp resistant powder, and the Sabatti is a VERY strong action made of chrome-moly steel and it locks up tight. Regardless. I see no need to push it.

Just some random thoughts,

1,your gun seems to shoot good,but it crosses?

this does not necessarily mean that your gun is not regulated,it is my understanding that quite a few european gunmakers regulate them this way,but here in the USA we like them not to cross,I have had first hand experience of this with a brand new rifle.your 96 gr load is shooting real well,what I would like to see is your best load @ 100 yrds,if the grouping is good,the crossing does not matter.

2,The only elephant that I have shot so far was with my O/U 458 LOTT CZ STOPPER DR,A 450GR NF FNS @ 2250,so I have no doubt that your load of a 450 GR TSX is a good load for all applications,well maybe I would switch to a FNS for elephant.

3,You are starting to feel recoil with the 96 gr load,well add a recoil reducer to the buttstock & see if it helps,your gun likes the higher speed,you are shooting off a rest,try shooting offhand & see how it feels,one other thing to mention,the added weight might change regulation & you would have to play some more with the loads,I have had an instance where I had to speed my loads up just a little.

4,I think you are right about 2361 fps=43,515 psi,even at that that psi I would not be worried in a modern gun,also do not forget temperature will effect your loads,same loads at different temps will give you different results,I develop my loads to match temps where I am going to hunt.

These are random thoughts based on my real life experience,not meant to start any arguments.

quote:

Originally posted by INTJ:
I can get to 2361 fps without exceeding 45,000 PSI, and the groups sizes do seem to be tightening.

Point of fact, the faster you push them the MORE they will cross, not tighten towards parallel.

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

quote:

Originally posted by INTJ:
I can get to 2361 fps without exceeding 45,000 PSI, and the groups sizes do seem to be tightening.

Point of fact, the faster you push them the MORE they will cross, not tighten towards parallel.

Exactly, and that is why it needs re-regulating.

Try some IMR 4831. Start at 86 grains then go up 2 grains at a time and watch how the bullets start coming together. Always a good idea to start on the low side so you can see what is happening as the speed increases.
Also suggest you use two targets, side by side. That way you can fire quickly and don't need to look through the spotting scope to take notes of where the bullets hit.

If you want to stick with RL17 drop down 6 grains and see what happens.

The crossing wouldn't bother me if I were still able to shoot 4 inch groups at 100 yards. How much better do you need in the 450 NE?

quote:

Originally posted by Bill73:
Just some random thoughts,

1,your gun seems to shoot good,but it crosses?

this does not necessarily mean that your gun is not regulated,it is my understanding that quite a few european gunmakers regulate them this way,but here in the USA we like them not to cross,I have had first hand experience of this with a brand new rifle.your 96 gr load is shooting real well,what I would like to see is your best load @ 100 yrds,if the grouping is good,the crossing does not matter.

2,The only elephant that I have shot so far was with my O/U 458 LOTT CZ STOPPER DR,A 450GR NF FNS @ 2250,so I have no doubt that your load of a 450 GR TSX is a good load for all applications,well maybe I would switch to a FNS for elephant.

3,You are starting to feel recoil with the 96 gr load,well add a recoil reducer to the buttstock & see if it helps,your gun likes the higher speed,you are shooting off a rest,try shooting offhand & see how it feels,one other thing to mention,the added weight might change regulation & you would have to play some more with the loads,I have had an instance where I had to speed my loads up just a little.

4,I think you are right about 2361 fps=43,515 psi,even at that that psi I would not be worried in a modern gun,also do not forget temperature will effect your loads,same loads at different temps will give you different results,I develop my loads to match temps where I am going to hunt.

These are random thoughts based on my real life experience,not meant to start any arguments.

Good points. My bench is a standing bench, which allows me to shoot in an pretty much a standing offhand position.

I am not sure about your pressure logic.

If your rifle is giving less velocity (2252 fps) than QL estimate for 96 gr of Re17, that same load could give more than 2361 fps in some other rifle. The pressure generated is specific to the rifle and the components in the load used.

I am not DR expert. But having followed Sam's various posts & reading a lot on DRs - including Graeme Wright's book, I would have thought that a change in powder could potentially solve your crossing issue.

I would suggest that you contact Sam.