Does anyone know of someone in the USA that can rebore and rifle a double, and do it properly?

I have had poor luck with some single barrel rifles, and don't want to have anything else ruined.

I need this to be done of best quality work and not just done cheaply. I also want to send directly to the shop, and not have it go through some middleman.

Thanks,
Mark

http://www.deltagunshop.com/

call Jim Dubbel

Fraught with hazard.

Before even thinking about it one would have to know the construction of the rifle regards chopper lump or monobloc, barrel thicknesses, caliber from which you wish to rebore to what, etc.

And why?

What's wrong with it as it is?

Most times a rebarrel would be better. A serious undertaking in any case, and only for an expert.

It will have to be re-regulated and re-sighted no matter what.

Cliff La Bounty used to do this. Don't know if he's still in business, but I believe he turned over his shop to someone. Don't know if successor is as skilled as Cliff. Bob

AAh, Dubell is Cliff's successor. Bob

quote:

Originally posted by bobc:
AAh, Dubell is Cliff's successor. Bob

Yes, and he has the only machine in the US to rebore a double rifle.

Peter Hambrusch is the only other person I've found to rebore a double.

quote:

Originally posted by Mark Baker:
Does anyone know of someone in the USA that can rebore and rifle a double, and do it properly?

I have had poor luck with some single barrel rifles, and don't want to have anything else ruined.

I need this to be done of best quality work and not just done cheaply. I also want to send directly to the shop, and not have it go through some middleman.

Thanks,
Mark

You've got to be careful that you have enough meat left in the barrels for the re-bore in question. If it's a British or European gun, I strongly suggest that you send it back across the pond for proper re-proof once it's done.

In England, Paul Roberts, former owner of Rigby, has been re-boring shot out doubles for years. My understanding is that much of his re-boring work was actually done here in the US by Cliff LaBounty. I remember shooting one that LaBounty had done for Rigby years ago, and it shot well. IIRC, LaBounty has since sold that business to Jim Dubell. I'd give him a call.

Alternatively, you might call Paul Roberts and see who he suggests. You can google J. Roberts & Son, Gunmakers, UK for contact information.
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"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
Before even thinking about it one would have to know the construction of the rifle regards chopper lump or monobloc

Ron:

The barrels of a double are re-bored without separating them, so the type of barrel jointing doesn't matter. Cliff built a special machine to do this which Jim Dubell now has, hence new_guy's comment about it being the only one in the US that can do it. My understanding is that's correct.

Barrel wall thickness is critical because the barrels of DRs are thin by definition. I've handled a number of .303 doubles that had been re-bored, rechambered, and re-proved to 9.3X74R. I wouldn't have thought there would have been enough wall thickness left to make it feasable, but it worked. It just depends on the gun. That's why I'm not interested in yankin' the triggers of a re-bored DR unless it has been properly re-proved.

If you figure a total cost for re-boring, re-proof and re-regulation of, say, $2,500 to $3,000, that's cheaper than sleeving and way, way cheaper than new barrels.
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"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

Thanks 400NE.
I new that would smoke you out.
So the barrels only have to be separated enough to re-regulate after they are rebored enbloc.

I forgot the re-proof part. I am now re-proofed myself.

Seems like this would be for salvaging worn out bores on a small/medium bore to slightly less small bore. And hopefully the rest of the rifle was sound and worth the large investment to change caliber.

Do you know of any other successful reboring AND re-proof of a double to larger calibers than .303 to 9.3?

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
Do you know of any other successful reboring AND re-proof of a double to larger calibers than .303 to 9.3?

Sure. Champlin just sold a Rigby .470 that was re-bored from .450 and re-proved in London. I've seen a number of .450s re-bored and re-proved to something in the .470 group. Also a few .470 group doubles re-bored and re-proved to .500.

One of the large retailers currently has a old British double that I'm told has original .400/.360 proof marks on it that has been re-bored to .416 Rigby. Dumb.
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"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

From a rimmed to a rimless or belted case would be dumb indeed.

You guys are a bad influence. Now I am thinking of getting a .375 H&H Merkel and having it rebored to 450/395 NE 3.25"

Second the recommendation of Paul Roberts, who probably knows as much about barreling and regulation of DR's as anyone alive. For a large bore example, I know he bought some rifles from India in light 400 in the days when brass wasn't available and refurbished them and re-bored to 45/70 (the original 405 gr load). Low pressure rounds both, the conversion worked very well. One (a Purdey with added engraving by Ken Hunt) sold at Christies last December.

Thanks all for the info.

Yes I do know a thing or two about wall thickness and regulation. The rifle would indeed need to be regulated for the new cartridge and the load for it.

Some rebore jobs may be of custom caliber and cartridge to just bump up the diameter of a shot out bore. That isn't a bad thing, as I always like to save original barrels.

What I deal in is mostly British Black powder express rifles and many have enough "meat" to rebore. Lining would also be an option.


Thanks again

Mark

Paul Roberts told me in 199 that he was having Brit doubles in .350 No. 2 and .400-.350 rebored to 9.3x74R for German customers for boar hunting. Roberts sent them to Cliff LaBounty and they were then sent back to Roberts for regulation, reproofing, new calibre markings and refinishing. At that time the total cost was about 5g and LaBounty would do the rebore alone for about 1g. I had an article in Double Gun Journal Autumn 1999 mentioning this - I decided not to rebore my Rigby .350 No. 2 which still had excellent bores.

I remember dropping by Rigby back in the early '90s. Paul showed me a half dozen 9.3X74Rs that had either been rechambered from .400/.360 or rechambered and re-bored from .400/.350 or .350 No. 2. The re-bores had been done by LaBounty. Apparently the Germans are willing to pay big money for nice pre-war British doubles in 9.3, which of course the British didn't make. I just wish he would stop converting the ones that still have nice bores. He does it either way.
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"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

Then the hazard is to one's wallet mainly, and the cost includes the boredom waiting several years for it to get done?

quote:

Originally posted by Mark Baker:
Does anyone know of someone in the USA that can rebore and rifle a double, and do it properly?

I have had poor luck with some single barrel rifles, and don't want to have anything else ruined.

I need this to be done of best quality work and not just done cheaply. I also want to send directly to the shop, and not have it go through some middleman.

Thanks,
Mark

Mark
I know Jon Thomas of Gun Sport, LTD. had a double rifle that was originally 303 and had it re bored in 375 flanged. I don’t remeber who did the work but you could check with him and see who it was. I do remeber talking to the new owner who was pleased at how it shot.
Bill

LaBounty was first approached by Holland and Holland about reboring doubles; they had heard about him and were looking for another vendor. They sent him a barrel set to try and he sent it back with his bill for $450.00. At the time he charged $165 for a regular rebore (chambered).

He didn't hear from Holland's for weeks and assumed they didn't like the job. One day a Holland's rep called from the blue and said they were very pleased with the work but that Cliff simply must do something about his prices.

Cliff took that to mean it was too high and said he couldn't do it any cheaper. The gentleman on the other send said "Oh no chap, you must raise your prices. Regardless of the quality, which is high, our clients simply won't respect a job charged so cheaply". So he doubled his price and ended up so buried in double rifle rebores he almost quit doing single barrel jobs.

Anyway, that's the story he told me and I'm stickin' to it.

O.K., then if one ends up paying $5000 and waiting 3 tears for the entire rebore-regulation-proofing-refinishing, then it would have to be a good thing?

Tigertate, I believe you, it makes perfect sense!

Gentlemen,

Sorry for this late post but I wanted to say we recently had a 28" 1/2 oct bbl. with integeral rib in 8.15x46r bebored to 9.3x62 by
deltagunshop. We delt with Mr. Allen Baker and couldn't be more pleased. Complete turnaround was less than two weeks and the work was perfect, absolutely flawless. He can be contacted at allen@deltagunshop.com

No re-regulation nor re-proof?

Maybe none is required, maybe you got lucky and it shoots well enough without re-regulation.

However, someone like 400 Nitro Express will not be fooled long by the lack of re-proofing with the required additional stamps.

As I said, fraught with hazard, mostly financial.

Wonder what Dr. Lewiswig Von Drake of Western Kentucky would say it is worth?

My turn!

I have been investigating this same subject and have concluded the following:

1) Make sure you rifle has suitable "metal" for the job.
2) Make damn sure that you aren't trashing up the originality (read losing $$) of the rifle you plan to re-do.
3) I agree that having the rifle re-proofed in UK / Eur is a definate must. When it comes time to move a non-re-proofed rifle it will be a tough sell - AND most DR buyers are pretty vell versed on this subject and won't touch a unproofed piece.
4) Re-regulation will most likely be a necessity if you are planning on using commercial off the shelf ammo. You might be able to "tweek" handloads to get the point of impact you desire - maybe.
5) recommend only Nitro to Nitro projects...BPE guns can be subject to frame failure if you don't thoroughly investigate the gun's mechanicals....Be Reeeeal careful here. I have heard of frames cracking at the base of the breechface - Thus, a total loss was incurred.
6) Prepare to re-do / replace flip-up sights as well.

Conclusion:

Rebore job - 1000-1500 are the numbers that have been thrown my way.

Re-regulation: Anywhere from 500-1000, plus the expense of factory ammo - maybe as many as 100 rounds! $$??

Re-proofing: ?? But bet you can't do it for less than 2K with the cost of shipping, proofing and insurance.

Sights: $$? Say 2-300 for the actual sights and the same in labor to get them on target...600 more bucks.

OK, so, that adds up to a low-ball amount of around 4K....Cheaper than barrels for sure, but no walk in the park either when you consider the time and effort necessary to get it right.

A lot to consider,eh!

JW

J. J. does re-regulating for $600 and is a master at it. I believe re-proof can be done much cheaper than that.
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"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

Yes he is.....But, I'll bet you this. JJ ain't going to pay YOUR ammo bill to regulate your gun. the 600 will cover the process, but you will most likely have to send him a supply of the ammo you want to use for the job. Take a .470 for example. Say he gets it in under 20 rounds - cha-ching! That's the 600 plus the ammo @ roughly 300 a box. Yes less if you are handloading, but still at least the 600. Add in insurasnce there and back...You're getting to the magic 1K again.

Reproofing: remember that ALL guns MUST be reproofed in the WHITE. So, here we go again. By the time you PROPERLY insure your weapon, get it done, re-blacked and back home, I'll guarantee you can't do if for very much under 2K without doing something stupid like not insuring everything for "replacement" value.

Not trying to be a smartass here, but trying to share some valuable experience when it comes to getting high-grade guns worked on - that's all.

And, If I recall that's the essence of this forum....to share valuable experience with others.

JW

quote:

Originally posted by Jeff Wemmer:
Yes he is.....But, I'll bet you this. JJ ain't going to pay YOUR ammo bill to regulate your gun. the 600 will cover the process, but you will most likely have to send him a supply of the ammo you want to use for the job. Take a .470 for example. Say he gets it in under 20 rounds - cha-ching! That's the 600 plus the ammo @ roughly 300 a box. Yes less if you are handloading, but still at least the 600. Add in insurasnce there and back...You're getting to the magic 1K again.

J. J. has reregulated one for me, I know what is involved. Why anyone would reregulate a DR with factory ammo is beyond me. Nobody I know uses factory ammo in big bore doubles, and it should be reregulated with what will actually be used.

quote:

Reproofing: remember that ALL guns MUST be reproofed in the WHITE.

Not true. While new built guns are ususally proved as barreled actions "in the white" in the UK (no sense wasting the expense of finishing a gun that is going to fail proof), the rules of proof DO NOT require the weapon to be "in the white". Proof of completely finished guns is done in the UK all the time, especially so when re-proving. To be accepted for proof, the barrels must be "well struck" - smooth and free from distortions, ripples, etc. This is required so that if bulging, riveling, etc., occur during proof firing, the inspector can readily see it. This is just as easily done with black barrels as with white.

In the event that the barrels have been damaged by improper refinishing - polished with a power polishing wheel (usually by an American "gunsmith"), instead of by hand, then yeah, they'll probably have to be restruck to be accepted for proof. Of course, nobody would buy a gun like that unless the price was adjusted accordingly anyway.

quote:

So, here we go again. By the time you PROPERLY insure your weapon, get it done, re-blacked and back home, I'll guarantee you can't do if for very much under 2K without doing something stupid like not insuring everything for "replacement" value.

Nah. The charge for re-proof is 45 pounds. Best way to handle transport is to hand it off to one of the dealers who travel to the British auctions several times a year and just have 'em drop it at the proof house and pick it up on the way home. For the kind of money you're talking about, you could cart it to England yourself and spend a few days making the rounds of the British gunmakers. Not a bad way of doing it, but needlessly expensive.
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"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

Awh-hell 400,

Give me a break here. You know that some of the best DRs are regulated with "Factory" ammo (read Federal, Kynoch) and that a lot of hard-core hunters / shooters use factory ammo all of the time and with great success.

Everybody has their own way of doing things.

I presented a scenario that gave this gentleman a realistic set of expectations that he might encounter should he go forward with getting his rifle re-bored and re-proofed. My comments were based on an experience I recently encountered in inquiring about the exact same thing that led to his posting this thread in the first place.

You obviously have more experience than I do in this arena.

Mark, keep a little extra cash on-hand as a fall-back should you need to do this in a conventional manner.


JW