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Do they work ok at night ? They must balance better and are slimmer than a bigger scope for a DR, but if I want also to use them at night with full moon, I will be able to see more or less ok or I must go for a bigger objective ? L | ||
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No experience with a 1-4x24 but have used a 1-4x30 trijicon and it worked well on a elephant hunt at night. However, a larger objective may be indicated if the rifle is to be used primarily for night hunting. ...I say that hunters go into Paradise when they die, and live in this world more joyfully than any other men. -Edward, duke of York ". . . when a man has shot an elephant his life is full." ~John Alfred Jordan "The budget should be balanced, the Treasury should be refilled, public debt should be reduced, the arrogance of officialdom should be tempered and controlled, and the assistance to foreign lands should be curtailed lest Rome become bankrupt. People must again learn to work, instead of living on public assistance." Cicero - 55 BC "The smallest minority on earth is the individual. Those who deny individual rights cannot claim to be defenders of minorities." - Ayn Rand Cogito ergo venor- KPete “It is not from the benevolence of the butcher, the brewer, or the baker, that we expect our dinner, but from their regard to their own self-interest. We address ourselves, not to their humanity but to their self-love, and never talk to them of our own necessities but of their advantages.” ― Adam Smith - “Wealth of Nations” | |||
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Resolution is measured by dividing the diameter of the objective lens by the power, so at lower power, a smaller obj lens, like the 24mm, will give the same resolution as a higher power scope with a larger obj lens. So, it depends on how much power you want. I use those scopes on DRs and single shots where I won't be needing higher power. In Germany, where they hunt at night, they do use large obj lens a lot. They say that anything over a 7 is wasted on human eyes anyway. So, with a obj lens of 24 and power of 3, you get 8. Same as a 50mm lens and a power of 6.25. Check all this out; I am going from memory, which is rapidly fading... | |||
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dpcd the "7" you mention is not the power, but a measurement of the exit puple in the scope! The human eye cannot process more the an exit puple of "7"! Having an objective lens that opens more than a "7" exit puple is wasted! Sometimes the problem is the amount of light generated by the illuminatewd reticle! The proper use of the illumination is full power in daylight, and turned down to minimum when used at night. The strong light on the reticle blanks out the ambient light coming through the lens, causeing one to think the scope doesn't gather enough light! ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith  | |||
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I personally believe the 1to 4X24 willnot let enough light thru. I want around 40mm objective lens and most definately a illuminated German #4 red dot. Turned on it lowest settinf Lorenzo it is unbeatable in my opinion. Mike | |||
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Thanks Gentlemen !!! I will look for a scope with a litter bigger objective. Thanks again L | |||
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For a scope I will be using at night I want at least 6 power and a 42mm Objective lens. A few days ago on my lease I shot a pig at night with my Heym Mod 26 B 30/30. I had a Leupold 4x Compact scope on it and I clould not see to shoot till I held my Surefire flashlight under the barrel. [Legal for pigs where I hunt. When I got home yesterday I mounted a Swarovski 1.5 to 6x42 with the illuminated Circle Dot reticle. I have used this scope in my 9,3x74R double and it works pretty good at night. You can always have 2 scopes sighted in for your double, a smaller one for day hunting and a larger one for night use. DOUBLE RIFLE SHOOTERS SOCIETY | |||
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Thanks for the info !! L | |||
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Yes, the Seven I referred to is the exit pupil diameter not the power of the scope. I use my Swarovski 1-4.5 and have no problems, but as someone stated, the reticle washout is the problem. That is why illuminated or tritium reticles are popular. | |||
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That 7 MM is "young eyes" If you are over 50, 5 MM is more likely.
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I got a old (inported back in the 60's)german made 6 power with a 50 or 55 mm front lens , a little larger than a 1" tube and a heavy single post retical, rail mount, made by kastle optic that is unbelieve able at night. Look at the nikon african in 30 mm 1x5 with a illuminated dot for around 900 bucks, it is a very clear and bright scope. JD DRSS 9.3X74 tika 512 9.3X74 SXS Merkel 140 in 470 Nitro | |||
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The only what makes sense on a DR is 1-X x24. A larger scope will change (ruin) the balance of the rifle. Especially when the Ojective is wider then the barrels. For fast shooting a real 1x is need and not a 1,1 or 1,5. Then the scope should have a smale eyepiece and a rail is also needed, so that the scope can exactly put on the right place, without looking where the elevation knobs are located. The smale eyepice gives more space between the opening lever and the scope without moving up the line of sight. (Objectives larger then 36mm increase the high of the line of sight. Industry standard in eyepices is at time 42mm, what is very large for DR bases on a smale or medium receiver. (That stands over). That was the reason why I was going for the Nickel scope. 36mm eyepiece with rail. See www.nickel-ag.com | |||
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Thanks for that. Which explains the "favourite" German dim light 'scope as being 8x56 I guess. | |||
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Gentlemen, the amount of light a scope gathers is not the only thing you have to worry about when mounting a scope on a double rifle! The first thing you need to do is find the lightest scope that will serve your purposes, And then not have a objective lens that is so large that the scope must be mounted too high. The weight thing also applies to your choice rings and bases as well. The heavier, and the higher you have to mount a scope exacerbates the negative effect on regulation! The double rifle depends on the “barrel time” and “muzzle flip” to regulate properly. A heavier a scope is the more it retards muzzle flip causing the barrels to shoot apart (wide & high) most times. Then you add the weight of heavy mounts which further retards the proper movement of the barrels under recoil, and you have a useless rifle with barrels that shoot north and south of each other! Todd Williams is having a problem with this as we speak. His rifle shoots perfectly to the regulation built into his rifle, but when the scope is attached the barrels shoot far apart at the same range and the rifle will simply not regulate with the scope attached! Most times when this happens to this degree hand loading a new load will usually not help. The scope must be changed to one that is far lighter, or removed all together. At this point the tiny Doctor optics, or a Burris fast fire can be utilized in it’s place! .......................................................  ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith | |||
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Mac D37, Thanks to your explanation regarding scopes/doubles I now understand why attaching a scope/mounts can alter the original regulation of the gun. | |||
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I guess I have been lucky, but I have not had a scope change the regulation on any of my doubles. I put a 1-4x24 S&B with illuminated reticle, on my 450/400. I have 2 scopes on my Chapuis 9,3x74R. A 2.5-8 Leupold, and a 1.5-6x42 Swarovski with illuminated reticle. On some of my drillings and double rifle drillings I have scopes with 56mm objectives. They rule the night... DOUBLE RIFLE SHOOTERS SOCIETY | |||
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Mac37, Trying to get a grasp on what you just tried to explain. In your opinion, if a rifle was regulated with a scope in place could that cause the barrels to cross when the scope was removed?. My biggest fear is when I die my wife will sell my guns for what I told her they cost. | |||
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This makes sense. While I have not taken the weight of rings and the scope into consideration, do you have any recomendations for what is light? I'm leaning towards a Leupold or Trijicon in the neighborhood of a 1.5 x 5 when I get my first double (either a V-C or Searcy in .450-400). | |||
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All the doubles I have scoped were regulated with iron sights, the scopes were installed later. Again I have have no problems. However, If I was ordering a new double rifle 40 cal or under, I would definately have it scoped, and regulated at the maker with the scope installed at 100 yards. IF and I say IF removing the scope effected the regulation, at distances under 100 yards, shooting with iron sights, most could probably not tell a difference. DOUBLE RIFLE SHOOTERS SOCIETY | |||
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Snowwolfe I sent you a PM so as to not muddy the waters here, however if you think it needs to be public you may post it here! ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith | |||
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Mac Are you comming to DSC? DOUBLE RIFLE SHOOTERS SOCIETY | |||
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Most do not have problems if the rifle is regulated with the irons by the maker, and the scope that is installed can be adjusted to POI in the center of a composite group of both barrels. If it shoots way off enough that lateral and horizonal adjustments will not fix, then either the scope is too heavy and/or too high, or both. The only fix for that comndition is a much lighter scope or an little Doctor Optics type sight, or use the rifle with the irons! Tony you have been very lucky with the scopes you have fitted your rifles with! Not everyone has that luck. Ask Todd Williams! His Chapuis shoots perfectly with the irons, but it has, so far, been all over the paper with the Trijicon 1.3-4. The last time I talked to him he was thinking about going to a Doctor or Burris fast fire to see if that helped! ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith | |||
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Yes I'll be there on Saturday, and if we don't go to 4K, I may be there Sunday as well! I'll send you a PM with my cell number! ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith | |||
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Have to admit I was shocked at how a little weight can change the regulation. My Baikal 30-06 was dailed in perfectly wearing an Ultradot. Couple of months ago removed it and replaced it with a Nikon 1x4 African, just a few ounces more. For the life of me I could not get it to shoot correctly until I removed the African and reinstalled the Ultradot. And this was with a rifle that I could change the regulation myself and also adjust the loads. Bolt rifles are boring after owning a double or two  My biggest fear is when I die my wife will sell my guns for what I told her they cost. | |||
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I'll jump in here if permitted. Yes, I am having a bit of a time getting my Chapuis 9.3X74R to regulate with the scope. I'm using a Trijicon 1.25X4 with pivot type quick disconnect mounts supplied with the rifle. The gun regulated easily without the scope. 286gr TSX and 286gr BBS. Put the scope on and the BBS shot fine, but the TSX crossed 8" at 50yrds and crossed off the target at 100yrds. Why the solids didn't change, I don't know!!! Went to the 255gr CEB Non-Cons. Tried several powders which had the right barrel hitting 1/2 inch right but the left barrel crossing 6" or so and 4 or 5 inches low. All these loads were less than 100% density without using a wad and it didn't seem to change the point of impact adding or subtracting powder. Changed to IMR 4831 which is giving 100%+ load density at 66 grains and I'm now making headway. Shot today at 64, 65, and 66 grains. The rifle shot 8" apart with 64 grains and 2175fps, 6" apart with 65 grains and 2220fps, and 4" apart with 66 grains and 2275fps. So I'm getting there. The load is compacted at this point but my data shows 69 grains as max so I'm hoping to get this thing sorted out with about 67.5 and around 2325fps or so. Took the scope off and shot the last 4 rounds just to check regulation again without the scope and they are perfect. So yes, in my rifle, the scope has been a bit difficult, but I think I've got it whipped now. If it goes haywire again at the end, I'm going to the Doctor scope next. | |||
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Also, thanks to Dave Bush, Mac, and Snowwolfe for their input and letting me bounce ideas off them in getting this thing sorted out. I was pretty frustrated at one point! Considered making life simple by going back to bolt trash for a day or two. Luckily, I pulled out of the flat spin just in time!  | |||
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I agree that you should put the lightest scope on your DR that you can; I use 1-4.5s, either Leupold or Swar, and the Leuupolds are by far the lightest. (And they gather plenty of light) My friend uses one of those heads up displays on his, I forget the make. It weighs nothing. I have had no re-regulation problems with them on a Krieg 400, a Sabatti 450, and a custom 45-70, but again, I use light scopes. | |||
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I've been a dedicated and happy Leupold user for decades. This past year I tried a Minox 1.5-8 x 32 on Recknagel swing-off mounts on my Verney-Carron 375Fl. I found the light-gathering ability to be exemplary with sharp, clear view across the range of magnification. In addtion, it had no effect on point of impact with any load I tried compared to the irons and the swing off mounts returned to zero every time. I can't yet say anything about longevity of this scope but a few hundred rounds of 375 Flanged haven't had a negative impact. NRA Lifer; DSC Lifer; SCI member; DRSS; AR member since November 9 2003 Don't Save the best for last, the smile for later or the "Thanks" for tomorow | |||
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I bought a 375 flanged within the past year or so and just replaced the Leupold 1.5-5 with a 1-4 trijicon. Had claw mounts so I was stuck using a scope very similar in size to the Leupold. Both of these scopes are the same weight and almost the same length. The Leupold was a POS with all sorts of crap inside the tube that between shots would block the reticle and move around so you could not see it. Use to love Leupolds but anymore if it was made in the last 10 years or so they are nothing like they use to be. Mac | |||
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McKay, I would call Leupold and have them replace the scope. I've never had one fail including those I've bought in the last decade and put on my 378 - 460 WBYs, but clearly there is something wrong with the one you got. I'd send it back for their inspection and review of QC with the full expecation of a replacement or refund. NRA Lifer; DSC Lifer; SCI member; DRSS; AR member since November 9 2003 Don't Save the best for last, the smile for later or the "Thanks" for tomorow | |||
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I will then it will be up for sale..... Mac | |||
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I have a 1-4x20 nickel Marburg scope with straight tube and straight eyepiece, which I will mount on my ferlach combInation gun when I get round to getting a set of claws. Meanwhile it has been on the 22. It's light gathering ability is very good and only looses put slightly to zeiss 6x42. Would happily take a shot with either at a time when you are struggling with the naked eye. For use on big game, it would not be an issue, but shooting small game, it's heavy post does block out quite a bit of the target. | |||
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