I have shot a lot of different bolt action hunting rifles over the years from 223 to 416 Rem. I have also shot long range rigs like a 338-300 RUM; I competed in 1000 yd BR for a couple of years, even shot an AR15 in a couple Highpower matches. Never once have I seen a difference in POI with any of these rigs on the bench vs offhand, field rest, bipod, etc. As such, I was very skeptical when many of you double shooters told me I would have a POI shift if I shot from the bench vs offhand, and the answer was for me to do load development from a standing bench.

I have only been a double shooter for a year. I tried a sort of bench position that wasn't comfortable, and I even tried a Bull's Bag. With either of these shooting positions my rifle would shoot everything I loaded as well as factory ammo very high. Even after installing a taller front sight, the gun would still impact 8" high at 50 yds. I had to use a six o' clock hold to keep within a couple inches of the bull.

I was getting ready to take a wood rasp to the stock on my Sabatti 450 NE. (Yes, it is real Walnut, not Opti Wood or whatever they put on the smaller doubles.) Before I did that, I decided to try a standing bench.

Now I could not find one to buy anywhere. I couldn't find any plans. So I made my own. I stacked a Workmate on top of two 50 gal coolers to get the height, and clamped a couple of pieces of left over shelving to get the size and shape of the top.

I wound up with a top that measures 36" x 25" with a 12" x 15" cutout. I set the height at 53," though I can adjust up and down a little from that. I got a Caldwell soft front rest and a pair of outdoor chair cushions for padding. I need to add a shelf and custom make some pads.

Below are some pics. Yes, it did lower my POI at 50 yds by 6." I also shortened the pull of the rifle from 15.125" to 14.375," and while it fits me well I am not sure that would have lowered the POI. This bench makes shooting this rifle reasonably comfortable.

Of course, a set of shooting sticks works pretty well also. If that's not steady enough, a second set of sticks under the elbow works wonders.

I use a small collapsible scaffold...that reach me to chest-height....the rest I build up with sandbags, etc..

Makes it much more comfy to shoot heavy rifles..

Yes this is crap.You need a rest only to check your rifles accuracy and POI every once in a while.I am sure every range is equipped with a bench type rest-which is more solid than yours.

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:
Of course, a set of shooting sticks works pretty well also. If that's not steady enough, a second set of sticks under the elbow works wonders.

I guess that would work, though I wanted something very stable for load development. My rest is rock solid, comfortable, and easy to use.

Very nice! May have to try and build something similar. thanks

I'd be glad to give more construction details. However, I am not a carpenter and someone who knows what they are doing can do a better job. Mine is sturdy, functional, and light. It fits easily under the shell on the back of my truck. Folding metal legs would be better, and there are probably better ways to brace the legs. Including the front rest and pads I have around $100 into mine.

How does the rifle impact when shot off hand? Does it still shoot high?
Bill

Shooting high offhand is caused by 1-raising the rifle from the 6 o'clock position and overiding as the trigger is squeezed.
2-Not getting down low enough and having to much of the front sight post in the sight picture.
3-Bad sight picture caused by too much light reflecting off the target and back at you.

quote:

Originally posted by Bill Cooley:
How does the rifle impact when shot off hand? Does it still shoot high?
Bill

I haven't compared it side by side with offhand vs my standing bench. However, I am holding the rifle when on the standing bench almost exactly as I do when offhand. I am simply resting my left hand (the one holding the fore end) on the front sand bag and resting my elbows on the pads. The recoils the same way as it does when I shoot offhand. As I get further into load development I'll post more info on how it shoots.

quote:

Originally posted by afp:

quote:

Originally posted by Bill Cooley:
How does the rifle impact when shot off hand? Does it still shoot high?
Bill

I haven't compared it side by side with offhand vs my standing bench. However, I am holding the rifle when on the standing bench almost exactly as I do when offhand. I am simply resting my left hand (the one holding the fore end) on the front sand bag and resting my elbows on the pads. The recoils the same way as it does when I shoot offhand. As I get further into load development I'll post more info on how it shoots.

The double rifle is designed to be fired from a standing position, off hand. When you are measured for fit, they do not measure you sitting leaning into the test gun, but standing. Certainly that will change the measurement if done sitting, or standing. The other reason for the standing rest is it moderates the felt recoil to the same or close to the same as firing the rifle while standing the way the rifle is used in the field.
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quote:

Yes this is crap.You need a rest only to check your rifles accuracy and POI every once in a while.I am sure every range is equipped with a bench type rest-which is more solid than yours.

And I am sure everyone on this threads' thought process is more cogent/articulate/respectful/intelligent/interesting/not self-serving(if that can even be imagined)/balanced and more experienced than yours. You fraud.

Dutch

Yes Mac37.....felt recoil as about shooting offhand......this is the way the british gunmakers shoot and regulate double rifles and they know a thing or two about these rifles..

To clarify. The reason for MY standing rest is to provide a steady position for load development that allows me to hold the rifle as similar as possible to how I hold it when shooting from offhand. There will never be a true way to compare my standing rest to offhand because one cannot hold the rifle steady enough from an unsupported offhand position. One's natural movements when shooting from unsupported offhand will most certainly generate a greater shift in POI that going from MY standing bench to (if it were possible) a perfectly steady unsupported offhand.

With MY standing bench there is no leaning into the rifle or any kind of forced support. I constructed this bench so that if I were holding the rifle from unsupported standing offhand, and you slid the bench under my arms, my hands and elbows would be supported in the exact position I would be holding them. It doesn't get any better than that.

quote:

Originally posted by Pondoro:
Yes Mac37.....felt recoil as about shooting offhand......this is the way the british gunmakers shoot and regulate double rifles and they know a thing or two about these rifles..

Pondoro, that is absolutely true! The Britts all regulate with a standing bench! And it is true that they do this for two reasons #1 is it reduces the felt recoil, and #2 lets the rifle shoot more like it will in the field as long as the fore-end is held in the shooter’s hand with the hand resting on the bag and nothing to retard its side movement!

...................................................................

quote:

Originally posted by afp:
To clarify. The reason for MY standing rest is to provide a steady position for load development that allows me to hold the rifle as similar as possible to how I hold it when shooting from offhand. There will never be a true way to compare my standing rest to offhand because one cannot hold the rifle steady enough from an unsupported offhand position. One's natural movements when shooting from unsupported offhand will most certainly generate a greater shift in POI that going from MY standing bench to (if it were possible) a perfectly steady unsupported offhand.

With MY standing bench there is no leaning into the rifle or any kind of forced support. I constructed this bench so that if I were holding the rifle from unsupported standing offhand, and you slid the bench under my arms, my hands and elbows would be supported in the exact position I would be holding them. It doesn't get any better than that.

I would say you have a good method there with the standing rest for working out load development and checking the rifle's regulation. Don't listen to shootacow, he doesn't know about these things. Hell, listening to him would have you breaking out the files and ordering replacement parts for what you might have screwed up in the first place.

My comments on the sticks was only for benefit of being able to check the rifle should you find yourself needing to do so, but away from your new standing bench. Placing the second set of sticks under your grip hand elbow gives you a pretty solid rest as well.

Great post and a good setup. Thanks.

Will have to make something like this.

Best wishes, Chris

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:

quote:

Originally posted by Pondoro:
Yes Mac37.....felt recoil as about shooting offhand......this is the way the british gunmakers shoot and regulate double rifles and they know a thing or two about these rifles..

Pondoro, that is absolutely true! The Britts all regulate with a standing bench! And it is true that they do this for two reasons #1 is it reduces the felt recoil, and #2 lets the rifle shoot more like it will in the field as long as the fore-end is held in the shooter’s hand with the hand resting on the bag and nothing to retard its side movement!

...................................................................

How do you get on if shooting a double using a tree as a rest for the forearm/hand, fore-end held in the forehand - does this affect the POI?

quote:

Originally posted by Pondoro:
Yes Mac37.....felt recoil as about shooting offhand......this is the way the british gunmakers shoot and regulate double rifles and they know a thing or two about these rifles..

Yep, that's how H&H do it, at their range just outside London.
Spent a day watching them regulate a zillion rifles; felt sorry for the regulators' shoulders

quote:

Originally posted by eagle27:

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:

quote:

Originally posted by Pondoro:
Yes Mac37.....felt recoil as about shooting offhand......this is the way the british gunmakers shoot and regulate double rifles and they know a thing or two about these rifles..

Pondoro, that is absolutely true! The Britts all regulate with a standing bench! And it is true that they do this for two reasons #1 is it reduces the felt recoil, and #2 lets the rifle shoot more like it will in the field as long as the fore-end is held in the shooter’s hand with the hand resting on the bag and nothing to retard its side movement!

...................................................................

How do you get on if shooting a double using a tree as a rest for the forearm/hand, fore-end held in the forehand - does this affect the POI?

In field conditions the rest will most times not be as steady as a standing bench, but field rests are far steadier than off hand!

If I can't find a branch that is low enough to rest my wrist over it, I place my left arm against the trunk of the tree just back of the wrist, to steady my forearm. On sticks I rest my wrist on the sticks and hold the fore-end in my left hand (obviously I'm right handed).

Kneeling, with my elbow rested on my left knee, or sitting with elbows resting on each knee! Most times unless in very open country the sitting or kneeling is out.
Prone is not recommended with a very heavy recoiling double!

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

My comments on the sticks was only for benefit of being able to check the rifle should you find yourself needing to do so, but away from your new standing bench. Placing the second set of sticks under your grip hand elbow gives you a pretty solid rest as well.

Is this using three shooting sticks for each position or two per position?

Are those 2 x 2 pieces of lumber?

I love the simplicity, portability, and will build one myself!

Yes, cheap white wood I bought at Lowes. Would have preferred KD Doug Fir. However, the white wood 2x2s work fine, twists and all.

I use a 2x6 nailed to a telephone post that serves as my night light at the horse pens..I wrapped it with a thick towell..I place my left hand on the towell and the rifle in my hand, thats the important part of the scenario..It shoots to the same POI as off hand, just better groups..

Do it however you want, but I suggest that you do your homework off hand and/or over sticks with the forend on your hand and not resting the forend on the sticks themselves, if you use sticks..

At 50 to 75 yards I normally don't need sticks or any kind of a rest, at 100 maybe best, and beyond I like a rest, I am not opposed to a rest on a tree or whatever with the forend in my hand as always, and a gloved left hand isn't a bad idea, can save some hide...

Yes, the double is a little differnt breed of cat, probably because it recoils up and left and up and right depending on which trigger you pull. It's not crap its knowledge.

I like the rest you built, got the measurements and appreciate that. 53" tall and how tall are you is my question. Im going to make myself one, and the horses will appreciate that I'm sure. Any changes if you had to do it over would be appreciated.

I am 5' 10.5" tall. Shirt size is 16.5x34. There is some flexibility with a slightly to shorter size as you wind up with a taller front rest and your elbows are more vertical.

I made mine height adjustable by drilling 3"+ deep holes in each leg and gluing in a flange nut that will accept a 3/8x16 speed bolt--a 3" long threaded shank with 1" diameter flat head on it. I attached a rubber furniture pad to the head of each bolt and that works as an adjustable leg.

Thanks, much obliged....

Here is a picture of my leg adjusters, and both parts are available at Lowes. I added a rubber pad to the foot and a lock nut, though I am not sure a lock nut is really needed. I used a wing nut which causes a loss of about a half inch in lowering.

Went to Home Depot and for under 50 bucks built it in an afternoon. Will try it out this weekend.

Great photos really helped. Many thanks!

Cool! Post a pic when you get a chance.

quote:

Originally posted by afp:

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

My comments on the sticks was only for benefit of being able to check the rifle should you find yourself needing to do so, but away from your new standing bench. Placing the second set of sticks under your grip hand elbow gives you a pretty solid rest as well.

Is this using three shooting sticks for each position or two per position?

Just two sets of sticks. Example, I'm right handed like normal people are. One set of sticks as usual, supporting the left hand, a second set of sticks under my right elbow. It's a bit tricky to set up for each shot, but it gives you a very steady rest for checking zero at the range.

Is that a pair of two-stick shooting sticks or a pair of three-stick shooting sticks?

quote:

Originally posted by afp:
Is that a pair of two-stick shooting sticks or a pair of three-stick shooting sticks?

My approach was much simpler.
I screwed some 2x4s together and C-clamped them to a post at the range. I put a towel or sandbag on the rest, then leaned into it with my offhand just lightly resting on it.

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

quote:

Originally posted by afp:
Is that a pair of two-stick shooting sticks or a pair of three-stick shooting sticks?

Is it two tripod configurations or two bipod configurations?

I consider myself lucky. I shoot mine off the bench sitting but fairly upright with my hand under the forearm as prescribed resting on the sandbag. No issues or discernible POI shift when off sticks. If anything, my groups while sitting (and steadier) tend to be tighter.

Jorge,

It's the felt recoil off the bench that I find a pita. Sitting tall helps some, but not as much as a standing bench.

The one I use is a steel legged 3" laminated wood topped bench adjustable for height, either sitting or standing. It doesn't move and is a sturdy as a sitting bench. Not very light or portable, though it could be transported from place to place if required.

I have posted a detailed description and directions on making one previously.

JPK

I have to admit I was pleasantly surprised at how much more comfortable recoil was off May standing bench vs even a very upright sitting position.

Good day, gents.
My standing and seated rest was developed from a simple sketch. It is heavy and can't be moved. I'm fortunate that I have a shooting range in my front yard. I can reload in the basement of my home, walk across the lawn and test fire. Here is the bench. The uprights are drilled and have a pair of dowels every three inches so the cross piece (rest) can be adjusted for height. The 2x6 at the rear is to rest my elbow on for added stability. It is not pretty, but works well for me.
Cal

Cal,

Very nice standing and sitting rests. Solid like a brick outhouse, in reference to title of this thread.

"I can reload in the basement of my home, walk across the lawn and test fire."

What lawn besides fireweed, willows, and rocks can survive winters there?

Good looking rest Cal. Is the pickup used to test penetration?
Bill