http://auctions.holtsauctionee..._value=35&index=view

Saw this today and the estimated prices seem really low compared to even 6 months ago.

Is this realistic or just a marketing trick to attract more bidders?

DR prices have declined (I believe) but those prices seem like bait.

The one real data point I have to confirm that prices have fallen is that I, after 50 years of wanting a DR, finally bought one myself.


Tim

Holt's prices are low estimates and if the firearm in quesiton is quality, the bids will go higher--much higher. That said, low estimates (and I speak from experience) can be a sign of very poor quality. Such as the Winchester I bought from them last year. Looked good in the photos and description but when I got it the rifle was rusted shut and the action could not be opened due to excessive rust.
Cal

Sorry to hear that Cal.

A few years ago I spoke to the top guy and he was very personable.

They had done a fancy limited edition illustrated book a few years ago and presented the 1st copy to the Queen. Tried to sell it to me for a very high price - I do not remember the amount - but I think it was over $1000.

They were located in one of the palaces & also maintain all the Royal family's guns.

I wonder if they have moved or people have changed.

quote:

Originally posted by cal pappas:
Holt's prices are low estimates and if the firearm in quesiton is quality, the bids will go higher--much higher. That said, low estimates (and I speak from experience) can be a sign of very poor quality. Such as the Winchester I bought from them last year. Looked good in the photos and description but when I got it the rifle was rusted shut and the action could not be opened due to excessive rust.
Cal

quote:

Originally posted by cal pappas:
Holt's prices are low estimates and if the firearm in quesiton is quality, the bids will go higher--much higher. That said, low estimates (and I speak from experience) can be a sign of very poor quality. Such as the Winchester I bought from them last year. Looked good in the photos and description but when I got it the rifle was rusted shut and the action could not be opened due to excessive rust.
Cal

Reminds me of what George Caswell told me years ago...”Want to know why the sun never set on the British Empire? Cause you can’t trust the bastards after dark!”

quote:

when I got it the rifle was rusted shut and the action could not be opened due to excessive rust.

Damn, any recourse? What is their auction fee? I like that Blaser!!
Peter

Holts took the rifle back. I paid to send it back to the UK and Holts refunded the price, their commission, and the shipping to me. However, they did state it was my fault for not asking the right questions. I will post pics a bit later on tonight.
Cal
PS. I asked the bore condition and was told it was dirty. However, the action could not be opened so how did anyone look down the bore?

There is little use for a double outside of Africa.

Too many news ones have been produced and the age demographics of African hunting is ugly.

I would not want to have too much tied up in doubles.

People I know trying to sell higher dollar ones - $30k up - have had issues finding buyers.

Mike

Yes and no.

Yes, most double rifle prices have declined, much more steeply than anyone cares to admit on the Internet for fear of letting that information get out. Last two I purchased were at 60%-70% off of "asking price".

Why? A.) Its an old man's game to go to Africa at this point. Go to an SCI event and appreciate the fact you're probably 20 years younger than everyone else there. Second, realize that most of those SCI folks haven't been to Africa in 20 years. The customer base is getting older and they have what they need and they are needing less. B.) 50 year old men buy guns. Its a given fact in the same way that they have midlife crisis and buy expensive 2.0 wives and a muscle car that relives their youth. Less 50 year olds are going to Africa so there is less demand. C.) The true gun nuts are now aging beyond 60 and they don't buy many guns, 2.0 wives or muscle cars. In fact, as people become pensioners they SELL what they have buy and large, not accumulate more. Thus, the market is being flooded and GenX is not known to covet "things" and they don't even tend to buy big houses in the suburbs as they gravitate to small homes in expensive areas and multi-tenant urban environments. C.) There has never been less access than now to premium dangerous game hunts in Africa. The opportunity to apply the double rifles is less than it was 10-20 years ago.

Now to the "No" part of the question. Some double rifles along with some fine art is seeing record new highs on price globally. Same reason. The aristocrats are dumping their heirlooms whether picassos or purdeys as their tastes have changed. The nuveau riche are buying up the BEST of every antiquity and piece of modern fine art at record prices across the boards as a means to diversify and get money out of places like South America, Russia and China. (look at the foreign money gushing in Miami where people where $350,000 Lang wristwatches on the streets)

The caveat in all of this is that few of the readers here have a gun that will reach the demand curve to set a new record price and 98% as good is worth 1/10th as much. A dickson skeleton action double rifle isn't enough, it must be one of the 24 ever made and it must be the perfect one in the biggest caliber. A rigby double isn't enough, it has to be the magnum that is pre-war they made 3 of in history.

I saw a nice $45,000 modern Heym 470NE with a S&B scope for years at a gun shop. They wanted $18000, I offered $10,000. They countered at $13,000 and we could never come together over the years. A best Heym in lightly used condition is not enough "special" to command the secondary prices we're talking about to keep them from being way down in value.

Just my opinion as one that has seen many merkels sell for $4800-$5200 lightly used. Many Kreighoffs in the $6000 range. Many Spanish doubles in the $4000s.

Who is going to buy them all when the entire population of present owners is again and going on fixed incomes? Where are these new buyers going to hunt with them in any reasonable quantities? Where are the Generation X folks that can afford them but really don't want them going to even store them in their condos? And if they can afford them and can store them and can hunt with them and do want one, why would they want to pay $13,000 for a new one when a never fired used one might sell for $5800 after sitting around for years in a shop?

Not to sound bleak, I'm just speaking how I see it. My three highest quality rifles combined appraise out near $35,000 retail and I can't have more than $12,000 tied up in them. (because that's the types of prices these things fetch these days whether vintage or modern)

You can ask for a gun report from Holts. That can then be used for any come back.

I have bid and won guns on Holts. Never ended up completing the transaction for various reasons. Primary reason being that I bid on 3 guns and told them that I would take the cheaper guns only if i win the main one and ship all together. No sense in paying $500 shipping for a $300 gun.

On one occasion I asked further questions on a gun report - a very nice looking Danl Fraser 375 Fl magnum with Celtic style checkering. After the report and my questions, it turned out that it was rechambered from 375 - 2.5" and the stock was damaged and needed restocking! These issues were not in the original report.

I’m surprised the Royals still have guns these days.

Rook,

Those are killer prices you’ve seen on some guns.

Can't disagree with anything that has been said, however, the missing point is the joy and pride of ownership of something that is functional and a thing of beauty, and I don;t mean something who's beauty is that it is 100 years old! I owned and sold a K-gun in 500/416 and a Blaser in 500NE. Both were very functional and beautiful to look at. I sold both last year, but enjoyed owning them. I did not buy them expecting to make money, but I did expect to at least break even.
Peter.

The good ones still sell for real money. I sold two nice double rifles this week. Might not have brought what they would have in 2010 but all parties involved were very happy in the end. Anyone selling good quality British guns that needs some help finding them a new home please keep me in mind. Sales have been very good lately.

I have purchased 5 rifles/shotguns from Holts and picked them up for a fraction of what you would pay here. I have Diggory Hadoke check them out even after I have a gun report from Holts. He has saved me some real trouble, similar to what Cal experienced.

quote:

Originally posted by Dutch44:
I have purchased 5 rifles/shotguns from Holts and picked them up for a fraction of what you would pay here. I have Diggory Hadoke check them out even after I have a gun report from Holts. He has saved me some real trouble, similar to what Cal experienced.

Here is my Winchester from Holts.
Cal

quote:

Holts took the rifle back. I paid to send it back to the UK and Holts refunded the price, their commission, and the shipping to me. However, they did state it was my fault for not asking the right questions

Sounds like people one shouldn't do business with.

My brother sold a 1911 with problems and told the buyer about them.

The buyer another dealer at a gun show the same day was over heard trying to sell it for double the price saying worked just fine.

Just the other a member here was having trouble with a firearm. Said he was going to auction it.

I am wondering if he was going to mention the problems.

One has to be very careful when buying used firearms there are a lot of people who are willing to sell you something without mentioning the problems with it.

They put that on auction without showing a picture of it? I think I agree with p dog!
If I were the Duke of Edinburgh, I wouldn't buy from them!
Peter

quote:

Originally posted by p dog shooter:

quote:

Holts took the rifle back. I paid to send it back to the UK and Holts refunded the price, their commission, and the shipping to me. However, they did state it was my fault for not asking the right questions

Sounds like people one shouldn't do business with.

My brother sold a 1911 with problems and told the buyer about them.

The buyer another dealer at a gun show the same day was over heard trying to sell it for double the price saying worked just fine.

Just the other a member here was having trouble with a firearm. Said he was going to auction it.

I am wondering if he was going to mention the problems.

One has to be very careful when buying used firearms there are a lot of people who are willing to sell you something without mentioning the problems with it.

I hope you’re not talking about me and my issues with the G23. I checked all the things suggested by you and others and didn’t discover anything. If I do sell it, it will be a local sale and allow the buyer the chance to fire it.

I prefer to buy used rifles on ar - especially number 1.

If you are buying used from a gun nut you can easily determine what bullet the gun likes and how it shoots.

Other than blasers I don’t like buying new guns.

Mike

Mikey, I like buying used rifles from you. By the time you're done with them, all the bad shots have already been used up! :-)

Prince William & Kate, Charles & Camilla, Anne, Prince Harry and other royal relatives still shoot. The Queen & Prince Phillip may be old now but I think they still take part in the socials.

quote:

Originally posted by DCS Member:
I’m surprised the Royals still have guns these days.

quote:

Originally posted by Biebs:
Mikey, I like buying used rifles from you. By the time you're done with them, all the bad shots have already been used up! :-)

True - same reason I never buy a rifle from you. You are a marksman of repute. What it is now hit the berm 9 out of 10 times

Mike

quote:

Re

https://forums.accuratereloading.com/groupee_common/ver1.3.7.2147483647/platform_images/blank.gif
This is my 10th year working in the hunting safari and wild life ranching industries here in South Africa. I have three double rifles: .450 NE, .375 H&H, and .45-70. All are basic, no frills, every day working firearms. All of the PHs I know that have double rifles go for the basic "work horse" guns. You don't need fancy to be effective. Yes, prices on non-collector models have come down. It is a needed market correction. Comment on the nouveau riche is spot on. There is still plenty of opportunity to hunt DG...especially cape buffalo. Trophy fees have come down in some venues.

Colonel Dave Nuss
"Eagle One"

I doubled or tripled my dollars on every English or European double I ever owned, and did well on USA doubles as well...not overnight but within a year to say 5 years the increases were awesome..

I don't buy doubles anymore, the bottom has fallen out on them compared to about 5 to 10 years ago, Its more of a gamble these days. Why is that? I belive because the new African goverments have gotten increasly greedy and prices have gone beyond reason by the Indigenous of Africa, particularly in Tanzania and DG areas. Safari concessions and licensing has turned into a financial gamble with higher and higher prices every year and they have no idea how business works, they just know how to grab money and run..the good people of Africa, the PHs and consession owners or leases are getting the brunt of the issue..Its hurt the Safari operators to no end, the double gun dealers world wide. Its hard to deal with the indigenous of Africa.. but for this thread I won't go into that anymore other than its knocked the bottom out of double rifles and high dollar big bore english bolt guns..My prediction it will continue downward hopefully to a lesser degree and level out, but who knows
African hunting and doubles died once before.

Other issues such as SS and plastic stocks may have had some effect is common belief, but Im not so sure that's a factor, the changing mood of todays hunters can sure be an issue..I sold my first Buffalo 7 day hunts for around $2000. everything furnished..In 1982 I sold 7 day buff hunts for $3500. Best I recall a Plane ticket was $900, but booking agents got freebies and moved to first class if seats were available, not more...All this and other issues have effected the hunting in Africa and the pocket book of US hunter mostly during the Obama administration and his advise to the African republics..

Cal, that was an expensive trot line weight.

I remember British double rifles available for around $500 in the 1970s or 80s.

Even in 1996, I found a Army & Navy 450/400 NE Hammer rifle here in NZ with an asking price of $1,400 and I passed.

Since around 2000 prices spiked very rapidly. There was a lot of interest in DRs in the US. Rigby records moved to the US & California tried it about 10 years.

VC & Sabatti increased their presence in the market. I think even the high end German makers increased business.

Ammo makers started offering cases and loaded ammo about 15 years ago.

Woodeligh bullets in Australia were probably the major contributors to this revival. They offered appropriate quality bullets for DRs & helped revive the old safe queens.

Sorry Ray, but I do not understand your post. If market forces are at work then people are obviously buying these hunts. Just not Americans! Remember there are other people in the world eg. Germans, Russians, Arabs etc. etc. and presumably they are the ones buying the hunts. As to "the indigenous of Africa". if it is their land, shouldn't they get a cut of the pie? I asked this question a couple of years ago and got no response:
"where does the money go for trophy fees etc." How much to the outfitter, the government, the PH (presumably salary plus tips) etc. Perhaps it is all Obama's fault, but unless and until the Africans come up with a sustainable model where all participants benefit, I just don't see a stable environment. I know this is about double rifles, so why does the same rifle cost so much less in Europe? Again, market forces I presume. Americans have a "thing" about double rifles! And not just "any" double rifle! It MUST be a side by side, and it must be "traditional"!
Peter.

quote:

Originally posted by Peter:
Sorry Ray, but I do not understand your post. If market forces are at work then people are obviously buying these hunts. Just not Americans! Remember there are other people in the world eg. Germans, Russians, Arabs etc. etc. and presumably they are the ones buying the hunts. As to "the indigenous of Africa". if it is their land, shouldn't they get a cut of the pie? I asked this question a couple of years ago and got no response:
"where does the money go for trophy fees etc." How much to the outfitter, the government, the PH (presumably salary plus tips) etc. Perhaps it is all Obama's fault, but unless and until the Africans come up with a sustainable model where all participants benefit, I just don't see a stable environment. I know this is about double rifles, so why does the same rifle cost so much less in Europe? Again, market forces I presume. Americans have a "thing" about double rifles! And not just "any" double rifle! It MUST be a side by side, and it must be "traditional"!
Peter.

Where does the money go on trophy fees?

Gov concessions - most likely to govt revenues. How it is allocated or even sent to central govt is a whole different thing. In Zim I have been told it is kept at regional levels and used to pay wildlife govt official salaries. It is very interesting to look at these numbers and they are available - maybe not on internet but if ones goes and checks books and records locally.

Private land - to landowner.

There is also money in meat that comes of the animals.

Mike

quote:

Originally posted by Beretta682E:

There is also money in meat that comes of the animals.

Mike

That's a sore point with me. My PH had a concession with a special bamboo shed incl. concrete floor for processing animals for some reason, and every critter possible would simply be put complete in the back of the truck and driven back to camp for skinning, despite the 35C temperatures.

Two of mine were shot a couple of hours drive from camp, and strangely the hair slipped, ruining the trophies. Someone found another cape for the impala - not so easy with sable.

Seems to me that the original post question of have DR prices declined was never answered, or maybe just got off track.

Just last week at the Carolina Vintage Gunners meeting, a speaker (who is widely known gun/rifle/pistol appraiser, historian, gun museum curator and an employee of a leading USA gun auction house)discussed the weakness in the double gun and double rife market--along with other gun topics. His statements agree with what I have and continue to see---that only at the very top high end are double gun and rifle prices able to maintain price. The remainder are not (vast majority). He opined that there are about 250 Purdeys shotguns and rifles for sale in the USA now, which also agrees with what I see. He has been able to buy guns for a museum collection at prices so low that it is startling. I have had to face the facts when selling some of my English double guns in the last several years that I cannot receive the cost of what I put into these guns 10 or more years ago, some bringing only 70% of what they did at that time frame.

It is a buyers market now in the USA and will continue to be for a long time. So you buyers of used DR's should plan accordingly and buy some real deals and even better deals in the future. You do not need to now "strike while the iron is hot" but wait until even better deals appear and you can "pick up the iron from the top of the anvil after is has cooled".