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Is there such a thing? There are some of us out here who love these weapons but for reasons beyond our control will never make it to Africa. We would still like to do some amount of target shooting and hunt medium N.A. game with doubles, mainly deer, but without major amounts of recoil and thousands of un-usable foot pounds. So, are there options for downloaded ammo in the .40 and up calibers? That's assuming the most well-known bullet weight per caliber is used. Are there any specific loads or recommendations for ballistics and what should or shouldn't be attempted? Any ideas as to how this affects pressures and whether fillers are needed, etc? This is a subject I've wondered about for years. | ||
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Shack, For a .450 Nitro Express example, look in the Reloading section for this topic. A-5744. 450 3-1/4" NE. Reduced loads. I am going to try a 480 Hawk bullet with a 0.025" thick jacket. Consider the 405 Remington JFN and various 350 grain bullets. Consider cast bullets. There are numerous posts concerning this subject. Look up N E 450 No2 and his 75% rule. Most of all, have fun doing it. Use a double rifle. It just feels better. Double Rifle Shooters Society | |||
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Sure you can adjust the load wherever you want. Regulation will be a hudge challange and in many cases won't be possible at all if the load is significantly reduced. You can come up with a load of your choice and turn it into a single shot but I'd rather wast the extra energy on the deer than not use the rifle how it was intended. But I guess I'm a little lost here. Why not just buy a medium cal double rifle and call it good? I have taken deer with my 8x57 double rifle along with a hole lot of other medium size game. DRSS NRA life AK Master Guide 124 | |||
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If you take a bullet that weighs 75% of the full house normal bullet weight and load it over your powder charge for your regulating full house load, it will very likely be close to shooting to regulation. Adjust your light bullet load from there - reducing the load for crossing, adding a bit in case of spread - and you will find a great pig/deer load. For .458" rifles, the 350gr Hornadays and Woodleighs are great. JPK  Free 500grains | |||
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450/400 can be downloaded using .41 pistol bullets 450 Nitro can be downloaded 500 Nitro can be downloaded 577 Nitro can be downloaded And of course other calibres can be downloaded if using cast bullets. | |||
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I use the Hornady XTP 400gr pistol bullet from a 475 Linebaugh, in my 470NE. I use the same full house powder load, that I use with my 500gr Woodleighs. Makes a nice deer load, with less recoil, and regulates great. ND  Stephen Grant 500BPE Joseph Harkom 450BPE | |||
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Besides my 75% rule, there is another way to load even lighter kicking ammo for your bigbore double... Just duplicate Nitro for Black loads. In a 450/400 to 475 cal double, use a 300 to 400gr bullet, lead or jacketed and start with 42 gr of IMR 4198... WARNING, WARNING, WARNING, YOU MUST USE FILLER. The filler MUST BE COMPRESSED. depending on the case you are using it will take from 12gr to 15 gr of Dacron Polyester "pillow stuffing". You can get a bag of it at any sewing store. These loads are safe in the older Black Powder doubles, they are very mild in a Nitro gun. Start low and work up. You should be able to find a load that regulates well and hits to the sights at 50 yards. These loads will still regulate well at 100 but will hit low as their velocity will be @1800fps instead of the 2050+fps of your Nitro loads. DOUBLE RIFLE SHOOTERS SOCIETY | |||
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How much less recoil than your 75% Rule loads, on average? JPK Free 500grains | |||
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Why do not use the full load for hunting smaller game ? That's not a problem and good for training. I shot wildbores and roe deer's with my 460WM, full big game load. No destroy of meat, better that a hot .243 or .264 with a light bullet ! | |||
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Try using Trail Boss with anywhere from 70% - 100% case capacity. "This ain't Dodge City and you ain't Bill Hickok. " | |||
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Not a bad idea, but just one example why not..I was squirrel hunting with a 12 ga Model 12 using heavy field loads. Fine, so far. There's this fox squirrel so I lean way back on my stool and shoot. There's obviously no double rifle type kick but even the fairly solid push of this shotgun is enough that the stool and I roll over backwards and I'm on the ground (did get my squirrel however). I must have leaned a little too far back. Another time while in the reservoir duck hunting I was in up to my waist and made this straight overhead shot, and..ever tried swimming in water with ice on it?? Anyway, picture that scenario with a 500/.450 and full house loads..with one exception...you're 20 feet up perched on a deer stand. The safety belt might catch a guy but I don't think I even want to go there..I know the deer isn't going to be an upwards shot, but you get the idea. Things could get awkward. | |||
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I'd like to know a little more about using filler. When is it required and when is it not required in downloading, for instance, the 500/.450 and 450/.400? And are there publications from the different powder makers such as Hodgdon, Win and Rem on these type loads? (are Hodgdon and Win really the same thing these days?) | |||
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I use grits for filler in my 40-65, 45-70, 45-100 and 50 Alaskan. Fairly straight walled cartridges. I use a card wad on top of the powder then use a powder measure set to drop an amount of grits to where when I seat the bullet, usually cast, I get 1/8"-3/16" compression of the grits. My 1884 Trapdoor springfield will go 2" at 100yds, open sights, and my 50+ eyes aren't near as good as they used to be. Kind of like loading black powder as you don't want any air space. Lot of people will scream about chamber ringing, but no negatives so far for me. I use this with AA5744 and Re7. Plan on doing this with a 500 NE if I ever get one. Don't use it with trail boss as I understand it doesn't like compression and pressure will be, lets say, very non uniform. I have loaded 375 H&H with a casefull of a very, very slow burning powder. Think powders used in loading 50 BMG. Kind of like loading a 30-06 with 4831. Just can't get enough in the case to cause problems. I used cast in the 375 H&H at around 2100fps for a 265gr bullet and get about 1.5" groups and no leading. Lots of unburned powder is the drawback DRSS Beretta 45-70 belgian mag Tikka 512S 9.3 x 74R Baikal o/u 30-06 Looking for next one | |||
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JPK Quite a bit less. Think of a 45.70 in a 10 to 10.5 lb gun. Very comfortable to shoot. DOUBLE RIFLE SHOOTERS SOCIETY | |||
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Originally as you know these things usually had three bullet types all the same weight and all the same velocity. Full jacket - still made. Soft point - still made. Soft point split case - not made. For elephant, large non-dangerous game, leopard or thin skinned dangerous game. So why not re-create these soft point split cases bullets? They are quite literally a standard soft point that has had four vertical cuts put into the jacket through to the lead below. I'm guessing that with a suitable shaped nose shield you could put the bullets in a vice and use a jeweller's hacksaw to put the cuts in? You used to see the loaded rounds here in UK particularly in 470 NE. I suppose if you really wanted to be safe just use black powder and a paper patched all lead bullet of the same original weight. Or use an all lead gas check bullet and something like Triple-7? | |||
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enfieldspares You can duplicate the performance of the old soft nosed split by choosing a Hawk bullet with the proper jacket thickness. In my 450/400 3 1/4", I use my 75% rule with .408 diameter 300gr Hawks with the .035 jacket. I have killed deer and several wild pigs with this bullet with excellent results. By choosing the correct jacket thickness you can shoot a "deer" bullet in an "elephant gun". If for some reason your double does not respond to the 75% rule then you can shoot full weight Hawks, still with a thinner jacket. I do not use Hawks in my 450 No2 because there are so many good .458 bullets, but some of my friends use the 350gr Hawk in their 470's with perfect results on deer and pigs. DOUBLE RIFLE SHOOTERS SOCIETY | |||
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The 440gn BP bullet by Woodleigh is another lower velocity bullet that can be used with the 75% rule and of course the 350gn 458 Woodleigh. | |||
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Shack, You want to use enough filler to compress, when you are loading reduced loads or NFB loads. NE 450 No2 recently educated me on the importance of this, to prevent "Chamber Ringing". I then purchased Graeme Wright's book: "Shooting the British Double Rifle"...It has a great section on fillers, that describes the use of filler in depth. The knowledge in this section alone, is worth the price of the book. Buffalo Arms can have one at your door within the week. ND Stephen Grant 500BPE Joseph Harkom 450BPE | |||
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For a soft-nose split substitute in a .450 Nitro Express, a .458 Hawk 480 grain soft-nose with a 0.025" thick jacket has a lot of exposed pure lead and a very thin soft copper jacket. Also, the 350 grain Woodleigh made for the .450 Black Powder Express might be nice. Use a double rifle. It just feels better. Double Rifle Shooters Society | |||
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I tried full power loads in my 9.3x74. The softs did more damage than the 1 full power NF cup I shot my pig with in 470 nitro. Go with solid hard cast or NF cup points. You are large enough in dia you don't need the bullet to expand much if any. A hard flat nose bullet will move enough tissue with out a lot of excess damage to kill quickly. You won't see a lot of bang flops like you would with a explosive soft,its more like shooting them with a large dia muzzle loader and a TC Maxie ball. You will be able to eat right up to the hole with proper shot placement. Don't shoot them in the shoulder. They may run few yards but the tracking should be easy. JD DRSS 9.3X74 tika 512 9.3X74 SXS Merkel 140 in 470 Nitro | |||
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Since last posting I've done a little reading on past threads in the Reloading Forum and on some other sites. What I think I'm learning from it, is that in downloads in .40 and up Nitro Express you have a couple principle options. One is XMP 5744, in which case most seem to be saying no filler is needed. The other option appears to be 4198. There are apparently two versions of that, which I won't delve into here, but in any event I don't see any references to whether filler is needed with it. I'm also reading that the main reason for the filler is to ensure that the primer strike will reach all/enough of the powder for proper ignition. And I also saw (if I read it correctly) that chamber ringing can be caused by the wrong filler material (dacron was named in one case). If we stop right there, are we all basically on the same page with that much? And btw, I looked at the Hawk's site..interesting looking choice for downloads..until I saw those I was ready to say I didn't think for deer in these large bullet weights it would make any difference if we use a soft point, or a pointed soft point (some lead showing) or those soft point split case bullets..the reason being that I didn't think with deer any of these would have all that much expansion in the first place and basically it'd be "weight of broadsides" that would decide the issue. | |||
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Shack With Nitro For Black loads in Nitro doubles, using IMR 4198, you MUST USE FILLER. AND IT MUST BE COMPRESSED. I use 12 grains in my 450/400 3 1/4" and 15 grains in my 450 No2. I weigh the filler for every load. I have shot several hundred of them. DOUBLE RIFLE SHOOTERS SOCIETY | |||
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Shack if you use a hard cast bullet or the cup point you will not need to down load to avoid excessive damage. Some of the best groups I got in my 470 was full power loads of rl19 and hard cast 425 gr bullets, the one pig I shot with a full house load and a NF cup point lost very little meat, it was facing me , the round took out 3 very large vertebrae then traveled full length (5 foot +) through the ham were it was caught by the hide. I just ordered 50 cup points for my 9.3 for deer season. JD DRSS 9.3X74 tika 512 9.3X74 SXS Merkel 140 in 470 Nitro | |||
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Use Montana Bullet Works NEI 425 gr LFNGC with 50.0 grs of AA5744, no filler needed. Shoots nice tight groups and very comfortable to send downrange. "This ain't Dodge City and you ain't Bill Hickok. " | |||
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I've shot several dozen hogs with full power loads and expanding bullets with .470NE. Barnes, Woodleigh, and some hard cast lead. They really don't do much meat damage. They just kind of plow on through. And I've had a bunch of bang flops with them. Punch them through the shoulders and they tend to hit the ground hard and not move much except for a quiver or two. It's very satisfying. If you pump them behind the shoulder they'll run off and die leaving a massive blood trail. | |||
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The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Rifles Double Rifles Nitro Express Ammo, Downloaded For Deer?
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