I just bought a really cool (to me) cape gun, underlever, hammers, rt barrel 16 ga, left .577/450, well (what I would call medium coverage) engraved with scroll. For some reason, I believe the makers name on barrel was deliberately obscured at some time (possibly for export reasons?, I dunno) but it is still somewhat visible. No use in posting pics, it wouldn't show up but I can make out some of the letters....it says, I think.....

X XXXXSLNY CHURCH SQXx GRXXXXSTOWN

I keep looking at it and the last word is probably GRAHAMSTOWN

First words could be R BARY or maybe not but that is close.....

Any help would be appreciated.

Are the proof marks visable? Are they British or Belgium?

The name could well be that of the importer or merchant etc........ pics that show the style of the firearm might give a clue though...... as might serial number and/or proof marks.

Sounds like an interesting piece though.....

Everything is well visible except for maker's name as above and it looks like initials have been buffed off of trigger guard.

I'm by no means knowledgeable about antique arms or proof marks.....proof mark, if that's what it is, looks like pair of crossed bars(posts, whatever) with fluer de lis on top ends. and probably a star stamp on top with a V between lower projections of bars. Bars run NE-SW and NW-SE.

All the writing I can find is in English, including "HENRY'S PATENT A&T" on bottom of rifle barrel and 16 M CHOKE on other.

There is not the series of proof marks, stamps that you normally see on on most Euro and British arms on the table.....just a serial (?) number and two of those crossed stamps as described above one on each side. The "star" mentioned above could be a crown, hard to tell.

Pics......













As you can see in last pic, some moron replaced (or made, but looking at it, I think there was a rectangular cutout in stock before the brass cover was put on, probably replaced a missing or broken cover.....FWIW box cut out has 3 small indentions in bottom of it that appear to be original) a patch box cover on rt side butt stock and ground down the metal butt plate to fit but it is what it is.......and even with all that I think it is really cool, 16 bore is very good and rifle bore is somewhat dark frosted but not bad at all, considering age and use, with strong rifling.

Rib is interesting, full length, 3/4 inch wide at muzzle end, and on rear, before sights, tapers very slightly down to 11/16 at chamber end.

Damn but you seem to have the luck of the devil! That looks like a very interesting piece indeed...... and of good quality.

I can't see much detail of the brass cover but wonder if it might be original?

The guy who could probably tell you more about it is Fallow Buck or if not, his buddy Diggory.

I'll try to get hold of FB and if I can, I'll ask him to take a look.

I'm 99%+ sure the cover is not original, however as mentioned I think there was a box, ammo or otherwise there before the brass cover.

Any evidence of dovetailing around the edges of the patchbox? If so, would indicate it originally had a sliding wooden lid.

Tom

Just had a brief chat and look about. A lot of these guns were made and sent out to southern africa by both London and Birmingham makers, as well as belgian makers etc, then they either branded with the outfitters name or the distributors name.

The forend dates the gun post 1873 but you should be able to get an idea of more about it from the proof marks on the Barrels or any markings on the actions. If there is anything like that up there then we should be able to date the gun and possibly identify the original maker. Things to look for as well as proof marks is any kind of pictorial stamp or symbol that may be on there. For example Dig tells me that a tower stamp indicates W+C Scott (IIRC) and there are obviously others.

I nice bit of kit and something that could make a good project. I know Dig is busting to get out hunting Buffalo with some of these old guns, so he'll be able to chime in tomorrow with more information I'm sure.


From what I can see Church Square is an address in Grahamstown South Africa. I should think that if we can date the gun then perhaps we could look up prorietors of businesses that were registered in Church square at that time. Everything I found predated the gun so there is an outside chance you could find a match.

Are there any numbers on the gun at all?

Rgds,
FB

FB:

Thanks for looking at it. I'll try to include all numbers, etc in this description, there really aren't that many. The exterior serial number if any, is gone or covered by the rawhide stock repair which I am not going to remove at this point.

Forend, only markings are numbers 6 8 (part of serial number, see below) in front of rear screw on inside metal.

Barrels, not pictured above but mentioned by seller as possible indicator of Wesley Richards manufacture (which I put little faith in) is an engraved triangle at breech end of rib on top of rib, triangle base, which is open to dolls head, is width of rib, about 11/16 at that point and to top is 3/4 inch, filled with scroll extending back to dolls head. No numbers or letter associated with triangle. I think it is decorative, but thought it worthy of mention.

Barrels, besides the above described inscription on top rib, and yardage numbers for sights, have the following on them underneath:

Rt barrel, 16 ga: 3 lines of numbers, etc
top: 77
middle: further back toward breech is a faint W and maybe, stress maybe an R, second letter, the "R" is not clear at all, could be an F, then about a 1/2 inch forward of that, looks like two of the proof stamps as described above spaced out, I believe it is a crown shape at top, and maybe a crown or a V at bottom, then 15 B
bottom line: illegible stamp, looks kind of like bow tie with a dot above what would be knot in bow tie, then about 1/2 inch forward directly under the 15 B above is 16 M Choke.

Between barrels on bottom rib, or whatever it would be called: 11068 then about a 1/4 inch later capital S. This is the serial# and is on table of action.

Left/rifle barrel:

Top line: 77
Middle line: same "proof" mark, then 52, repeat same proof mark
Bottom line: HENRY'S PATENT A&T 3676 (below this is one number, just between the S and P, stamped at an angle 8)

Action: As far as I can tell, no remaining marking on exterior at all besides scroll engraving. Table has above proof mark on one side and above proof mark on other side (rifle) with number 11068 in front of it.

That's all as far as I see them now.

Thanks for you help.

BTW all the above stamps seem of the same age, none appear to be added later than manufacture or proofing dates.

Gatogordo,

Your gun is English. The barrel marking "Henry's Patent A&T 3676" indicates Adams and Tate made the rifle barrel under license from Alex Henry using Henry's patented rifling form, the number 3676 means it is the 3676th barrel made by them under that license for which they paid a royality.

Hope this is helpful.

Not possibly one of the early Greeners?
I know that all sorts of variations were brought into SA on under the Greener, some not even made by Greener. The action looks a lot like my Dominion Gun, but with more work done on it.
If you e-mail me the pics I will send them to some of the guys at my collectors association and see what we can drag up. I know they will be interested to see this one. mail@africanbushsafari.com
Ian

I think that if you posted this on the African Hunting Forum here you'd get an answer within the same day!