I just noticed this 470 boxlock for sale at the unbelievable price of 37,000!! They have to be nuts.

The Ft Worth location has a Wilkes 700 for $69K

The 700 is a J&L Wilkins, different maker.

My mistake, I just glanced at it.

Hate to inform the AR forun members but the time has come...

...There are just so few good English DRs on the market these days, thus the prices are a simple reflection of supply versus demand.

Take a look around...Westley Richards is selling their Rigby "C" model BLE for 35K. 2 years ago that was 25k rifle...and so on and so on...They ain't making any more "Vintage" doubles, think about that.

Just like Model 70s, DRs have shot up overnight and will never come back down.

If any of you are on the fence regarding a fine vintage DR...Word to the wise...Buy it now!

I'm glad I got in when I did.

JW

PS - That Wilkes .470 will pay for itself within 5 years....GUARANTEED!

quote:

Jeff Wemmer: DRs have shot up overnight and will never come back down...Word to the wise...Buy it now...That Wilkes .470 will pay for itself within 5 years....GUARANTEED!

Said like a stockbroker! Buy guns to enjoy, not for investment.

I tend to agree with fla3006. Enjoy your gun, and, if it appreciates in value, so much the better. Remember that the resale market is very limited, both in terms of size (how many people want a double?) and pocket book (how many of the afore mentioned people who want a double can afford $35K?).
Peter.

quote:

Said like a stockbroker! Buy guns to enjoy, not for investment.

Point taken. However part of the enjoyment of owning guns is knowing that unlike other "hobbies" if bought right guns are not only fun to shoot, but are money in the bank. Somebody might inherit them one day and if they decide to sell them, you did thewm a favor in the long term....Unlike spending money on "Beanie babies" or some other BS.

"Remember that the resale market is very limited, both in terms of size (how many people want a double?)"

That might have been the case a few years back, but the fact that there are so few good guns on the market and that they now command such high prices tells me that demand has incrased vastly in the past few years. As the "Boomers" begin to retire and cash-in on thier wisely placed capital investments, more and more will buy these high end guns. Look at the auction scene. Everything is going for astronomical prices and this is not being driven solely by dealers.

Yes, enjoy your guns, shoot the heck out of them, but unlike boats, airplanes, 4-wheelers, RVs (all of which are cheaper to rent), guns are the better way to go. You can have all of the fun, and still make the "mun"!!!

As long as people are buying and shooting guns, who cares why they are doing it (other than for illicit reasons) as long as we all stick together and keep the "Ls" from taking them away!

JW

I'll agree with most of what you said other than the Airplane comment. One of the greatest gains my family made was on a airplane. bought a 64 235 in 85 for 16,000 sold it in 94 for 57,000. 9 years and 41,000 pretty good investment.

I agree it is a hobby that will at least break even over time.

505ED

Private planes are like vintage double rifle. They aren't making that many and the new ones are outrageous.

You Texans must have oil coming out of your ears! I don't think it is a coincidence that gas prices are up and double prices are up. Lots of disposable cash apparently.

quote:

You Texans must have oil coming out of your ears! I don't think it is a coincidence that gas prices are up and double prices are up. Lots of disposable cash apparently.

Will, it's just a simple case of "every dog has its day"...That's all.

JW

Population and economic growth in Texas has run 2.5-3.0% annually for the past decade, about 1 percentage point higher than the national average, and is forecast to accelerate. Texas is only second behind Florida as a destination for retirees and immigrants. Houston is now the nation's third largest city, bigger than Chicago. The oil industry is still important to the economy but more important are the high tech and construction-related sectors.

I personally wish growth would slow before the entire state is one big urban blight.

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
You Texans must have oil coming out of your ears! I don't think it is a coincidence that gas prices are up and double prices are up. Lots of disposable cash apparently.

I hate to tell you this, but the day's of "cheap oil" are over and it's not the Texan's or the oil companies fault. We are exploring/drilling in deeper water depth's (3000 to 7500' is pretty routine now days) and deeper in the stratigraphic section (3 to 7 miles below the earth's surface). Rig rates have gone through the roof - expect to pay $450,000 per day for a rig capable of drilling in those water depth's and be prepared to sign a 3 year contract (do the math 3 years x 365 days x $450k = big number) and that's just for the iron. Add another $200,000 to $250,000 per day for crews, supply boats, material, etc. Then we are going to use it to drill "prospects/idea's" that have a 20-30% chance of working.

I can go on, but the point is: when we are looking for "new oil reserves" in this kind of environmet, because most of the cheaper oil (i.e., on-shore) has been found and used up. Plus, China and India now want AC, car's, refrigerators, etc., etc.

PS: Will I'm not picking on you, as you probably already know all of this anyway, so leave us Texan's alone!

And if you "really want to get in on all the fun", then drop me an email, as I have some prospect's that you might want to invest in.

Did somebody mention a Double Rifle for sale at Cabela's?

JW

What was that about "every dog has its day"?

quote:

Originally posted by Jeff Wemmer:
Take a look around...Westley Richards is selling their Rigby "C" model BLE for 35K. 2 years ago that was 25k rifle...and so on and so on...

In another two years it might, just might, be a $25,000 rifle, but it isn't yet.

It looks like a Rigby "Class D". ALL of Rigby's boxlock DRs were built for them others. Most (the best) were built by Webley, but a tiny handful came from others. There was a nice .303 floating around the web not long ago that was definitely from Wilkes.

Take a close look at this rifle. It definitely isn't from Webley or Wilkes, nor is it of that quality. Pretty sure it's an Osborne.

I saw a Rigby .470 Class D sell at a high end gun auction a few months ago. It was a Webley built gun (a PHV-1), same grade. Except for a minor problem with the black on the left barrel, it was mint, in what was probably the original case. Lovely gun, and it made top of the market - $22,000.

...and the one Westley has for sale isn't even from Webley!

Yes, it's true, the number of nice pre-war British guns is shrinking, and no, the market isn't what you would call "limited" (what a howl!). As far as the "guns are for use, not invesment" crowd...If I had it to do over again, I would have invested EVERY SINGLE PENNY that I had 20 years ago in British double rifles, instead of the modest sum that I actually did. I'd be better off had I done so.

When posting new stock British DRs like this, some DR dealers like to troll for suckerfish for a while. They put on a perfectly stupid price just to see if anyone will take it. Lewis Drake, Westley Richards, Cabelas, and Bass Pro are the ones that come to mind. Some of them have more patience with this tactic than the others. Bass Pro had a nice Holland & Holland Dominion .465 for sale. They initially listed it for $50,000, at a time when it was a $25,000 gun. They had it for sale for two years before an idiot finally bought it for $36,000. Some of the guns on the Westley site have been there for that long, and their prices are just as ridiculous, if not more so.

quote:

Just like Model 70s, DRs have shot up overnight and will never come back down.

PS - That Wilkes .470 will pay for itself within 5 years....GUARANTEED!

Yes, prices are rising fast, but not that damned fast. A price of, say $25,000 for either would be over market today. Either might be worth the current asking prices in 5 years...but not now.
----------------------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

quote:

Yes, prices are rising fast, but not that damned fast. A price of, say $25,000 for either would be over market today. Either might be worth the current asking prices in 5 years...but not now.

My point exactly...Where else can you get something, play with for five years (or much less IMHO)and get you money back, plus.

I too was "surprised" at the asking price of the rifle...But I make the point and the original intent of my post was to ALERT those that are pondering the purchase of a fine double to get it done fast, or they will be paying the prices aforementioned.

That, I think we can all agree on.

As far as the market being very limited, no way. It is limited only in terms of available rifles for sale...

...Look at the G&H site...That 90K LeBeau just sold...The 55K Marcel Thys just sold at Cabelas...I wonder who is buying all of this "overpriced" stuff!

...The Cabelas gun will be gone before month's end...

...Get'em while they're hot.

quote:

Originally posted by Jeff Wemmer:
...Look at the G&H site...That 90K LeBeau just sold...The 55K Marcel Thys just sold at Cabelas...I wonder who is buying all of this "overpriced" stuff!

...The Cabelas gun will be gone before month's end...

Yep, that's why they like to troll for suckerfish for a while...but that doesn't make anomalous sales FMV.
----------------------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

Wasn't everyone talking about Real Estate this way a few short years ago? People who buy during the Frenzy are sure to get screwed someday. I'd say a great percentage of high end DRs are in Texas...."why yes I have big ones and Big guns too"

quote:

Originally posted by Jeff Wemmer:

quote:

Yes, prices are rising fast, but not that damned fast. A price of, say $25,000 for either would be over market today. Either might be worth the current asking prices in 5 years...but not now.

My point exactly...Where else can you get something, play with for five years (or much less IMHO)and get you money back, plus.

I too was "surprised" at the asking price of the rifle...But I make the point and the original intent of my post was to ALERT those that are pondering the purchase of a fine double to get it done fast, or they will be paying the prices aforementioned.

That, I think we can all agree on.

As far as the market being very limited, no way. It is limited only in terms of available rifles for sale...

...Look at the G&H site...That 90K LeBeau just sold...The 55K Marcel Thys just sold at Cabelas...I wonder who is buying all of this "overpriced" stuff!

...The Cabelas gun will be gone before month's end...

...Get'em while they're hot.

They may have sold but I seriously doubt any of them went for full price! Westley Richards will deal on their guns as will any of the serious sellers. Once the reality sets in that the housing market is falling and the owners cannot use their McMansions as an ATM machine prices on a lot of different items will begin to soften.

quote:

They may have sold but I seriously doubt any of them went for full price! Westley Richards will deal on their guns as will any of the serious sellers. Once the reality sets in that the housing market is falling and the owners cannot use their McMansions as an ATM machine prices on a lot of different items will begin to soften.

"McMansions as an ATM machine" I love it....Good one.

There is ZERO correlation between housing related issues and a mythical deflationary trend caused by such and the prices of a "finite" category such as Pre-war English Double Rifles, none whatsoever....Think of DRs like you would a vintage 1655 Rolex.

These dealers don't budge as much as you might think they do...FYI.

JW

Rolex

WR deal on the guns they sell as they don't own many / any and 20% of $1000 is better than 100% of nothing.

Someone else mentioned the price.
If the price is too high, the gun is not aimed at you anyway and I really don't think they give a s*#t what people on forums think, the guns sell.

Look at what Drake asks for some of his stuff.

When you sell guns in the $40,000 and up price bracket, the people buying these guns are more interested in, at least initially "is this the the right gun" not "is the price is too high".
I have this confirmed by a number of people.

I would second that last bit as well.

As mentioned previously....There is a finite number of fine DRs available and that guarantees that serious buyers won't mess around too much when it comes to the price.

Those that think the these guys are putting stuff out there at rediculous prices to see if anybody is stupid enough to pay for them are a bit ignorant of the facts...The elite collectors have a good idea where the market is and where it is going, thus the dealers that sell to them don't get too far from the market when putting up these guns. I do admit that occasionally some guns do get listed at well above market prices, usually as a result of being on consignment, but dealers have a reputation to uphold and won't let a consignor dictate too much what the guns need to sell for.

Furthermore not too many guys wake up one morning and decide they are going to buy a 40K for kicks...The buyers of this grade of rifle know form the most part what they are doing and are willing to pay a premium for guns that are nearly unobtainable / will appreciate nicely over the coming years.

That is how this game is played....Just a friendly FYI.

Like Jeff says there is a whole subculture that collects these high end firearms. These folks have the personal wealth to not just buy one but several high end firearms.

To them it isn't so much the money, as it is the "Deal". Fine firearms are traded back and forth just like guns at the local gun shows, but on a much "pricier" level.

We rarely see these goings on's because most of us don't travel in these circles.

Rusty

Spot on - most don't even see these deals.

The guns I've sold in the $40,000 - $90,000
price bracket never even hit the market.

The buyers came to me - after no one else could
find what they wanted - and said exactly what they wanted and that was that. I either had it or I didn't, showed them the gun, they either bought it or didn't - not based on the price, but because it was or wasn't what they wanted.

quote:

Originally posted by rolexfan:

quote:

Originally posted by Jeff Wemmer:

quote:

Yes, prices are rising fast, but not that damned fast. A price of, say $25,000 for either would be over market today. Either might be worth the current asking prices in 5 years...but not now.

My point exactly...Where else can you get something, play with for five years (or much less IMHO)and get you money back, plus.

I too was "surprised" at the asking price of the rifle...But I make the point and the original intent of my post was to ALERT those that are pondering the purchase of a fine double to get it done fast, or they will be paying the prices aforementioned.

That, I think we can all agree on.

As far as the market being very limited, no way. It is limited only in terms of available rifles for sale...

...Look at the G&H site...That 90K LeBeau just sold...The 55K Marcel Thys just sold at Cabelas...I wonder who is buying all of this "overpriced" stuff!

...The Cabelas gun will be gone before month's end...

...Get'em while they're hot.

They may have sold but I seriously doubt any of them went for full price! Westley Richards will deal on their guns as will any of the serious sellers. Once the reality sets in that the housing market is falling and the owners cannot use their McMansions as an ATM machine prices on a lot of different items will begin to soften.

The LeBeau went for full price, or very nearly so, I was told.

I was updating my homeowner's insurance because I am moving soon and closing on our new house tomorrow. Going over my listed guns, I looked at the value of my Marcel Thys and a pair of English shotguns I own and since both are at G&H for some minor work I asked what they would go for. I was suprised and needed to bump my coverage more than I thought.

My Thys, according to G&H is worth 3x the price I paid just three years ago - but then I got a great deal according to G&H (and I didn't buy it from G&H, but when I ran the purchase price past Paul three years ago, he said "don't hesitate, buy it".) The English pair were worth twice what I had in them even after figuring cost of reconditioning. Four years of ownership and reconditioning cost in England equal to the purchase price = 2x total cost.

IMO, here is a baseline. Anything that can be made by man can be duplicated, even if not exactly. The cost of labor around the developed world is and has been skyrocketing. If what you are after is a labor intensive build, rifle, fine car (Ferrari, Aston-Martin, even Porche and Jaguar), house (not all houses are labor intensive and its stilll location location location but for those with location, the law of labor will always apply), it won't take too long to be in the black, even if you pay a premium. Even more so if what you want is SKILLED labor intensive, like a rifle.

JPK

Good observation JPK...You are a thinking man indeed!

The Thys rifles are now keepers as are the LBC guns.

Wake up folks the good-old days are gone!

JW

Jeff

If you need to wake up, you really have missed the boat !!!

quote:

Originally posted by rolexfan:
Once the reality sets in that the housing market is falling and the owners cannot use their McMansions as an ATM machine prices on a lot of different items will begin to soften.

I've watched the DR market very closely for a long time, and we've had that precise circumstance more than once during those years. The DR market (speaking of real FMV here, not fairy tales ) did plateau during those years, but never declined.
---------------------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

Jeff

If you need to wake up, you really have missed the boat !!!

Amen!

quote:

speaking of real FMV here, not fairy tales

That is defined by what a willing buyer pays to a willing seller, not what you or I might nessecarily pay.

JPK

Rolexfan, that's going to be a part of permanent exibit there!

quote:

Originally posted by JPK:

quote:

speaking of real FMV here, not fairy tales

That is defined by what a willing buyer pays to a willing seller, not what you or I might nessecarily pay.

...and the best way of reaching agreement is to look at comparable sales.
----------------------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

quote:

Originally posted by Jeff Wemmer:
These dealers don't budge as much as you might think they do...FYI

I know most of these guys and like them for the most part so I won't get too specific here. Speaking of the four dealers I listed in my original post, Rolexfan is exactly right. I've seen them sell British DRs at deep cuts from the original asking price - in one case a nice rifle sold for one third of the asking price.

quote:

Those that think the these guys are putting stuff out there at rediculous prices to see if anybody is stupid enough to pay for them are a bit ignorant of the facts...The elite collectors have a good idea where the market is and where it is going, thus the dealers that sell to them don't get too far from the market when putting up these guns. I do admit that occasionally some guns do get listed at well above market prices, usually as a result of being on consignment, but dealers have a reputation to uphold and won't let a consignor dictate too much what the guns need to sell for.

I don't agree with any of this statement. Jeff, I think you're ascribing infinitely more expertise to these dealers than is warranted.

I've had the occasion to ask two of the dealers I mentioned (not the two you might think) whether a given rifle had chopper-lump or shoe-lump barrels, and found myself having to explain what chopper-lump and shoe-lump meant! That's just one small example. If they know so little about this particular product, then there's zero chance that they're expert on it's market value, end of story.

I respect your views Jeff, but we'll never even be in the same zip code on this issue. In the interest of harmony, I'll leave it at that.
----------------------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

quote:

Originally posted by 400 Nitro Express:

quote:

Originally posted by Jeff Wemmer:
These dealers don't budge as much as you might think they do...FYI

I know most of these guys and like them for the most part so I won't get too specific here. Speaking of the four dealers I listed in my original post, Rolexfan is exactly right. I've seen them sell British DRs at deep cuts from the original asking price - in one case a nice rifle sold for one third of the asking price.

quote:

Those that think the these guys are putting stuff out there at rediculous prices to see if anybody is stupid enough to pay for them are a bit ignorant of the facts...The elite collectors have a good idea where the market is and where it is going, thus the dealers that sell to them don't get too far from the market when putting up these guns. I do admit that occasionally some guns do get listed at well above market prices, usually as a result of being on consignment, but dealers have a reputation to uphold and won't let a consignor dictate too much what the guns need to sell for.

I don't agree with any of this statement. Jeff, I think you're ascribing infinitely more expertise to these dealers than is warranted.

I've had the occasion to ask two of the dealers I mentioned (not the two you might think) whether a given rifle had chopper-lump or shoe-lump barrels, and found myself having to explain what chopper-lump and shoe-lump meant! That's just one small example. If they know so little about this particular product, then there's zero chance that they're expert on it's market value, end of story.

I respect your views Jeff, but we'll never even be in the same zip code on this issue. In the interest of harmony, I'll leave it at that.
----------------------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

You are right on! The same has happened to me. It is amazing that some of the dealers are in the dark on the technical aspects of their products. I have also looked at some very nice double rifles that are made by a small German maker that are very nice! The price is excellent and the fit and finish is very good.

quote:

Originally posted by Chris E Nelson:
Wasn't everyone talking about Real Estate this way a few short years ago? People who buy during the Frenzy are sure to get screwed someday. I'd say a great percentage of high end DRs are in Texas...."why yes I have big ones and Big guns too"

They are getting screwed now!!! Nevada has the highest foreclosure rate in the nation and this was caused by " the flippers". These people came in and slept in the driveway of the model homes! The priced were increased 20,000 after 20 buyers were signed up and they continued this practice until they sold out the subdivision. These buyers are currently losing these homes as the value has tanked and the market has a glut of homes and no buyers. Serious loses and a ton of foreclosures. Sad but true.

quote:

I don't agree with any of this statement. Jeff, I think you're ascribing infinitely more expertise to these dealers than is warranted.

I've had the occasion to ask two of the dealers I mentioned (not the two you might think) whether a given rifle had chopper-lump or shoe-lump barrels, and found myself having to explain what chopper-lump and shoe-lump meant! That's just one small example. If they know so little about this particular product, then there's zero chance that they're expert on it's market value, end of story.

I respect your views Jeff, but we'll never even be in the same zip code on this issue. In the interest of harmony, I'll leave it at that.

Thanks & I appreciate your remarks as well. And, I will side with you on the fact that a lot (most) of these guys do not know their products as well as we do with regards to the various design and technical aspects. And, if you read closely I did not make the claim based on their "technical" expertise.

But, most do know roughly where the market is - that's a pretty easy thing to get a handle on and requires little if any technical expertise, with regards to high-end DRs. Adding to that, the odd guy that gets a really nice DR to sell is rare. So, I stand by my assertions on pricing. The better guns usually go to the top-level guys who know their prices...and usually a good bit about the rifles.

Contrary to what "Rolexfan" has posted, they do not make deep cuts as a matter of routine practice. Once in a while, but not the norm...Purdey, Rigby, H&H, WR (in desireable calibers) bring the money, period...The second and third tier guns (Lang, Jeffrey, Evans, etc.) might have a little room in them, but not a ton. Yes, you can call up some guys and get them to budge on a "sorta-named" odd-ball caliber DR with extractors and in so-so condition I've seen that happen. But, top conditioned rifles in desireable calibers (.375 FL, 450-400 3", .450 #2 .465, .470. 500 and up NE rifles) bring top dollar. You can get "lucky" on occasion, but I wouldn't bet on it.

There are several gun dealers here in the US that can match wits with the best of us when it comes to DR / High-end gun know-how....Caswell, Drake, Thomas, Merker come to mind. I'll admit that these guys are in the minority overall.

And, I am by no means serving as "dealer advocate" here. I just do not like when somebody makes claims that "Deep cuts" abound out there - they don't. That is just not true and is very misleading to the neophyte, newly interested buyers / collectors. The majority of the really great guns get bought behind the scenes anyway.

QUOTE BY ROLEXFAN: "You are right on! The same has happened to me. It is amazing that some of the dealers are in the dark on the technical aspects of their products. I have also looked at some very nice double rifles that are made by a small German maker that are very nice! The price is excellent and the fit and finish is very good."

Again, I would agree with you regarding the technical expertise. But, again, that has little to do with what the market is doing pricewise.

Good, civilized thread we have going here.

JW

I sold my old house to a flipper. A year later he is still sitting on it.

I hope that does not make me a bad person.

quote:

I sold my old house to a flipper. A year later he is still sitting on it.

I hope that does not make me a bad person.

Shame on you!

JW