Lords and Ladies:
With full gratitude to Mr. Biebs. Without whom we would be lost and without illustration.

I wanted to show you Neal's 577 that was teased in the other post. I do not have a picture of the flats, but can get one with a phone call.

If you ask me a question and I do not respond, I am not being rude. I am officially gone hunting and will respond when I come back.

In full disclosure, Neal and my father in law are class 3 dealers and have done a lot of business together. I have no stake in this rifle other than showing it off. I have never purchased anything from Neal, but I did threaten to drop this rifle during a coonfingering session. And use the "accident"as justification to my Minister for its purchase.

Stunning!!!

Very sweet! Thanks for sharing. If he is selling the rifle would be curious to know what he is asking.

Good luck hunting!

Didn't someone say $40K?

Is that the price with or without a kidney?

Mike, you've got 2....one to spare! :-)

Lead me not into temptation…

A few questions:
3" case
full nitro load: 100-750 max
length of pull
extractor or ejector
weight
barrel length
case
accessories
load info
target
ledger page
any history?

Thanks for your time.
Cal
PS. Did I mention lead me not into temptation?
Biebs: can I have a loan?

quote:

Originally posted by Biebs:
Mike, you've got 2....one to spare! :-)

. . . my point exactly.

quote:

Originally posted by cal pappas:
Lead me not into temptation…

A few questions:
3" case
full nitro load: 100-750 max
length of pull
extractor or ejector
weight
barrel length

3" Case
Black Powder
15" LOP
Ejector
Eleven and a Half Pounds
28" CL Barrels

quote:

Originally posted by 5seventy:

quote:

Originally posted by cal pappas:
Lead me not into temptation…

A few questions:
3" case
full nitro load: 100-750 max
length of pull
extractor or ejector
weight
barrel length

3" Case
Black Powder
15" LOP
Ejector
Eleven and a Half Pounds
28" CL Barrels

I think that is right - not a nitro gun.
I'm not bashing it but there is a very important distinction to be understood when dealing with 577s in regard to BPE and nitro guns and even the values between the 90/650 and 100/750 proved rifles.

Julia's made a good assessment of the rifle in their catalog.

link: http://jamesdjulia.com/item/2234-386/

This is their description:

*EXCEPTIONALLY RARE .577 DOUBLE RIFLE BY DANIEL FRASER.
SN 3015. (ca 1900) Cal. .577 3″. (.595 groove diameter, 7 groove Metford type rifling.) 28″ Chopper lump steel bbls are engraved “Dan’l Fraser & Co Gun & Rifle Manufacturers 4 Leith St. Terrace Edinburgh” at unmatted portion of full length file cut rib. Bbls are fitted with one standing, one folding leaf express rear sight marked for 100 and 200 yards, standing leaf with inset “certifiable antique ivory” triangle. Small bead front sight with flip-up porcelain moon bead, is longitudinally dovetailed into raised front portion of rib. Ribs are recessed behind muzzles in typical Fraser fashion. There are short triangles of small scroll engraving at breech ends of bbls. Bbl flats are stamped with London black powder proofs for .577 EX and with SNs. A sling eye is soldered to bottom rib. Usual to Fraser, bow-backed boxlock action features non-automatic safety which is locked in safe position by pivoting bolt (SAFE engraved on gold arch), with BOLTED on inlet platinum rectangle. Action features pivoting third fastener with bolt on rib extension, side clips, bushed strikers, and double triggers. Action is well filed with serpentine fences and well cut beads. and is engraved with exceptionally well cut small scroll within Celtic knot borders. “Dan’l Fraser & Co” is in riband on both sides. Blued floorplate is nearly fully scroll engraved. Top lever pivot is engraved “Frasers Patent”. Blued trigger guard has SN on bow. Tang extends to horn grip cap. Newly made, well figured, and lightly streaked European walnut capped pistol grip buttstock measures 15″ over dark russet leather covered pad, and features right hand shadow line cheekpiece, point pattern checkering, and a sling eye on toe line. Long splinter ejector forend has Anson release. Drop at heel: approx 2-1/4″, drop at comb: approx 1-5/8″. Weight: 11 lbs 8 oz. LOP: 15″. PROVENANCE: This gun is listed by SN in DANIEL FRASER GUN AND RIFLE MAKER OF EDINBURGH SCOTLAND by Jonathan Kirton, and it is among only a handful of big bore dbl rifles made by this prestigious firm. Special Note: This item contains or is made of ivory. Do not bid on this lot unless you have read and agreed to our "Ivory Position Statement" and the "Waiver of Legal and Financial Risk to James D. Julia in regards to your Purchase of an Ivory Object." This information is located in the front section of our catalog. CONDITION: Very good, as refurbished. Bbls retain essentially all of a fine satin re-black, engraving picked up. Action is an even gray patina. Engraving on fences somewhat worn, otherwise engraving is relatively clear. Floorplate and trigger guard retain nearly all of a fine re-blue, engraving on trigger guard softened and almost erased at grip. Buttstock retains essentially all of its hand rubbed oil finish with some light handling marks. Forend retains nearly all of an oil refinish, checkering re-cut, and with some epoxy stabilization toward breech. Bores are fine, shiny, with strong rifling throughout, frosted to lightly pitted, throughout, a bit deeper in left bbl. Action has just a hint of looseness. Bbls are slightly off face. Ejectors are in time. 49318-8 MGM200 IVORY (30,000-40,000) – Lot 2234

Definitely a nice rifle but $30-40K for a .577 EX just seems way high to me . . . but I do not profess to have much of an understanding of the pricing of black powder doubles.

A beautiful Marcel Thys sidelock 577 brought only $18975 including buyer premium at last Julia auction. Presale estimate was $25-35K.

Damn! I would have been all over that. I wonder if that's the one McKay bought?

I would have too, if I had been paying attention. An Army & Navy 450 & Francotte 500/465 went for under $13K.

Julia's description is not too flattering. How can a bore be fine and shiny and also frosted and lightly pitted? Loose action and off face?

No doubt this is an outstanding and very rare rifle and previous sales of .577 bpe rifles will have no bearing on this sale due to quality and rarity. Hammer and under lever bpe 577s sell well below 10K and, as stated above, there is a huge difference between lighter nitro and full nitro 577s. The old refurbish is of no concern to me as a refurbish to original standards by a quality 'smith does not hurt the value.

Does anyone know the hammer price when this rifle sold? Just curious.
Cheers.
Cal

It didn't sell at Julias. My guess is that it didn't meet reserve.
I would love to have this gun now that I have been shooting my Alex Henry 577 BPE. The 577, 500 and 450 BPE rifles are hard to beat for anything I will ever shoot that's for sure and they are just so cool!
And just imagine loading up some paper patched beauties for those Metford bores! They may improve over the way they look now. I have a Westley match rifle that had a dark frosty bore that looks better and better the more I shoot PP bullets in it. Pits are another thing altogether though.

I believe this gun is also on Gunbroker right now at a buy it now price of $50K and it says in the ad that it has been restocked. I am not sure if the stock is the same as the one in the pictures at the start of this thread or not. The pictures on GB do not show the stock very well.

As Cal said, it is a very rare rifle by one of the best makers of all time but man, getting up around $40-50K is in another league altogether and not many black powder proved doubles can get to that level.
A great rifle but at the asking price it does have many strikes against it IMO.

Gentlemen:
Neal swears to me it is a full into rifle. However, he is more class 3 than double rifle man.

In the sprit of debate, love, knowledge, and fun I will have pictures of the barrel flats tomorrow.
Yes the asking price is 40k as Neal is convinced it is a full into rifle. Better to show than argue.

Yes the rifle appears posted on gunbroker, but it is not Neal posting it. Neal is from Cloumbus OH and this guy is from Georgia. He also has it priced above Neal,s asking and marked price.

The gunbroker guy has just posted it as his at a higher price please Avoid I will tell Neal when I see him tomorrow.

Thank you Mr. H for making me aware of thiis.

Oh, would anyone like to see his gold leaf Holland and Holland 8 bore?

Sounds like the GB ad may be a scam.
I notice that the ad has info from the Julia's catalog mostly word for word and the photos do look like something anybody could take at a gun show.
Weird that the asking price is so high though.

I sure hope that Neil doesn't have very close to his asking price in it or that he bought it as a nitro gun. He may end up with it forever.
I say, not the worst gun to be stuck with...

As a side bar, three years ago I missed a full nitro .577 by Army and Navy. No engraving but in fine condition for 28K. I know the buyer and I hound him without mercy to sell it to me at a profit!

The owner of the Fraser should sell it himself as a clown on gun broker trying to make 10+K will sour many potential buyers.

A pic of the flats will answer the mystery of the proofing.

Cal

PS. Tell Neal to read this thread on this rifle.

quote:

Originally posted by Huvius:
It didn't sell at Julias. My guess is that it didn't meet reserve.
I would love to have this gun now that I have been shooting my Alex Henry 577 BPE. The 577, 500 and 450 BPE rifles are hard to beat for anything I will ever shoot that's for sure and they are just so cool!
And just imagine loading up some paper patched beauties for those Metford bores! They may improve over the way they look now. I have a Westley match rifle that had a dark frosty bore that looks better and better the more I shoot PP bullets in it. Pits are another thing altogether though.

I believe this gun is also on Gunbroker right now at a buy it now price of $50K and it says in the ad that it has been restocked. I am not sure if the stock is the same as the one in the pictures at the start of this thread or not. The pictures on GB do not show the stock very well.

As Cal said, it is a very rare rifle by one of the best makers of all time but man, getting up around $40-50K is in another league altogether and not many black powder proved doubles can get to that level.
A great rifle but at the asking price it does have many strikes against it IMO.

I agree and I, too, am enjoying my .450, .500, and .577 bpe, and 12-10-8-4-bore too, as much or more than my nitro rifles. If I had to sell one group, I'm really not sure which would go first.
Cal

quote:

Originally posted by cal pappas:
As a side bar, three years ago I missed a full nitro .577 by Army and Navy. No engraving but in fine condition for 28K. I know the buyer and I hound him without mercy to sell it to me at a profit!

The owner of the Fraser should sell it himself as a clown on gun broker trying to make 10+K will sour many potential buyers.

A pic of the flats will answer the mystery of the proofing.

Cal

PS. Tell Neal to read this thread on this rifle.

Cal, did Caswell have the Army and Navy .577? I tried to buy one from George at SCI several years ago. I dilly dallyed around at the show and he sold it. Told me he sold to a fellow in Alaska.

Same rifle, Mike.
Cal

I still wish I had snapped up that rifle.

What's worse is that I see the rifle often, have shot it, and the owner won't sell it to me!!!!!!!!
Cheers, mate.
Cal

Here is a picture of the barrel flats if you would please add. Also would like to report that the rifle is on face (no light between the barrels water table and standing breach with no movement). However, it does have some pitting in the left barrel and the right looks fine to the naked eye with light.

Neal has been informed of the gunbroker ad. He did not have the rifle at James Julia. But the why is between him and the person who tried to steal it.

quote:

He did not have the rifle at James Julia. But the why is between him and the person who tried to steal it.

HMMM... whatever that means...

Julia's obviously had the rifle in their possession at some point. At least long enough to photograph it and include it in their catalog.
Did Neal pull it from the auction before the auction date?

It looks like it was reproved again as a BP rifle and the stamps reversed over the original "577EX" and the London Black Powder proof mark.
I am unclear as to what would have required a reproof at that time. Maybe something as minor as relaying the barrel ribs could have required it. Anybody here know those rules?

Julia's picture is more clear:

I was bidding on that Army & Navy 450 NE at Julia's. The bid hit $10,500 and I bid $11K when the lady on the phone kept asking if I wanted to bid $11K? I said yes I told you 11K...oops, sorry, they hammered at $10,500. Second time this happened with Julias.

Happened to me on the Springbok Brevex 416. $10.5K was a steal, so was the 465 Francotte at $12650 including BP. I bought the Hoffman 375 from the unsold lots for less than the original opening bid. A Manton 470 brought $10350 including BP in the unsold lots, another steal.

quote:

Originally posted by Biebs:
Damn! I would have been all over that. I wonder if that's the one McKay bought?

No its not.

Another nice Fraser 577 3"bpe double of similar vintage sold at Rock Island a few years ago:
577 Fraser
A bit more desirable though with original wood, case, etc. Love these old Fraser boxlocks!

quote:

A beautiful Marcel Thys sidelock 577 brought only $18975 including buyer premium at last Julia auction. Presale estimate was $25-35K.

Apparently Hallowell bought it, marked it up $10K: Thys577

Cal, I handled an Army & Navy .577 in George's vault about 3 years ago or so but it weighed about 16 lbs. That's why I passed on it. Same rifle?