I’m heading to Reno, to get fitted and buy my first double rifle. It has taken me a long time to decide on what I want as far as a gun goes and I’ve narrowed it down to two builders. I want to handle both builders’ rifles first, decide and get fitted. Upwards of 20k on a rifle is somewhat of an extravagant expense for me so I keep flip flopping on calibers. Basically when I hit something I want it to know it’s been hit.
Allot of my hunting will be done in North America (Canada) so 450-400 & 375fl seem to be the obvious choices. I do plan on getting to Africa at least once. What I don’t understand about the 450-400 is everyone (I have read every post on the web about these two calibers) says it is a significant step up in power to the 37f fl. This is confusing because it is contrary to the ballistics tables I have studied; the 375fl seems to out shine the 450-400 in energy, velocity and trajectory.
Does anyone on this forum have extensive real hunting experience with both of these calibers? Could someone possibly shed some light for me?
450 Nitro Express is to me the epitome of what a double rifle should be, it just seems extremely impractical for the majority of what my hunting will be. I plan on using this rifle for most if not all of my hunting and will not be able to justify purchasing a second double for many years, or after my kids are grown.

Thanks in advance,
Kelly.

You should get some good, really informed responses to your question - mine won't be one of them. That said, I can't see how you could go wrong with either one based upon your post. Initial thoughts are the 400 will be cheaper to shoot and can use a heavier bullet. The 375 flanged is sexier and potentially slimmer and lighter. Sounds like a good problem to sort out.

I have owned a very nice 450/400 3" and own a very nice 375 FL. If you are going to shoot it a lot in North America, get the 375 FL with a set of QD rings and a good scope. The 375 FL is more than adequate for virtually all African game...maybe a touch light on elephant....and gives you quite a nice trajectory for game out to 250 yds...especially with something like the 270 gr Spire Point bullet.
Good luck with your search and choice.

Gary
DRSS
NRA Lifer
SCI
DSC

quote:

Originally posted by GarBy:
I have owned a very nice 450/400 3" and own a very nice 375 FL. If you are going to shoot it a lot in North America, get the 375 FL with a set of QD rings and a good scope. The 375 FL is more than adequate for virtually all African game...maybe a touch light on elephant....and gives you quite a nice trajectory for game out to 250 yds...especially with something like the 270 gr Spire Point bullet.

Good advice, Gary.

I'd probably stick with the 300gr (KISS).

The .375 fl is the most versatile. In North America it will nicely handle everything. In Africa, elephants are doable...but shot placement is everything. Spend a lot of time practicing and working up loads...and have fun! Congratulations!

Eagle One
DRSS(.450 NE, .375H&H, .45-70)
NRA Benefactor
SCI Life
Africa (2009,2010,2011,2012,2013)

If I was going to spend over $20k on a double rifle, I would seriously look at the round body VC with 2 barrels - one in 375 HH Flanged and one in 450 NE.

If the decision is to keep it to one barrel, I'd for for the 450/400 and load some 300 gr bullets for the smaller game lie moose or even deer and keep the 400 gr bullets for Africa.

A budget alternative is 9,3x74R -which will do everything the .375 Flanged does.

Just my thought.

You can't do it with one DR; your hunting in NA will be different than in Africa in terms of power needed and trajectory required. You didn't say what NA game you will be hunting; need to know that. You should get a 9.3 for NA and African plains game, and a 450 NE for DG. For 20K you can get a Searcy or maybe even Heym, 450 and a Chapuis 9,3. 450 is good on Moose; I downed a Bison with one. If you have to get only one; get the 450-400; it is one of my favorite calibers; I have a K gun in it.
My opinion of course, which is subject to change.

quote:

Originally posted by Nakihunter:
If I was going to spend over $20k on a double rifle, I would seriously look at the round body VC with 2 barrels - one in 375 HH Flanged and one in 450 NE.

If the decision is to keep it to one barrel, I'd for for the 450/400 and load some 300 gr bullets for the smaller game lie moose or even deer and keep the 400 gr bullets for Africa.

In my opinion doing this you loose the sleek feel and light weight that you can get out of a dedicated 375 flanged gun. For what you are doing the choice for me would be clear. 375 flanged all the way.

quote:

Originally posted by husky:
A budget alternative is 9,3x74R -which will do everything the .375 Flanged does.

Just my thought.

Agreed, just not as cool.

quote:

Originally posted by McKay:

quote:

Originally posted by husky:
A budget alternative is 9,3x74R -which will do everything the .375 Flanged does.

Just my thought.

Agreed, just not as cool.

On this side of the pond, the resale will also be higher on the 375.

It's really a question of "what do you intend to do with it".

If you want to hunt Elephant, then the 450/400 has much greater KO power and the penetration at Ele ranges would be more than sufficient.

If you want more versatility, then the .375 has the advantage with better trajectory and energy.

I'm not likely to ever hunt anything more signficant than Cape Buff. As such, while a 450/400 would be nice, it's just not on my list as I'd want more versatility out of the rifle. The .375 will do the job.

So, what do you want to do?

Thanks allot so far guys, some great opinions.
Perhaps I should not have stated a price, I just threw 20k out there, 15 to 17 is more realistic, still ALLOT of money for me.
The two barrel option is not as attractive, for the same reason I don’t like it in my shot guns, weight and balance (just my opinion) but thanks for the suggestion. I forgot about running a spire point for more range that is interesting.
I hunt all North American game; bear, moose, deer, elk if I’m lucky we are pretty lucky in BC as far as availability of game. Ele will probably never be on my list when I go to Africa but I would love to do a DG hunt for buff, if I get hooked more .
Thanks for all your guys help please keep it coming if you have time.

Regards,
Kelly.

Kelly: As you probably already know due to your research on AR, I have a Searcy double rifle in 450-400 and it is the most accurate double rifle ever. With the quarter rib and the built in Talley base, I can shoot it iron sighted, scoped or with my Trijicon RMR. However, I am having Butch build me a 357 H&H Flanged which I am really looking forward to using. I have heard great things about the 375 H&H Flanged and that is why I am going for my second double in that caliber.

how is the 9.3x74 equivalent to the 375FL ???? I posed the same question 9 years ago or so when I was going to order a Searcy. Every one poo pooed the 375 while extolling the merits of the 450..400'3". Now every one is promoting the 375. Things have changed over the years. Mostly cause you can buy 375 FL brass now.,

I now have a new Famars Round action 470 NE and a 360 #2 on Webley long bar action. Maybe the best of both worlds.

If the rifle if primarily going to be used in North America with a possible trip to Africa at some future date, the .375 flanged is the obvious choice. The .375 makes up into a really nice portable rifle that is a joy to carry. However, I would also take a really close look at a 9,3X74R. It is a super caliber for anything in North America and every one I have ever handled carries and points like a fine shotgun. Our friend Todd Williams just took a fine lion with his little 9,3X74. They just plain work. They are a much less costly build and ammo and brass is readily available.

If you do indeed want to spend some money, take a look at the Chapuis REX or the Verney-Carron AZUR:

http://www.chapuis-armes.com/p...ele-rex-serie-3.html

http://www.verney-carron.us/de...008-DEMAS-GB-web.pdf

Ok, based on what game you want to shoot, get a nice 375fl and take bolt trash for your one buff. But really, if all your hunting will be in NA, you can get a pretty nice 9.3 DR for a fraction of your budgeted amount. They are cheaper to build than the bigger ones.

What dpcd said!

I'll agree with all of the statements concerning the 9.3 vs the 375 made here. As Dave mentioned, I did take the lion shown below in my signature line with a Chapuis 9.3x74R in October of this year. It literally hammered him and the video of it is still available on the African Hunting page if you're interested. I have a Trijicon 1.25x4 scope mounted in Recknagel swivel mounts that always return it to zero. My load for the rifle is a 280 gr CEB solid or 250gr Non-con at 2400fps. I took numerous plains game with it as well, a couple over 100 yards. I consider it to be a very versatile little rifle. Paid $4,500 for it if I remember correctly and it has some of the nicest wood you'll ever find.

As Chris states above, the 375 will have a higher resale value on this side of the pond, but then again, it'll cost you plenty more just to get into it in the first place so I don't know if that would be a big determining factor for me.

The 9.3 will work on Buff as well but wouldn't be my first choice. I did have some 3 petal non-cons along if the need to use it on buff presented itself but luckily, it wasn't needed. We shared camp for the first 4 days of my recent safari with a fellow from Brazil who had the exact same rifle (9.3x74R) and he informed me that the gun had accounted for 28 buffalo to date. About half were Cape Buffalo and the other were Water Buffalo of South America. The downside to the 9.3 vs 375FL is that it might not be legal to hunt buff with in all countries so that is a consideration.

Personally, if you are only interested in one double (HA, lots of luck on that one over the long term), I would choose the 450/400. Put a scope on it for longer shots at plains game and just use a solid on the little guys. Most shots in Africa will not be at great distances. Your NA hunts may be different but I think you'll be fine with it scoped.

However, and this will be my set up going forward, I think your best bet is a 9.3x74R paired with a larger bore double such as the 500NE. Put a scope on the 9.3 and have one of the trackers carry it. Then swap guns as necessary once afield.

Todd, that is a beautiful lion, where die you get that cartridge belt?

All the info above is good advice, it depends though on one’s taste and likes and how much money does he want to spend. I find the 9.3x74R to be a good compromise if one wants a rifle in the 375 class. Affordable and ammo is easier to come by and leaves nothing to be desired power wise, but lacks a bit in the nostalgia area.

Hunting in NA, I would go with either one, 375 FL or 9.3x74R, in matter of fact I am going out tomorrow morning on a deer hunt with my Chapius 9.3x74R and in another week before Christmas on wild boar hunt God willing.

Going to Africa, I will take the 450/400 NE even though it is a bit short on speed but it will still do the job nicely. That is why I am experimenting with a new cartridge that will be equivalent to the 500/416 NE in velocity but smaller in size and will use less powder to achieve similar results.
No matter what you do chose make sure to enjoy it. Good luck

Malek
Good shooting/hunting and God's best

Sounds like that cartridge you are experimenting with is called the 416 Remington. Easy to achieve the same velocity with smaller case capacities but you pay the price with higher pressures. I am sure you know all that.

quote:

Originally posted by Double BC:
What I don’t understand about the 450-400 is everyone (I have read every post on the web about these two calibers) says it is a significant step up in power to the 37f fl. This is confusing because it is contrary to the ballistics tables I have studied; the 375fl seems to out shine the 450-400 in energy, velocity and trajectory.

Most hunter's think a better guide to "power" than energy is something like John Taylor's Knock Out value.

Here are some sample figures:

.600 NE 150

.500 NE 86

.450 NE 67

.416 Rigby 57

.450/.400 49

.375 H&H 40

Double BC,

I'm in a very similar situation as you. I've been researching doubles and calibers for about 5 years now and have been saving up (hiding $ from my wife) for it along the way. I'll be getting measured (again) at the upcoming Reno show for my first double.

I am thinking that what I'll end up with may be in the $15-17K range. The gun will be used extensively for deer/bear/boar in California, though they are smaller than the big game you would pursue up north. I was at first keen on the .375 HH but ended up with the .450/400 being the right one for me because of a) from what I've heard about it, b) it will go to Africa for buff and tuskless (if my kids college tuitions don't get to much in the way), and c) that it sounds to be the appropriate big bore cut off point for using a scope. I can't deny that having a cartridge who's name includes the term "Nitro Express" isn't just a wee bit of a turn on. And I suppose that since I've already bought about 5 boxes of Hornady ammmo and a box of Woodleigh bullets for it kind seals the decision.

It's probably going to be a VC. Since Searcy discontinued the field grade last August this regretably simplifies the decision. The field grade currently offered doesn't turn my crank as it apparantly can not be had with options and does not come with a cheek piece. Yea, I know I can get a Searcy for what I plan to spend (and I may very well reconsider this) but with the options I want, the preAugust 2012 Field Grade was my needed starting point. I do like the K guns but again adding the needed options to their basic gun turned me off in terms of where the price ended up. Chapuis just don't do it for me, visually (there is something about the look/lines of the stock and action that feels odd). I almost settled for a Sabatti.... I kind of liked the Blasers but the rubber "weather stripping" between the barrels was tough to swallow. That funny clamp/brace/regulation/whatever around the end of the barrels as well. From talking with Ken the VC seems to be so much more of firm that will help me get where I want is a cost pallatable manner. I do like the Heyms, but again, adding the options I want pushes it beyond what I can accept spending.

Ah, decisions, decisions....

Normally I would recommend the larger diameter 400 but its hard now that I just purchased a 375F

Adam,

Did you buy that Westley Richards 375 Flanged from Hallowell's?
If so, great move, that looked to be a great firearm at a great price!

Kelly,

I have a 450/400 double, very accurate & have taken lion, buff & elephant
with it. I really haven't tried long distance shooting since it is iron sights.
However, I am thinking about a scope set-up which would really make it much
more versatile.

I also had a 9.3x74R double (I traded it off because of excessive recoil!). It
was scoped & accurate, took zebra & a Red Stag in NZ with it.

Overall, I like the 450/400 if you are considering buff or anything
bigger. If not, the 375 Flanged or 9.3 x74R makes a very nice choice,
especially for North American game.

Good luck with your decision.

Jim

quote:

Sounds like that cartridge you are experimenting with is called the 416 Remington. Easy to achieve the same velocity with smaller case capacities but you pay the price with higher pressures. I am sure you know all that.

The 416 Remington is a fine cartridge and does a great job on AG.

What I am working on is a flanged DR cartridge in the NE line. Trying to keep the pressure in the vicinity of the rest of the NE family cartridges we will wait and see, still ways to go.

It should be similar in the knock down power area to the 500/416 NE or the 416 Rigby.

Malek
Good shooting/hunting and God's best

Well, thanks allot Gent’s.

This post has been very helpful for me and hopefully someone else in the same situation as me. Sorry I could not get back sooner as I was doing a concrete pour that ended up running 19hrs yesterday.

Its going to be a 375FL…. Later 450 Nitro.

I’m going this way because I can afford all the options I want(Ken is a really really good salesman) & I believe I’ll get the most use from it. That’s what I want to do, Use it. I plan on hunting extensively with it over the next couple years and really look forward to working up loads (probably allot of questions to follow).
If Africa becomes a reality over the next two years hopefully I’ll be so proficient with the 375 by then the big boy (450) won’t matter as much. Regardless I’m sure I’ll get by alright.

I look forward to posting some picks when the time comes and will update progress after Reno.

Thanks again for the great posts.

I'd say you have a pretty good plan there. And Ken will certainly steer you in the right direction.

http://bradshawgunandrifle.com..._Double_Rifle_1B.php

Bradshaw states in his site that up to 9.3x74R is $9500 and up to 500 NE is $10,500.
Two hand made in America D/R's that are not built on break-open actions, but instead
on the far more strength-superior falling block Farquharson; THAT WILL NEVER COME
"OFF FACE" for 20K, without even asking if he'd discount you for ordering two rifles at one
time. He makes a take down too if you want two bbl sets in two different calibers. He's
gotta be worth a phone call.

I usually shoot Merkels, but the best handling .375 I've seen and shot is the Heym 88B at 8.5 lbs. I can't think of a better handling set-up in a .375 FL, and it fits into your $16-$17 price range. I think they're a little overpriced, but it is what it is, and they are fantastic to shoot. fyi